3/4oz 12ga

[Paul Harm]

I'm always tring to save a buck reloading because the wife and I shoot three times a week [ for about 24 boxes of shells ]. I went to 3/4oz in the 12ga and have found no difference in our scores in skeet or SC's. If anything, the patterns have tightened up a bit. 40 yard clay birds are hit hard with IC chokes. With a shorter shot column less shot is deformed so more of it stays in the pattern. Claybusters sells a wad for 3/4oz in 12ga or 20. In the 12 the loads are all low pressure which makes it nice. Anyone else try these? Paul

[Ed Blake]

Paul - I have loaded about 500 using the new wads and Clay Dot powder. The wads load great on my MEC. If you have switched to 3/4 oz you really need to get some.

[charlie cleveland]

i agree the 3/4 ounce loads really thighten up the patterns. i really dont understand it but seeing is believing... charlie

[John Campbell]

PH:
I mentioned these wads and my experience with the 3/4 oz. 12-bore loads on this forum some weeks ago. As you, I've discovered they are fantastic. If I do my part (which is not always) I can hit ANY clay on my sporting course with 3/4 oz. loads in a cylinder choke gun. What more can you ask?
Since the "Dot" powders seem a bit dirty burning to me, I've gone with the new Alliant Xtra Lite powder. It burns very clean with 3/4 oz. 12-bore loads.

As soon as I burn up my stock of 7/8 oz. "heavy" loads I will only load 3/4 oz. from now on!

Best, Kensal

[Keith Parrish]

Duster wads also makes a 3/4 wad. I have no problem switching to them. Duster will send you a free sample if you ask/email/call them. They always send me 150 of what ever I request. I have always bought 1000 after trying the sample as I really like what I shoot from them.

[Paul Harm]

I'm on my second thousand with the CB-0175-12 wad. CB will also send a free sample. The so called dirty nitro powders don't bother me in the least, it's only the last shot that's dirty, the next one cleans it out and leaves a new deposit. Now you want to talk about dirty barrels, shoot over a 100 black powder shells through your barrels and look down em- now we're talking dirt. But after 15 to 20 minutes they look so pretty again it's worth it. Back to the wads - some guys at my club are so afraid to try em - they just can't believe so little bb's will still break a bird. I guess when you've shot trap with an 1 1/8 of shot for 30 or 40 years ain't no one gonna tell ya 7/8 or 3/4 oz is gonna work and that's that. A lot of the guys shoot either 7/8 or 1oz and three of us have gone to the 3/4oz. It feels great to smash a 40 yarder useing IC choke and 3/4oz of shot. Paul

[charlie cleveland]

paul that 3/4 ounce of shot will also make a doe deer get in high gear...deer been eatin my garden up did not want to kill them so hid and waited and gave her a load at about 60 yards of no8 s...dont think she came back last night... charlie

[Paul Harm]

Shot one of my Parkers today for the first time in about a month - 12ga hammergun with laminate barrels - think it's choked IC and LM - the last 12 targets are in the open and longer than the rest which are in the woods. Must have been on - hit 11/12 and I never do that. Some about 45yds out were smashed. Was high gun with a 44/50 - first time in quite some time - felt good. I'm really sold on those 3/4oz loads. My buddy Dave was shooting 3/4 through his "rusty but trusty" 1882 Remington and also hit the longer ones hard. Paul

[Daryl Corona]

Paul,
I too have switched to the 3/4oz. loads and have had the same results as when I switched from 1oz to 7/8. They are extremely efficient. I am using the Downrange DRXXL orange wad which is a substitute for the the Fed. SO wad. I tried the wads listed in the Hodgdon manual with Clays in a Fiocchi hull but was'nt satisfied with the crimps. Pressure is @6200psi and recoil is very mild. I think there are two main reasons why the load works so well. First, it is an efficient load and very balanced. Second and probably the most important reason is that there is no recoil, enabling you to stay on the gun better for the second shot ( that is considering that you had your face on the stock to begin with:)). For your friends out at your club who don't believe the 3/4oz is a killer load- their loss. They can have all that recoil from their heavy loads and mine too.

[Paul Harm]

Daryl, all my stocks I've bent from 3 to 3 1/4" of DAH so my cheek is never on the stock :). This way I can't lift my head, it's already up. You're probably right on the recoil thing though. Also, with that very shot shot column height in the shell I don't think any shot is getting deformed. Better patterns with less holes. Paul

[Daryl Corona]

Interesting theory Paul. I have a GH Dam 12 with 3 1/4" drop. I'll give it a try. There must be something to the 3"+ dah because a whole lot of Parkers were ordered like that. Maybe this is like the damascus thing before Sherman Bell's work. Should we be buying up all the 3"+ dah Parkers that noone wants and sell them when we prove your theory?

[Paul Harm]

I found that if you put more weight on the front foot and stick your neck out like modern shooters do the gun will mount more to your cheek. If one stands upright with weight equal on both feet you'll mount more to the jaw. A friend bought his first old SxS with lots of drop and said he liked it because he couldn't lift his head, it was already up. That's when I ended my problem of lifting the head, or bad mounts. Now it just comes to the jaw and I don't worry about it. Paul

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Can you please your reloading recipies for your 3/4 0z loads
--powder/ grains/ wads/ hulls/ primers
I am sure alot of us would like to try them out. thanks

[John Campbell]

Harold:
I have one recipe that seems to work. And when I find one that works, I stay with it. This is it:

Win AA or Rem STS case
14 grs. Alliant Extra Lite powder (MEC Bushing #27)
Win 209 or Fiocchi 209 primer
Claybuster CB0175-12 wad (pink)
3/4 oz. of No. 8 shot

According to Claybuster data (included with the wads), this load is 1220 fps. I tried No. 8.5 shot to get a few more pellets, but preferred the No. 8 for some reason.

Best, Kensal

[Paul Harm]

Mine is any Remington hull, 16.4grs of Promo [ same as Red Dot ] , CB-0175 wad, Cheddite primer, and the shot. Clay Dot, Extra Lite, Or Red Dot all give low pressue for 15 to 17 grains. I believe Clays and Clay Dot are the same and Red Dot and Promo are the same. Paul

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Thanks guys for the info. I am new to reloading and loaded up some 7/8 oz 16 ga. loads this weekend using DR 16 wad and green dot. I haven't got to shoot any yet. I was given 2 MEC 600 jr's , a 16 and a twelve, and need to get the necessary components for the 12. I have a Ugartechea 12 sxs under 7 lbs. and also a Francotte 12-also under 7--this would make them much more enjoyable to shoot. Don't have any Parker 12s, but do have a DHE 16,VH 16, and a VH 20. I have a thin face and recoil seems to hit me right on the cheek bone--these loads sound great for that.

[Harold Lee Pickens]

Kensal,
Mec bushing chart shows the #27 bushing yielding 15.8 gr X-lite not 14. Are these bushings actually off that much? Maybe I will have to get a scale-- chart shows #23 bushing@ 13.7 gr. and #24 @ 14.4 gr Extra-lite.

[John Campbell]

Harold:
A scale is always an important accessory. Ne, necessity. As I recall, however, MEC bushings always throw light charges (lawyers) so I generally weigh the charge and go with the recommended weight... whatever bushing provides it. Try both and see what the charges weigh for you. Best to be safe!

Best, Kensal

[Paul Harm]

Harold, it could also be the way the gun fits you. But a light load always will feel better. The new digital scales have come down in price to around $30 and are fast and nice to use. I couldn't live without mine. An adjustable charge bar is also nice. Good luck - Paul

[Mark Ouellette]

Ballistics Products (BPI) sells a great digital scale for $30!!!

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I am not a trap shooter, but I shot with my neighbor at the Lewis Wetzel gun club in Wheeling Wv on Saturday. I brought my 16 ga Rizzini with several boxes of reloads including some 7/8 oz loads with the DR 16 wad. All I can say is I cant wait to reload a bunch more. The difference is like comparing a kiss on the cheek to a slap-- going to get a 3/4 oz bar and try those also.
One of the guys had just loaded 3/4 oz with red dot and the CB oo175 wad. He gave me a box to shoot thru my Francotte 12 and I was so impressed. HE also let me shoot some thru his gas Beretta and it was like shooting a 22. The birds were breaking nicely with this load and it has certainly made me a believer in these light loads.

[Paul Harm]

A friend and I shot a round of clays yesterday, both useing the 3/4oz loads. He had just bought a H&K 12ga SxS with flush choke tubes. He was useing IC and one marked Cyl/Skeet [ whatever that meant ]. Anyways, he was turning them into dustballs at 30yds with the Cyl/skeet choke. I really believe the light loads tighten up whatever choke you're useing. Paul

[David Weber]

I loaded some of the 3/4 loads (clay buster 175 wad, 16.5 grams red dot, fed 209a primers and federal hulls) and finally braved some of this Midwest heat wave to try them out. What a nice load. Very soft on the shoulder and consitant down range hits out to 40 yards. Thanks for all the help

[Craig Larter]

I loaded up and shot a bunch of the 3/4 oz shells using the claybuster wad, clay dot and chedite primers. WOW very nice and effective and the recoil is nothing. I shot these loads in both my Parkers and it is very kind on the old guns and this old shooter. Thanks all Craig

[CraigThompson]

CB-0175 wad. Paul

I don't see a Clay Buster 0175 12 gauge wad in Precision Reloading ?

They do however show a 0178 that is supposed to be their copy of the Winchester WAA12L wad .

[Daryl Corona]

The claybuster 0175 wad is specific for a 3/4oz. load. I used to use the 0178 wad (or WW12L) for my 3/4oz. loads but the since the 0175 came out that's all I use. Took the recipe right off the claybuster sheet in the bag- 15.5gr. Clays, WW209 (I now use Cheddite primers) and either the old AA hulls or Rem. STS/Gun Club. What a wonderful load.

[Dave Suponski]

I think I am gonna give that load a try....:)

[Peter Clark]

I think I am gonna give that load a try....:)
Me too! There is probably a reason I shoot my best scores with the 28 ga., that being low recoil!

[Dave Purnell]

Has anyone seen a published 3/4oz load using PB powder? I have a lot of PB on hand that I use for 7/8oz loads.

Dave

[Daryl Corona]

Dave;
Check out the Hodgdon website. They have plenty of 24g loads at low pressure and modest velocity. 3/4oz is 21g. I've played with a 13/16oz load which is 23g. Drop me a PM or call and I'll fill you in on what I've got.
Daryl

[Paul Harm]

Use the same powder charge as the 7/8 load. Over on another reloading forum they say to use a load for one of the higher velocity loads for a clean burn.

[Steve McCarty]

PH:
I mentioned these wads and my experience with the 3/4 oz. 12-bore loads on this forum some weeks ago. As you, I've discovered they are fantastic. If I do my part (which is not always) I can hit ANY clay on my sporting course with 3/4 oz. loads in a cylinder choke gun. What more can you ask?
Since the "Dot" powders seem a bit dirty burning to me, I've gone with the new Alliant Xtra Lite powder. It burns very clean with 3/4 oz. 12-bore loads.

As soon as I burn up my stock of 7/8 oz. "heavy" loads I will only load 3/4 oz. from now on!

Best, Kensal

Don't these 3/4 loads behave like what it would be like to shoot a 2" shell? I've read that 2"ers throw very even patterns and I'm sure the recoil is very light.

I wonder where the point of deminishing returns is. If 3/4 oz loads pattern better than 7/8s then does a 5/8 load patten even better? I mean eventually you are going to run out of shot!

Sorry, just thinking.

[John Campbell]

Steve:
Nice to know there are still thinking people out there. Mostly on this august forum! And all I can say to your posit is that there probably IS a tipping point for the 12-bore. And personally, I think it's just below 3/4 oz. But precisely where, I don't know.

Those who would like to understand the truth of shotgun pattens are urged to get a copy of "The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns" by Oberfell and Thompson.

Their discoveries were only enhanced by the one-piece plastic wad. Never refuted.

Best, Kensal

[Steve McCarty]

Steve:
Nice to know there are still thinking people out there. Mostly on this august forum! And all I can say to your posit is that there probably IS a tipping point for the 12-bore. And personally, I think it's just below 3/4 oz. But precisely where, I don't know.

Those who would like to understand the truth of shotgun pattens are urged to get a copy of "The Mysteries of Shotgun Patterns" by Oberfell and Thompson.

Their discoveries were only enhanced by the one-piece plastic wad. Never refuted.

Best, Kensal

Thanks Kensal.

I shoot one oz loads in my 12s and 7/8 oz loads in my 20's. Most people, I think, do.

However, when I actually start reloading shotshells, I'm going to pour 3/4 oz loads in my 12s and probably the same in my 20s. Today, I'm shooting a 20 at skeet, because I've found a little gun that fits me like a glove. Not a fancy gun, a Remington model 11! I doubt it'd cycle extremely light loads.

I have three 20's choked F/M. An ancient Baker, an Ithaca 500 and a Miroku O/U. The Ithaca is mint and I have never shot it. It is light as a feather and I'm not going to touch it. The Baker is my dad's old gun, made in 1903 and I'm not going to mess with it either, but the Charles Daly Miroku I'm going to have choke tubes installed. Years ago I shot it a lot and it's pretty beat up. (hanging in the rack in my friends Power Wagon) In that gun I'll be able to shoot any weight load I choose.

For shooting skeet I like a heavier gun. At first I shot light guns, but I find the swinging best with a heavy gun. I also prefer long tubes. Yeah, I know folks like short barrels, for skeet, but not me. I also like autos because they absorb recoil and after a few rounds of 25 it makes a diff. However I'm always running around picking up empties. I'd rather have a good double that I can shoot as well as my autos.

I'd like a heavy double, maybe a DH or VH bored skeet/skeet or maybe IC and Mod. I think modified is a good choke for the second going away bird.

One of my skeet shooting buddies shoots a Model 12 bored full and he does pretty well with it! He shoots it at clays. He doesn't use it all of the time, but he does it just for kicks. He dusts the birds he hits.

I am still searching for my perfect skeet gun. For trap I shoot my SBC. For doubles at trap my Model 12, 12 ga or a Miroku O/U 12, but I usually don't shoot doubles.

[Paul Harm]

Steve, your Model 11 will shot any loads. I have 3 of them and I'll try to explain how to adjust one for heavy, medium, or light loads. With the bolt back, put the butt on the floor and push the barrel all the way down. While holding it down unscrew the knob on the end of the forearm. Remove the knob and forearm. Slowly let the barrel up and remove it. For heavy loads you should have the spring next to the receiver; then friction ring with a bevel next to spring toward receiver; then bronze friction piece. For medium loads - friction ring next to receiver with bevel away from receiver toward muzzle; then spring; then bronze piece. For light loads the bronze piece next to receiver; then spring; then friction ring with bevel toward muzzle. After you get everything the way you want it, push the barrel back down and install the forearm and knob. Always start with the heavy set up and ONLY go to a lighter set up if a shell won't eject. Failure to do so will result in excessive recoil, broken forarms and excessive wear. I copied most of that from a old Remington instruction booklet. It's good for any " humpback" gun. I keep a Remington Model 11 out at the club set for the light 3/4oz loads for new young shooters. Their dads will show up with some light single shot and factory ammo that kicks like hell. They want to quit. I give them the Model 11 and 3/4oz loads and they start having fun. And they get to say they're shooting a " big 12ga". The Model 11 was built from 1905 to 1950 in 12ga. In 1930 a 20 ga was offered, and in 1931 a 16ga. From 1941 to 1946 some 60,000 were built for the military. Mine have the poly choke which seem to be a nice addition with the high receiver. Now the end of the barrel is as high as the receiver.

[Steve McCarty]

Steve, your Model 11 will shot any loads. I have 3 of them and I'll try to explain how to adjust one for heavy, medium, or light loads. With the bolt back, put the butt on the floor and push the barrel all the way down. While holding it down unscrew the knob on the end of the forearm. Remove the knob and forearm. Slowly let the barrel up and remove it. For heavy loads you should have the spring next to the receiver; then friction ring with a bevel next to spring toward receiver; then bronze friction piece. For medium loads - friction ring next to receiver with bevel away from receiver toward muzzle; then spring; then bronze piece. For light loads the bronze piece next to receiver; then spring; then friction ring with bevel toward muzzle. After you get everything the way you want it, push the barrel back down and install the forearm and knob. Always start with the heavy set up and ONLY go to a lighter set up if a shell won't eject. Failure to do so will result in excessive recoil, broken forarms and excessive wear. I copied most of that from a old Remington instruction booklet. It's good for any " humpback" gun. I keep a Remington Model 11 out at the club set for the light 3/4oz loads for new young shooters. Their dads will show up with some light single shot and factory ammo that kicks like hell. They want to quit. I give them the Model 11 and 3/4oz loads and they start having fun. And they get to say they're shooting a " big 12ga". The Model 11 was built from 1905 to 1950 in 12ga. In 1930 a 20 ga was offered, and in 1931 a 16ga. From 1941 to 1946 some 60,000 were built for the military. Mine have the poly choke which seem to be a nice addition with the high receiver. Now the end of the barrel is as high as the receiver.

Thanks for the info, Paul, on my Model 11. I just returned from shooting it at my skeet club and I did okay with it. I like the gun. Years ago I set it up for light loads. It does not seem to beat itself up so I think it's set correctly. I'm shooting 7/8oz #9s. However, I do see a lot of Model 11s and Auto 5s with cracked forearms, so they were incorrectly regulated.

John Browning, after all of the wonderful guns he designed, said that his most difficult was the Auto 5! Isn't that strange. I used to instruct on the M2 HB "MaDuce" and I always thought it a pretty complex design. Interesting gun to shoot.

My gun has the Polycoke attached too and I like it. Someone told me that they pattern well wit open chokes and not so well when closed. Don't know if that's true or not.

Just so you know, when Robt Stack won the jr sheet shooting championship he was shooting a Model 11 with a Cutts Compensator attached. I think it was a 12, but can't recall.

There are no fleas on a Rem Model 11 and they are much cheaper than the Browning of the same design. Savage/Stevens made one too. None of the parts interchange.

[Paul Harm]

Browning thought it was his best design because it could use black powder or nitro - the only auto that can to this day. Of course today no one designs modern shotguns to shoot BP.

[Steve McCarty]

Browning thought it was his best design because it could use black powder or nitro - the only auto that can to this day. Of course today no one designs modern shotguns to shoot BP.

I didn't know about the BP. I had read that he made the gun to shoot heavy and light loads though.

[Paul Bridges]

Does anyone know of a recipe to use the CB0175 with Federal Paper hulls? I have a ton of the paper target hulls (I like them for black powder). I was wondering if I could load some of these 3/4 oz in Federal paper hulls with Claydot. Any thoughts?

[Paul Harm]

You could use them in Federal shells but they're a straight wall hull and the Cb wad may be a bit loose. Call CB and they'll tell you what can/can't be done. Let us know what they say. Paul

[Chuck Bishop]

Pauly, those Federal papers aren't good for anything. I'd be happy to take them off your hands.:bigbye::rolleyes:

[Steve McCarty]

Does anyone know of a recipe to use the CB0175 with Federal Paper hulls? I have a ton of the paper target hulls (I like them for black powder). I was wondering if I could load some of these 3/4 oz in Federal paper hulls with Claydot. Any thoughts?

When you load BP do you use fiber wads or can you use shot cups like we use in smokeless loads?

[Ed Blake]

If you use plastic wads with black powder you will have a mess in your bores. The high temps made by the black powder will melt the plastic. Always use fibre wads with black powder loads.

[Paul Bridges]

I never use plastic wads with black powder. I use fiber wads in brass, zinc (Alcan) or Federal paper hulls. I have used Fg and FFg. I want to try loading some very light smokeless load in my Damascus guns. I shot some Polywad vintners in my PH, and it seemed to like them. I have shot standard factory smokeless loads in it (and in my GHs), but they are getting mighty old. I have some 3" brass shells I am going to load up with Fg for my Ithaca heavy duck one day soon. That may be fun.

I guess I'll give CB a call and ask them about using these 0175. Alliant shows a pretty good 7/8 recipe using Clay Dot and CB2100-12 (12S0) only 6400 in pressure! I may just try that one.

[Paul Harm]

That 1F can get dirty - I used it years ago in a 8ga muzzleloader I made but now a days I use 2 or 3F in my 12 or 10ga guns. 75grs of 3F and 1oz of shot is a nice load. At one time I loaded 94grs/3f and 1oz of shot - now that's a nice load to scare the dickens out of guys on the skeet range when they don't except it. Problem is with the cost of BP that extra 20 grains adds up in a hurry. If all I have is 2F I'll go around 85grs/ 1oz of shot, and 75grs/3f with 1oz. The 3F burns quicker than 2F so a little less is needed.

[Steve McCarty]

If you use plastic wads with black powder you will have a mess in your bores. The high temps made by the black powder will melt the plastic. Always use fibre wads with black powder loads.

Thanks. I'll make sure to load fiber wads when shooting BP.

To date all of my BP shotgun shooting has been in an antique muzzle loader and it is a great shooter. It is an English gun and has all of the attributes of those slim, light English shotguns.

[charlie cleveland]

boy some of them old big bore guns were power eating monsters..i read of one guy using 16 drams of black..said it gave him bad bad head aches....ive fired 7 drams and it aint to pleasant to shoot but 16 drams not for me....always liked what a 2 ga shooter once said when asked how much shot and powder he used in the gun...he said powder by the handfull and a pound of shot or so.... charlie

[Paul Harm]

Charlie, in that 8ga muzleloader I made I use to shoot 15drams [ 400grs ] of 1F and 4oz of shot. Good thing it weighed 15 pounds. Twice it pushed me over flat on my back.

[charlie cleveland]

sounds like the recoil was very severe...did the old gun throw a good pattern...boy you was actually shooting 4 ga loads woulda loved to have seen you shooting that 8... charlie

[Paul Harm]

It was more of a hugh shove than a kick. I put about .010 choke in the barrels and at 60yds with #2's it would completly cover an open newspaper. Was great on geese coming in to decoys in farm fields. Roll them babies over. That's the one that went off in my brothers pickup as we drove down a farm lane. Took the back window out and caught the seat on fire [ the top was glowing and smoking ] . My poor brother rolled out the door doing about 10MPH. Man, that sucker was loud with the windows rolled up. We laugh about it now - well, kind of did then when the shock wore off.

[charlie cleveland]

we nned to more about this storey...im smiling now thinking about it... i just can t get over 15 drams of black powder....charlie

[Paul Harm]

It was a 8ga O/U muzzleloader with sidehammers - no half cock notch. Made it with a monte-carlo stock and recoil pad and I think now it was more like 20lbs - my 48" barrel 54cal flinklock chunk gun weighed 15lbs. Anyways, three of them were made. One for my friend who made the locks and triggers, one for the brother-in law who made the barrels, and one for me - I inletted, stocked, browned the barrels and finished them up. First year couldn't hit anything because I was shooting buck shot - 30, 30cal round balls. That was when the brother and I were going down a lane in his pickup and he wanted me to unload it. The gun ws resting against the seat between us and I bent over decapping the top barrel. When I tried to take the second cap off the hammer slipped out of my finger touching it off. BIG BOOM. I was just dumping the buckshot down the barrel after the OS wad. Was told latter if you do that the balls will try and squeeze in the air pockets as they go down the barrel. They should lay in flat layers. Anyways, I patterned the gun with #2 shot [ and had choked the barrels about .010 ] and they would cover an opened newspaper at 60yds. Gun shot great after that.