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waclifton
04-30-2012, 09:39 PM
Hi, I've inherited a Parker double, Serial 219233. It's a Model BHE trap gun, with 32" barrels, a ventilated rib (with front bead), and double triggers.

Apparently during it's lifetime, the stock was pieced to raise the comb. It's a good job, but obviously not the original configuration. The cost of having a new stock fitted is beyond my budget, so I'm considering to either have the stock refinished, or to just sell the gun outright. The finish on the stock right now is "crazed", and it has an aftermarket butt pad installed.

Anyway, I'm searching for advice and suggestions, and the members of thos Association are clearly who I'd like to get advice from.

Here are a few pictures:

Wayne Clifton
Pittsburgh, PA

Robert Delk
04-30-2012, 11:49 PM
I'd just lose the adjustable pad,put on a regular pad that fit you for length and shoot the gun as is.You might have to have the comb brought down some to fit you also. If you're not a shooter put it on one of the auction sites such as Gunbroker and see what she brings. Looks like she could be a nice gun with some stock work done.

Jim DiSpagno
04-30-2012, 11:56 PM
Book says a B grade Acme steel barrels ejectors capped pistol grip. NO VENT RIB NO MONTE CARLO STOCK AND NO LARGE OR BEAVERTAIL FORE END.
12 ga. 32" length.

Dean Romig
05-01-2012, 12:02 AM
Probably went back to Parker for the BTFE as it has the correct iron for the BTFE reinforcing screw.

waclifton
05-01-2012, 12:52 AM
You'll have to help me. BTFE ? ? ? ?

Also, can anyone recommend a stock artist anywhere near me?

Would a PGCA research give me anymore information on the alterations??



Probably went back to Parker for the BTFE as it has the correct iron for the BTFE reinforcing screw.

Dean Romig
05-01-2012, 12:57 AM
BTFE is Beavertail Forend.

A research letter may provide more information on your gun. On the lower grades, probably not, but in the higher grades like yours it is more likely that there is some interesting provenance linked to your gun.

Others can respond to a stock man in your area.

Christopher Lien
05-01-2012, 01:25 AM
Wayne, An interesting Parker... Can you post some photos of the vent rib, and also the area where the barrels/dolls head meet with the top of the receiver?

Best, CSL
________________________

Dave Suponski
05-01-2012, 08:17 AM
I think I would just have the wood striped and refinished to remove the crazing and leave it alone.What a wonderful gun...

waclifton
05-01-2012, 09:33 AM
You guys are way over my head with terminology. Can you please describe what "the barrels/dolls head" means? I'm really not at your knowledge level with the terms.

Anyway, here are the only pictures I have presently of the rib. Let me know if, by sheer luck, I captured the right area. If not, and with a little guidance, I can take more.

Jim DiSpagno
05-01-2012, 10:38 AM
Please try to take a pic of the top of the rib showing any and all inscriptions. This appears to be a Simmons made rib at first glance. Thanks, Jim

waclifton
05-01-2012, 11:47 AM
Here are new pictures of the rib.

Also, I made a mistake in the first post. The serial number is 219623. (Probably an age thing - mine, not the gun's.)

Jim DiSpagno
05-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Definitely order a letter on the gun. Apparently it went back to the factory for some work/upgrades. Jim

edgarspencer
05-01-2012, 07:26 PM
When you do send the gun out for the stock work, have the stock maker remove that pin through the side panels and properly repair what must be an old crack. That area can be filled, and when the checkering is re-cut, it will never show.

waclifton
05-01-2012, 07:55 PM
I really appreciate all of the input and suggestions. Thanks.

Just a couple questions. Although I hate to take advantage of all of this expertise, I just can't resist.

First, does anyone know of a good stock guy anywhere Pittsburgh. I found a Gary Stiles, but don't have any references for his work.

And finally, is there any chance that anyone has an original butt plate laying around that they would be willing to part with?? The stock is apparently a size 1 1/2. (Hey, no harm in trying.)

Wayne

Chuck Bishop
05-01-2012, 08:59 PM
Craig Libhart of Susquehanna Stockworks is in Bainbridge, just south of Harrisburg. Member of the gun guild. Great guy and does great work.

http://www.susquehannastockworks.com/index.html

Jim DiSpagno
05-01-2012, 10:11 PM
Measure the end of the butt stock at its widest and longest and I'll see what I have. Jim

George Lander
05-01-2012, 11:07 PM
Wayne: To answer your earlier question the "Doll's Head" is the top rib extension which fits into a slot in the action body. Sometimes Simmons vent ribs are marked "Simmons, Inc." in very small letters on the left side near the breech. You have a beautiful B Grade Parker & I would take Dave's advice & have the original wood refinshed by an expert in either tung oil or linspeed. JMHO

Best Regards, George

Dave Suponski
05-01-2012, 11:13 PM
The vent rib on your gun is a Parker rib. Also the frame sculpting where the rib meets the barrels is correct for a factory built vent rib gun.

Bill Murphy
05-02-2012, 08:18 AM
Yup, Parker factory vent rib, sent out that way when first built. Our reference for serial numbers only addresses the automatic ejector option. A PGCA letter will possibly address other original options such as the beavertail forend and ventilated rib. We need at least one additional picture, that being a picture of the bottom of the barrels at the area where the forend attaching lug is and rearward. Another would be the front of the forend where there should be the head of a reinforcing screw. If you can talk Craig Libhart into working on your gun, let him do all woodwork, including the proper fixing of the stock head, the finishing, and the recoil pad installation. The attachment of the grip cap with many pins is a result of the person working on the stock not knowing how the cap was originally installed, which was not with a multitude of pins. Classy looking though.

Bill Murphy
05-02-2012, 08:29 AM
We really haven't seen pictures of the forend checkering pattern from the sides and bottom. Don't worry, we won't get tired of giving you information or viewing your pictures. If you don't want to face the restoration of the wood parts of this Parker, you would have no trouble selling it in its present condition.

waclifton
05-02-2012, 12:07 PM
OK, here are the required pictures - I hope. If I missed something, let me know, and I'll take more.

I'm mailing the PGCA letter request today, and as soon as I can get the current butt plate off, I'll do the measurements of the actual wood.

waclifton
05-02-2012, 12:41 PM
I measured the wood on the end of the butt stock, and it's 1 5/8" by 4 5/8".

With the added piece to raise the comb, I'm thinking now that an original pad won't work, but maybe you can tell me if that's true.

Chuck Bishop
05-02-2012, 01:43 PM
I used to hate that curved Morgan Recoil Pad. To even call it a recoil pad is obscene.

Personally, I wouldn't try and put on a original recoil pad if you plan on shooting it a lot. I'd put on a KickEzz or Decelerator for more comfort.

Take the pad off and trace the butt on a piece of paper. Take that paper to a gunshop that sells recoil pads. Match the pad up with the outline on the paper. Make sure you get one oversized slightly so it can be ground down to fit.

waclifton
05-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I agree that the Morgan pad is ugly, and I'd still love to get an original pad.

I doubt if I'll ever shoot the gun - I'll either keep it as a family heirloom or sell it. Either way, the Morgan has to go.

Chuck Bishop
05-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Here is a source for either original or reproduction pads. I would think any of the pads other than the ones for Winchester would be period correct. Others may give other sources and answers.

http://www.csmcspecials.com/category_s/18.htm

Bill Murphy
05-02-2012, 09:18 PM
I can't figure out the picture of the forend lug. Can you give us a picture of the forend lug and area toward the breech from an angle directly toward the barrels, not at an angle.

Dave Suponski
05-02-2012, 09:28 PM
Bill, If you look at the breech end of the lug the radius would indicate the beavertail forend lug which would be correct. A splinter lug is straight across there.

Dean Romig
05-02-2012, 09:40 PM
Yup, that is clearly the one-piece reinforced forend lug.

George Lander
05-02-2012, 11:22 PM
Looks all original Parker yo me. A genuine Silver's pad might be a good choice as well.

Best Regards, George

waclifton
05-03-2012, 10:36 AM
I have an additional picture showing the top of the receiver, so I thought I'd add it. Don't know if it helps anything, but I figure it can't hurt.

Bill Murphy
05-03-2012, 11:15 AM
When I was looking at the picture of the lug, I was creating an optical illusion in my mind. Yes, the beavertail forend was a factory installation. By the way, a double trigger Trap is a scarce combination. Most Traps were equipped with the Parker single trigger. By now, you should be getting private messages from people who would offer to purchase your gun. If you pay dues to the PGCA, you will save money on your letter and also have the privilege to offer your gun for sale on the Members section of the website.

edgarspencer
05-03-2012, 11:43 AM
Looks all original Parker yo me. A genuine Silver's pad might be a good choice as well.

Best Regards, George

Really? I am having a hard time believing Parker would have made a Monte Carlo stock by splicing a piece on top, or the adjustable butt plate. I agree, a Silvers, Jostam or Noshok pad would look correct.

waclifton
05-03-2012, 11:47 AM
Hi Bill. Thanks for the advice. FYI, I joined the PGCA a very short time ago, and mailed the research letter request yesterday.

You are right on the purchase offers. I'm already hearing from other members, and I haven't even listed it for sale.

I've really been impressed by the number of members that have jumped in to advise me on the gun. I'm wrestling with whether to keep it as a family heirloom or just sell it. I'm 69-years-old, and if anything happens to me, my wife won't have a clue of how to dispose of it - and my several other guns.

If anyone you know might have an interest in the Parker, please point them in my direction.

Here are my contact options:

Wayne Clifton
Pittsburgh, PA
Home - 412-488-3030
Cell - 412-551-5910

waclifton
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
Probably an area that I overlooked in this whole exchange is the trigger situation. When I received the gun, it has a single "release" trigger. The risk of someone picking up the gun without knowing that seemed to be a risk that I wasn't willing to take, so I sent the gun to Larry DelGrego in New York. He said that he had a set of original Parker double triggers, so I had him swap them.

edgarspencer
05-03-2012, 12:46 PM
Probably an area that I overlooked in this whole exchange is the trigger situation. When I received the gun, it has a single "release" trigger. The risk of someone picking up the gun without knowing that seemed to be a risk that I wasn't willing to take
I don't understand. What was your concern?
I sent the gun to Larry DelGrego in New York. He said that he had a set of original Parker double triggers, so I had him swap them.
I went back and looked at the original post, and I missed it before, but it looks like the whole floorplate was swapped out, as the single trigger floorplate differs from the double trigger floorplate. I hope he returned your Single trigger, floorplate, etc, as that is worth a lot by itself, and certainly to anyone who buys the gun, for originality. The floorplate is serial numbered to the gun.

Dean Romig
05-03-2012, 05:55 PM
I agree totally with your second point Edgar.

However, I understand Wacliffton's concern over the release trigger should someone unfamiliar with the gun attempt to use it.

edgarspencer
05-03-2012, 07:43 PM
It's been so long that I was an 'active' clay shooter, I pretty much forgot about true release triggers, although I never owned a gun with one anyway. I started out life, at least as shotguns were concerned, as a live bird shooter, and going back and forth between clays, and complex competition guns would have been a distinct issue.
I have to assume if the OP's gun was owned by an active trap shooter, then he found a gunsmith who could fit such a mechanism into a Parker, but certainly it's so new a contraption, I can't imagine Parker ever offered such a tarnation.
I guess I have to agree, in retrospect, it would have been a pretty dangerous contraption to someone unfamiliar, though, at least for me, picking up another man's gun without permission is a no-no.
I still have trouble transitioning from a pair to a single. I still love my old 101 skeet gun, but being somewhat of a curmudgeon, think single triggers belong on rifles.

John Dallas
05-03-2012, 09:46 PM
Trap guns with release triggers always have decal on the stock or barrels announcing it is a release. Is that a "Rule", or just common sense?

waclifton
05-03-2012, 09:53 PM
This gun never had a decal that I ever saw. However, knowing the owner as I do (did), he probably thought that it detracted from the beauty of the gun.

Chuck Bishop
05-03-2012, 09:55 PM
There is no rule, at least in ATA trapshooting. It is however a good idea. There are to many modern trap guns that look almost identical. The decals are usually orange and have a big R in the middle and are usually on the bottom of the pistol grip. It's very unlikely that someone now would pick up the wrong Parker unless you were at a vintage shoot but I understand the OP for siding on the side of safety.

Christopher Lien
05-04-2012, 07:07 AM
Probably an area that I overlooked in this whole exchange is the trigger situation. When I received the gun, it has a single "release" trigger. The risk of someone picking up the gun without knowing that seemed to be a risk that I wasn't willing to take, so I sent the gun to Larry DelGrego in New York. He said that he had a set of original Parker double triggers, so I had him swap them.
------------------------------------------------------

It was mentioned earlier there was a "single "release" trigger" in this gun, but it was sent to DelGrego for a conversion back to double triggers... It should be noted the stamped "R", "S", "L" letters on the top tang above the safety suggests that at some point in this Parker's life it may have also had one of the early Miller single triggers with barrel selection controlled by the safety... I hope Wayne did not have DelGrego remove a perfectly good Miller trigger from this interesting old BHE Trap...???

Best, CSL
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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParkerBHE_TrapTopC.jpg
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http://www.webpak.net/~cslien/1ParkerBHE_TrapTopB.jpg
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.

Dean Romig
05-04-2012, 08:29 AM
I was thinking the same thing Chris

waclifton
05-04-2012, 10:03 AM
OK, now you've gone and confused me. (Not a hard thing to do.)

Whatever brand of trigger was in the gun, and regardless of what is etched on the safety, the trigger that was in the gun was absolutely a single "release" trigger.

I was under the impression that the trigger that was in there at the time could not be modified to act as a normal trigger, and the whole thing had to be replaced. Are you saying that wasn't the case?

edgarspencer
05-04-2012, 10:18 AM
If DelGreco gave you back the old trigger plate, can you post a picture of the underside of it?

waclifton
05-04-2012, 10:31 AM
I didn't get it back. However, I may call him today and see, if by some miracle, he still has it. I'm not holding out much hope, but it's worth a try.

Mark Conrad
05-04-2012, 10:43 AM
Typical trapshooters gun. They keep changing the gun to hit more targets when the problem is the guy pointing the gun.

The gun left the factory with a vent rib, SST, trap forend, cpg. The early SST's were poor and it looks like Miller put the early trigger in with the selector in the safety. Then a release and now double triggers. Too bad the wood has been altered.

Mark

waclifton
05-04-2012, 10:55 AM
Sorry Mark, but I have to take exception to your unkind remark. It's like saying "don't tune the engine in your race car . . you're not winning races because you're a bad driver".

When the previous owner passed, and we cleaned his house, we had to toss at least a hundred trap-shooting trophies and awards. I remember one that said he was Pennsylvania Live Bird Shooting Champion. Many, many, said "200 out of 200". You don't get those awards by "uselessly tuning your instrument"!!

Christopher Lien
05-04-2012, 01:15 PM
It's like saying "don't tune the engine in your race car . . you're not winning races because you're a bad driver".

When the previous owner passed, and we cleaned his house, we had to toss at least a hundred trap-shooting trophies and awards. I remember one that said he was Pennsylvania Live Bird Shooting Champion. Many, many, said "200 out of 200". You don't get those awards by "uselessly tuning your instrument"!!
-----------------------------------------------

Using another car analogy. For some shooters, removing a Miller single trigger from a Parker and replacing it with double triggers would be like taking the 427/435hp tri-power motor out of a 1967 Corvette and replacing it with a 283/185hp 2 barrel from 1957. In other words it would be like uselessly de-tuning your instrument, but you would get better gas mileage.:)... As mentioned earlier, hope it wasn't a Miller that DelGrego removed...

To some folks in the double gun world, a Miller trigger is a special option that could enhance the value and appeal of an early Parker trap gun... How long ago was it that DelGrego removed the single trigger from your BHE?.. Maybe you could ask him if he still has it or remembers what type of trigger it actually was?...

As for the many trophies and awards you mentioned, such as "Pennsylvania Live Bird Shooting Champion", it would be a damn shame if they indeed went into the trash. Some of those items may have also added greatly to the provenance and value of your Parker... What was the mans name who won all of the trophies and awards?... Perhaps we can provide you with some additional information on his past shooting history and achievements...

Best, CSL
__________________________
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waclifton
05-04-2012, 02:54 PM
First of all, the man's name was William J. Wise (Bill).

Please keep in mind that we're not collectors, and we were just a family cleaning out a house to sell. The trophies and awards were memories of his, and meant much less to us. The decisions to toss were pragmatic ones, based on the thought of where to store all that stuff. Our thoughts at the time were focused on trying to sell a quarter million dollar house, and not in adding a thousand or two in future value to a gun.

And as far as "de-tuning" a car -- I should mention that I just replaced a six-cylinder in my '57 Chevy with a built 350, so you were more accurate than you knew. But I digress . .

The comment that I originally reacted to was aimed at the previous owner and how his tweaking the gun was an effort to improve what was a poor shooter. My reaction was to explain that even a concert musician occasionally tunes his/her instrument. My conversion, not Bill's, to double triggers, was simply a safety issue (in my mind), and not to improve any shooting ability (of which I have none). In my entire 50+ hunting years, I've never been known to hit anything in the air. Never.

As far as anyone remembering Bill, here is a picture of him - and My Great Aunt:

Chuck Bishop
05-04-2012, 04:12 PM
Wayne,

Please don't take offense to what Mark Conrad said. He wasn't directing his comments to you or William Wise. What he said is something that every long time trapshooter has done. Search for that extra target. They will go to any length to get that 1 out of 1000 extra target that may win for them and that includes modifying $10k+ shotgun with every gadget known to man. Ask me how I know:whistle:

For most of us (William Wise is an exception) it's a fruitless pursuit. The old adage is true. It's the Indian, not the arrow! My apologies to any Indians out there!

waclifton
05-21-2012, 10:48 AM
For anyone still interested, I finally have the official details on the BHE - from a PGCA Research Letter.

BHE hammerless
12-gauge
Optional single trigger
Trap forend
Ventilated rib
Acme steel
32-inch barrels
2 5/8" chambers
Capped pistol grip
Length of pull - 14 1/2"
Drop at comb - 1 5/8"
Drop at heel - 2 1/4"
Weight - 7 pounds, 15 ounces
Completed - January, 1927
Pricing - $313, plus $24 (trap forend), $39 (ventilated rib)

I hope that corrects all of the discussions to-date.

And just one more question: The PGCA web page discusses "Repair Codes", and I was wondering if there is somewhere I should look to see if I have any of those.

Thanks again for all of your help, advice, and suggestions. It's been a great learning experience.

Wayne

Robin Lewis
05-21-2012, 10:59 AM
It states on that web page that they are located thus: "Stamped on Left hand, top rear of barrel". Look for two or three letters stamped there. My experience is that they are not all that common, so don't be surprised if the gun doesn't have any.