Type of Solder?

[Eric Estes]

Does anyone know if Parker used a lead/tin soft solder to lay the top rib or did they use a silver solder of some type?

I assume they used a higer temp solder to join the barrels and attach the lug or would that have been a soft solder too?

So for modern repair, relaying a top rib, do people use a plain lead/tin solder or is a low temp silver solder like Brownell's Hi Force 44 preferred?

Thanks for any info you can share.

[John Hancock]

Eric, Any of the Silver solders require too much heat, as does the Hi Force. The only solder you want to use is Brownells Tix Soft Solder. Be very careful with heat, don't try and use anything that builds more heat than a propane torch and you will have the best luck with a tip that gives a "broad" flame as opposed to a "pointed" flame. If you are attaching a top rib use one of the "heat stop" paste compounds on the bottom rib. Keep the heat on the bbls. and let the heated area melt the solder at the juncture. Important, be very careful with the heat. Too much heat will cause the bbls. to swell more than you want and when they cool they will "shrink" where you heated them and cause the tube to be smaller (ID and OD) where you heated it. Just as soon as the solder flows get the heat away. The temperature of the bbls. will continue to rise for a few moments. Don't force cool. Of course there is a lot more than I mentioned depending on wheather just a spot repair or laying the entire rib, methods of holding the rib ect. Hope this is helpful. Regards, John Hancock

[Eric Eis]

John it sounds as if you have done this a few times.... Gunsmith ?

[John Hancock]

Yes have done this quite a few times, not a Gunsmith, just old. Regards, John Hancock

[Eric Estes]

Thanks for the information John. Any idea what the composition of the Tix solder is? 50/50, 60/40? Brownells did not state it although I was surprised how low the melt temp is compared to others.

I will be wiring and wedging it up good with some heat sinking on the bottom rib and lugs in particular, but with propane heat and solder that low temp I should have no troubles as long as I take the time to prep and tin properly.

It was interesting what was under the top rib. Luckily very little coorosion since I only had a couple loose spots, and towards the breech there was a lot of resious stuff which I assume was old flux, but the forward 2/3 there was a white clay type material packed tightly in a nice "V" in the gap, completely filling it. It was very clean and very white like chalk or real fine clay dried out. You could crumble it between your fingers and it resulted in a fine white powder that felt clay like.

I saw this mentioned a while back by someone else on another thread and it was speculated that it was just flux. I saw flux, but this other stuff seemed more like a filler or heat sink material of some type. Has anyone else seen this or have any thoughts?

[John Hancock]

Eric, I don't know what composition Tix is but I suspect it is almost all tin. I have used it for 20 or 25 years, mostly on Brownings, and 2 or 3 Parkers. I have seen the "clay" in Parkers and Win 21's and don't know what it was. I don't think it is flux, wondered if it could have been used to "balance" the bbls. The English talk of balancing the bbls. before and seperate from balancing the gun. Regards, John Hancock

[Chuck Heald]

Just my 2 cents as a manufacturing engineer. My information is that almost all the guns of the Parker, Ithaca, LC Smith, Fox, etc., era are assembled with essentially eutectic (ratio giving lowest melting point of the constituents) lead (Pb) and tin (Sn) (63% tin/37% lead) or very close to that alloy. This type of solder melts around 360-380F. The breach of the barrels are brazed together on a Parker using a much higher melting temperature alloy. This is often an alloy that has silver added for strength. This temperature often is in the 1000-1200F range.

Steels will begin grain growth at elevated temperature for extended periods. The higher the temps, the more rapidly the growth of the grain. Or longer times at lower elevated temps will cause this too. With enough time and temp (way beyond the temps and times needed to solder) the steel will grow (not shrink). (Shrinkage in welding is a completely different phenomenae).

I have re-layed ribs on a Parker. Mine was lead and tin soldered originally and I used this for the re-lay. It's almost universally accepted that 60/40 tin/lead is the original and repair alloy. Tix is an indium based alloy that melts around 150F. I don't know about your use, but my barrels can approach this temperature and undoubtedly exceed it, just setting in the direct sunlight on a 100F day in California. Certainly, the barrels will exceed 150F if fired more than a few times in succession on a hot day. We've all had blisters from touching a hot barrel after some repeated shooting.

go to the link below and there's an article...sort of a "how-to".

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18691676

[Chuck Heald]

BTW,
the lug and lower rib were also attached originally with tin/lead solder. The lower lug on these old guns sometimes comes loose and requires resoldering.

At room temperature, 60/40 lead tin solder is approximately 50% stronger in tensile strength to TIX solder.

[John Hancock]

Chuck, My suggestions are only based what has worked for me for many years. Browning Superposed shotguns were known to have the ribs get loose and through the years I have used Tix without a failure. Shooting doves in Mexico on a hot day certainly gets the bbls hot. Brownells, only place I have ever bought Tix, claim in their catalog that Tix melts at 275. I am certain, having taken measurements, that it doesn't take a lot of heat on the typical bbl. to cause it to shrink. My experience in metalluragy is limited to pratical machine work. My business, that I retired from and sold after owning it for 25 years, was at first the Rebuilding and marketing of vehicle A/C Compressors and the last 5 or 6 years developing and manufacturing a new aftermarket compressor. At the onset of the new compressor design I hired an engineer from GM and certainly do understand that sometimes one can just be lucky with their results. Still I can attest to the Tix working for me. Regards, John Hancock

[Chuck Heald]

JH,
I stand corrected on TIX melting temps. Apparently TIX can be had in different melting temps. I will defer to your experience with TIX.

I am unfamiliar with any shrinking in steels or gun barrels from heat generated during soldering or even much higher temperatures. My experience is that grain growth from extended high heat application can cause some dimensional growth and martensitic steels can shrink a very small amount when hardening. I have a graphic example of dimensional growth from grain growth in something I'll try to remember to post a picture of. The example item gets heated regularly to somewhere in the 1800-1900F range from high output propane burner running close to 2000F. The grain growth caused very obvious dimensional growth changes. But this takes extended time at elevated temps or repeated elevated temps.

I am not aware of any steels that exhibit permanent appreciable dimensional change (greater or lesser) effect of temperatures used in soldering with tin/lead eutectic solder. But I'm always learning.

[John Hancock]

Chuck, As I think about it the bbls. may not shrink so much as go out of round. Any time I am messing with bbls., usually to do something with the choke, I use pin gauges to determine the bore size. (interesting how few bbls. are the same bore dia. the entire length) My pratice is to find a pin gauge that will pass the bbl. where I am interested in it and then note that size, add .001", and call that the bore size. I used Brownells Hi-Force 44 on the first few Superposed I did and had to drop .003" to .005" with the pin gauge to get one to go through. Started useing the TIX they sell with good results so far and the pin used before soldering would still go through after the job. Certainly any of the 60/40 type solders are a good deal stronger than TIX and if one is concerned with the possibility of the rib shooting loose use 60/40. ERIC, if you use a conventional 60/40 type solder, I think the Hi-Force 44 with the Comet Flux is mabee of the best "flowing" solder I have ever used. CHUCK, How hot is an average "dove" day in Ca.? Here in Texas seems like they don't really fly till it gets to about 104. When I was younger didn't notice, now it seems hot. Of course quit Mexico some years ago, add 10% to the temp here for a good dove field in Mex. Regards, John

[Eric Estes]

Thanks John and Chuck. A lot of experience and good information here.

John, the Hi-Force 44 low temp is a no lead tin and silver solder with a pretty high flow temp (475). Much higher than 60/40. It sure would take a lot of heat to get that flowing on a barrel assembly. It sure would be strong, but would temps that high be a risk for rib work?

So in the Parker factory was the soft solder only for the ribs and fore lug? Did they braze or silver solder to attach the rear lug and the barrels to the breach? It sounds like their soft solder work was 60/40.

Thanks again.

[Chuck Heald]

JH,
The dove openner in Blythe can be 120F, Yuma AZ can be just as hot. Guns get so hot, you can't handle the barrels, just setting in the sun.

[John Hancock]

Chuck, That's hot. At my age I don't go outside anywhere near that temp. You comment on on the bbls. I think of my health. Seriously, I have had two doctors tell me what the situation was and end the talk with "I can't do anything to help you". Some things, like your heart, when damaged can't be fixed. Take care of yourself.
Eric, I know the 44 does take more heat than regular 60/40, I think about 100 degrees, per my prev note, I use the TIX on the rib, have done several lugs with the 44, and a tight spot shows up in the bbl. ( hone and lap out ). My point was for strength the 44 would certainly be superior to the TIX and I used it in the past, but did lap the bbls. afterward. Mostly the 44 is useful to me putting sights on rifles. Have a friend who still hunts Africa and once in a while we build up another big caliber with open sights. Screw and solder them on. Slugging a rifle bore I have not found the bore to get tight at the heated area, of course the wall thickness of the bbl. is a lot more than shotgun bbls.
Regards, JH

[Chuck Heald]

JH,
Yes, that is hot. I don't go for the openner. Too hot for me too. :whistle: I like to take my lab out, but not in heat over about 85-90F on dove, less on upland birds. So, I go later in the season and shoot less birds.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/roaniecowpony/dovehunters.jpg


I used HiForce 44 for a sleeved LC to hold the barrels together and for the forend lug. It was a 20g sleeved with 28g tubes. I was shooting it without the upper and lower ribs, just the spacers between the barrels, but they were long.

[John Hancock]

Chuck, Beautiful dog, I like dogs. I never fired a shot in Calif., close as I ever got was the pigeon shoots in Laughlin and Reno in the 80's, and they were in the Fall so it was good weather. Stay well, JH

[Chuck Heald]

John,
I hope you guys get out of the draught down that way soon. Meanwhile, here's another pic or two of the hounds.

This one is the opposite weather from that first one, a cold Dec 2011 day in Kansas, about 15F as I recall.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/roaniecowpony/DSC_3196cropped.jpg

The girls gettin their sun.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/roaniecowpony/DSC_3039darker.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c125/roaniecowpony/DSC_3046.jpg

[charlie cleveland]

beautiful dogs...kansas is a lovely place...wish i had another life to live over...buy me some new dogs and move west... charlie

[John Hancock]

Chuck, I like those dogs too. I have always had dogs, we used to really have quail here in Texas. The last 3 years something has happened to them. Two of my closest friends have "bird" ranches, one 4000 acres and the other 8500, and I have a little farm. As you might guess we got spoiled through the years. We basically haven't shot any birds for 3 years except a few to bring the pups along. We have the quail research ranch here too and they brought a guy in to try and figure out what's happening and of course the State is supposed to be working on it. One of the board members told me that in the initial conversations the guy they brought in was talking about a 5 year study, all of the board members told him they likely didn't have 5 years left, get some results now. I am down to two Pointers, a 3 year old and a 4 year old and they could be good if we can get to where we can kill some birds, I call them half broke. In August had a friend had some problems and needed to get rid of a Lab pup that was 8 months old. I really didn't want him but my buddy was talking about putting him down if he couldn't find someone who would do right by him. I had seen the dog some at the Gun Club and couldn't not take him. Anyway he is a sweet boy and in Sept. at 8 months I put him in the dove field. Had a guy I let hunt deer on the farm mow me about an acre in the field so he could see the birds fall to get the idea, result was for the dove season I killed a lot of birds and he picked them up like he had been doing it all his life, rough pasture, sunflowers, water, anywhere. Got to where when he heard the safety click off he was up and ready. Good fun, wish I had more strength to shoot more for him. No ducks for him yet there isn't any water here this year. Going to try and get around to taking some pic and will post. Best, JH

[Chuck Heald]

John,
The dogs are more and more becoming why I go out. Some friends want to go to a bird preserve next weekend, now that the wild season is over. Im just going to run the dogs and not shoot.

[Justin Julian]

What sort of tool or process is used to clean the excess solder from the exterior edge of the seams?

[John Hancock]

Ruff Hunter, I have always used a very sharp chisel first to cut out any big lumps of the solder. I use it with the beveled side toward the metal, less chance of gouging into the bbl or rib that way. Then use the end of a file that I grind a bevel on so that it will get as mugh into the joint as possible. Make the end of the file look like a chisel. You are actually "draw" filing with the end of the file, cutting "cross-ways" with the teeth rather than useing the file in the normal length-wise motion. Keep cleaning the file with a file card and rub chalk on the file teeth to help keep it from "piping". If still is a line of solder you can usually scrape away the last bit with utility knif blades by hand. The ones I use are Stanley Industrial quality, they hold the edge better than any I have used. Assume you are going to reblue, so then you can "sand-blast" the joing, I use Aluminum Oxide 80 grit media at about 60 psi in my cabinet, then complete with the wet/dry sandpaper. Hope this gives you some ideas. Mabee Chuck will comment, I bet he has some good methods too.
Regards, John Hancock

[Allan Carroll]

Can you share what type flux you used? I understand an acid flux is best used with steel, but it bad when not neutralized between the barrels.