Grade 7 Pigeon Gun

[Stephen Lyons]

I have a grade 7 hammerless pigeon gun made from witworth fluid steel. it's an awesome gun in shop table condition but very worn otherwise. It's missing the buttplate and it's from my great grandfather. Made in 1897 I believe serial number 87449. Curious about restoration and value and all. I was told this site was better to talk to for this and appreciate the help. Also please tell me what pictures would be best such as close up of gold shield etc.

[Bill Murphy]

#87,449 is a Grade 7 gun. Any and all pictures would contribute to a reply evaluating its worth on today's market.

[Stephen Lyons]

Ill get pictures up next post, and i dont really want to sell it. But even though i plan on keeping it i still dont want to hurt the value.

[Chuck Bishop]

Pictures (close as possible and in focus) should include the butt stock, the end of the buttstock, all sides of the receiver, the flats of the receiver, the forend, the bottom of the barrel flats including the lug, the rib inscription, and the end of the rib where it meets the end of the barrels (looking down from the top.) Also take an accurate measurement of the barrel length.

Your one lucky guy to have such a gun and a family heirloom to boot!

[Ed Blake]

Yes, pictures please. If you have a grade 7 Parker, you need to join the PGCA.

[Stephen Lyons]

Im almost done with the pictures but i think a fairly rough measurement of the barrel length is 28.5 inches.

[Stephen Lyons]

Here are some of the pictures:

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0645.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0656.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0657.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0658.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0664.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0697.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0698.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0699.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0701.jpg

[Stephen Lyons]

Here are the rest, let me know if i did something wrong, im relatively new to guns so i may have taken the wrong pictures

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0696.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0695.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0694.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0689.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0687.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0688.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0680.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0681.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0682.jpg

Its in ruff shape..

[Frank Cronin]

Do you have pics of the muzzle end?

PS. Get a research letter. You say it's in rough shape but I think it looks awesome.

[Stephen Lyons]

What is a research letter? And you mean like this?

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0707.jpg

http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/steved13579/IMG_0706.jpg

[Robert Rambler]

:crying::crying::crying:

[Dean Romig]

My goodness... I've never seen such a high grade Parker so neglected.

I'm glad you care about that gun... someone before you didn't.

It should be restored. It will be quite expensive but it should be restored.

Did I say it will be expensive? In any case, it should be restored.

If you have it restored properly it will be worth about 4X - 5X the price of restoration.

Except for the cut barrels it is a perfect candidate for restoration.

Where do you live Stephen? We can recommend experts in the field of restoring such a high grade Parker as yours.

[Stephen Lyons]

Well it was my great grandfathers, the weird thing is why he acquired such a nice gun, he loved hinting but still he was relatively poor and born a few years before the gun was made... O i wish someone would have asked him the story. How much is it really worth, 5,000?

P.S. I live in Florida, around the city of Port Orange or Daytona Beach if that is better know to you. Also what is the length supposed to be?

[Dean Romig]

I would guess, in that condition, probably around $5K. It needs a lot of work to bring it back to its former glory... and it was a glorious Parker!! Very desirable but...

[Brian Dudley]

Another one who lucked out... Someone who doesn't know much about guns, let alone Parkers gets passed down an AAH Pigion Gun. I think that your $5k estimate is low. Maybe not for the condition it is in, but surely after any quality restoration. Just to give you an idea, The book value for this in Good to Very good condition (which it would be if a top notch restoration is done) is $18k-$25k. Fair Condition is $10k. And Poor is $1,000. I would call this one between poor and Fair.

It would be very interesting for you to learn where your great grandfater got the gun from considering that this would have been a VERY expensive gun when it was new.

[Ed Blake]

It's worth a bit more than 5k and it may cost close to that amount to have it properly restored. You've got a real gem.

[Dean Romig]

Probably the most important thing after determining that the barrel wall thickness and condition of the bores doesn't sound the death knell on it is to have the metal work, e.g. the pitted ribs, pitted and worn frame etc., restored and reengraved by an expert in this field (we can name a few) and then finished properly before the wood issues are addressed.

[Dean Romig]

It's worth a bit more than 5k and it may cost close to that amount to have it properly restored. You've got a real gem.

Ed, it will cost a bit more than $5K to restore that gun properly, IMHO.

[Stephen Lyons]

Like I said im positive he didnt get it new, and he didnt have money, just knew he went hunting at least once a week more likely more lol Anyhow I cant wait to get it restored but im young and dont have that kind of money, one day i would love to, but i dont want someone to mess it up so when the time comes id rather pay up.

[Chuck Bishop]

Anyone have any idea how the engraving on the receiver would get so worn? Would normal hunting cause so much wear? I can understand the rib matting and lettering being buffed down when reblueing but the wear on the receiver is extreme.

Stephen a research letter will give you information from factory records which are available for your gun. Go to the PGCA Home page and click on the Research Letter link and follow the directions. More than likely, it will tell you who bought the gun new and any subsequent returns for repair.

[alan kirchner]

Brian
I think a lot of high end parker's get handed down. I had two handed down to me both broken a Trojen 12 gauge and a AHE 28 both with broken stocks. I still haven't been able to get the 28 fixed. That's a story for another thread.

[Stephen Lyons]

I will get on that research letter. But all of you parker admirers would you restore the gun? And than what? I would love to use it a little, but wouldnt want to hurt it.

[Dean Romig]

I have a Grade 7 Skeleton Steel Buttplate in very nice condition that I will part with for your gun for tha price I paid for it... with the stipulation that your gun will have been restored to the point that it awaits the fitting of a SSBP.

[Stephen Lyons]

That is beautiful, where did that come from?

[Dean Romig]

It came from a Grade 7 about two or three years younger than yours. It was in somebody's "Old Gun Parts" drawer until I was lucky enough to buy it in May this year.

[Stephen Lyons]

Does an insert fit into the space that will still be there? I cant wait to restore it but it may be some years from now, im too young to have that sort of capital. Would you use it if you had restored it or before restoring it? And is there a temporary buttpad so i could shoot it?

P.S. I think the barrel is 29 inch, is it supposed to be 30?

[Dean Romig]

The wood in the 'space' would have been checkered as in this next picture. Your skeleton steel buttplate was removed and a rubber recoil pad was installed. The rubber is gone but the plastic or hard rubber base plate of the pad is still there. There is a remote chance that the checkering is still under that base plate but I doubt it.

As long as the condition of the barrels are safe to shoot and they are not 'off face' of the frame I would think it is safe to shoot.


.

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Stephen,

Welcome to the Parker Gun Collectors Association and the Parker Forum. You have a fantastic family heirloom. You should consider joining the PGCA along with ordering a research letter on your gun. The membership will be well worth the $40 and the cost of research letters is lower for members.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/payments.php

Good luck and I do hope you will consider joining.

[Larry Frey]

Also what is the length supposed to be?

Steven,
I'm not sure you received an answer to your question. The serialization book lists this gun with 30" barrels and a straight grip stock. The barrels have been cut but the pistol grip stock looks original and is most likely an error in the book. A PGCA letter might show a factory replacement stock and perhaps the barrel trimming.

[Stephen Lyons]

I plan on joining today, and also sending the letter for the research letter. The full restoration will probably have to wait untill im out of collage, my dad doesnt take as much of interest in the gun. But did anyone know someone capable of doing the work around in florida?

[Don Kaas]

There are only a very small number of gunsmiths in the US one would entrust an AAH Parker to for a restoration, a very small number. Don't worry about where they are. BTW, last year a very worn AAH was sold by a major dealer to a another dealer. The price listed on the gun was $10K. It was for sale for but a few days. I believe it brought that. While it did not have cut barrels, it did have a lot wrong with it. I suspect your gun would bring a similar amount, as is. If you do not have the resources to properly "restore" the gun just keep it clean and lightly oiled and stored in a dry spot (especially in a FL summer). Were it my gun, it would have a set of 30 inch "replacement" barrels on it within the week. Best of luck with it.

[Dean Romig]

Probably not in Florida. I can think of three such experts here in the Northeast and I hope they're still doing it when you are out of college and ready to take on the task financially.

[Josh Loewensteiner]

Stephen,

Congrats on the wise decision to become a PGCA member. I hope you will find that shooting and owning a Parker shotgun is one of the great joys in your life. I'm 32 and have been a PGCA member since I was in college as well. Now I'm on the board of directors!

Best of luck with your gun. I am sure you have gotten several offers to buy it by now. It is really a treat to see such a high grade gun with workmanship like the one you have. It is a treasure.

[Stephen Lyons]

I have not had any offers, not many know about it anyways, just this forum and my local gun shop. And yes i hope the experts are still around too but i guess in some time i may be back on this forum asking who the experts are, in the meantime ill just enjoy it how it is. And "replacement barrels?" Why would i want to replace an original part? Anyhow should i trust my local shop when they said i can shoot it? And Chilled Shot where are they, as in the state? And also how much does it cost to replace the missing buttstock, the steel part? Thank you all for being so helpful!

[Brian Dudley]

Let me guess, your local gun shop offered you $500 or something for it. lol. I know of a few that might do such a thing.

As long as the bores are not in VERY bad shape by way of HEAVY pitting, and the ribs are not separated, shoot away. Try to stay away from shells over 3 dram equ. or buy some low pressure RST loads and you will be ready to go. Would not hurt to have a competant gunsmith look at the barrels if you do not know what to look for.

To check for loose top or bottom ribs, apart from looking at them... Hang the barrels off your finger and knock at them in a few places with your nuckle. You should get a nice "ring" tone out of them. That tells you that everything is tight and "One" piece. If it sounds like more of a dull clang, then you have a rib loose.

The witworth steel was Parkers highest quality steel offered and was imported from Europe. So they are by all means up to snuff to todays standards on even cheap guns. That is if they are in good condition.

[Brian Dudley]

Am I correct in saying that this AAH was made before the first A-1 Special was made?? I do not have my reference material handy.

So, basically at the time of manufacture, this gun may have been the Finest that Parker had to offer.

[Stephen Lyons]

I think that is true, or at least someone said so, and the shop didnt even ask to buy it or offer anything. Probably because i said it was sentimental and they seem like good people. A gunsmith had looked at it, he is older and i asked him just to put some light oil on it and clean it a little. He didnt do much he said because he said it was a valuable gun and he didnt want to ruin its value or add a butt stock or anything. He knew it was special before i did.

[Ray Masciarella]

What a great gun. It was a very expensive gun new and I'm glad some got their monies worth! IMHO, the only way to restore it is to bring it back to original factory condition. Anything else would probably be a waste of money, ie not increase it's value. That would be very expensive. Far more then the $5000 estimate. Based on what engraving are charging today, picking up the engraving on this gun would probably exceed $5000! Just keep it safe and do it right when you have the cash. Good luck.

Best, Ray

[Stephen Lyons]

Yes I will do so, ill keep on this forum and maybe about four years from now ill put some before and after pictures, that would be nice. For now i think ill shoot it a little, too tempting not too.

[Dean Romig]

Stephen, one of them lives in Connecticut and the other in southeastern Massachusetts. They're getting along in years and may not be in the business in four years but who knows... maybe they will be. The tricky part that requires an expert is welding up the pitted and excessively worn areas and then reengraving them to look exactly as when it left the factory.

[Stephen Lyons]

I really wish i could just do it now, but i just dont have that money going into collage. Maybe if i sold some things, but even than i might bring 2,000 with all i could think of. Cant sell my truck haha. Trust me i would pull the trigger right away on restoring it, maybe ill find a way.

[Mark Ouellette]

Stephen,

Having to wait a few years before restoring your family treasure may well be good fortune. We all have our favorite gunsmiths who we would recommend to restore your historical piece of art. Take your time learning about Parker guns. Get to know the members of the PGCA and they will share information with you. Attend a big SxS shoot or two per year. I go to Hausman's Hidden Hollow in northeast Pennsylvania where there is a large band of Parker guys and gals that readily accept new guys like me. The Southern SxS in North Carolina is a bigger event held in April and would closer to you than Hidden Hollow. Anyway, having face to face conversations with Parker collectors where they can examine your gun will be a great investment in time and money. Plus, if you do not have a great time at these shoots you are not human!

Ask the more experienced collectors of who could restore your Pigeon Gun accurately. For certain your gun needs to be restored accurately to how it looked when it was sold. Also inquire about the cost of such restoration and the time required. A year for this gun would not be unreasonable. Most good gunsmiths are backed up 6 months to years for their restorations. I do however think that most would fit an AAH Pigeon Gun into their schedule because your gun is so rare. As for cost, once again ask the PCGA members. An inaccurate or mediocre restoration would be a waste of money because anyone that could afford a restored Pigeon Gun would want it to be accurately restored so that their peers would marvel at how the gun would look like it had just left the factory at Meridian. Remember the for restoration to consider the factors of Skill, Accuracy, Time, Cost, and to a lesser degree, Market Reputation.

So, take your time. Do not let any gunsmith touch your gun, even for a simple repair, unless the "Parker Guys" approve of their work. Do no damage. By the time you have saved enough to pay for a restoration you should have gained enough knowledge and have a few Parker mentors to guide you toward making the correct decision.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Brian Dudley]

Any of us on here would attest to the fact that there is nothing wrong with leaving something be as is for a while. Even thought it may itch at us. The hard part is over for you, and that is just having possesion of it.

And believe me, to expand on Mark's comment above, a correct restoration will show it's benefits if the gun were ever sold. You would be surprised how easy it will be to get top dollar for it.

[Mark Ouellette]

Brian,

Thanks! As for fine collectables like Parkers, many of us may someday have to thin our heards. At ninety years old I''ll probably be down to a but a few of my favorites. If at that time I needed $XXXXX to pay for my or a family member's medical bills, my most prised Parkers might have to be sold. That is when a perfect restoration will afford me not only the restoration cost but also the appropriate time value of money.

Mark

[Ray Masciarella]

The collective advice you get here is invaluable. It's why I joined PGCA and you should too. There is no other place you could go to get better advice. All of these fellas are extremely helpful. And it's free, except for the $40 it cost to join.
I'm fairly new having only been a member for a couple of years so I dont have the experience others have so the advice I can give you is limited. The best advice you have rec'd here is go slow and only do a correct factory new restoration. The bad news is it's going to cost a lot more then you think but you'll get your money out of it if done correctly.
I have the same concerns as Dean, ie whether anyone will still be around who is qualified when you get around to doing it. The biggest challenge for you seems to be the engraving and barrels. They will probably be the biggest expense too. To insure they are done by someone qualified, maybe you should consider doing it in sections. For example, scrape up the funds to do the barrels. That will take some time to do and give you a chance to save up for the next part of the project. It may take years but so what? You'll have a lifetime to enjoy it along with the satisfaction.
There will always be someone who can, for example, refinish a the stock. But you'll need folks with years of experience to get the engraving and barrels right. That's why you might want to think about getting started.

Good luck! Ray

[Ray Masciarella]

Good luck! Ray

[Gill Frye]

Several months ago I looked at a BH that all the engraving was worn off, looked alot like yours. The only thing I could figure was somebody let the thing rust up and then tried to get it off by buffing or steel wool, such a shame to see.

[Stephen Lyons]

I don't mind taking my time, and appreciate the advice. I'm just worried about them not doing their restorations anymore. Maybe I could write them a letter or e-mail? And Ray i did join the PGCA and am just sending out a research letter too today.

[Richard Flanders]

Holy cow! I'd sure like to have that gun tell it's story on just where it's been! You're a lucky fellow Stephan. I hope you are able to enjoy decades of shooting that beauty. In the end you will never regret spending the money to get it properly restored. A better investment you'll never make....

[Stephen Lyons]

Ill be sure too update on the history of the gun. Ill have to ask some other family members who know about about it. And hopefully that and the research letter, however long that may take, and you'll have the history. It seems like you all appreciate both the history and the guns.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Several months ago I looked at a BH that all the engraving was worn off, ...

When I visited Brad's shop, he showed me a work in progress where very ornate engraving had been removed. Through a process, he revealed the pattern. An engraver was then able to meticulously chase every line. I saw the results "in the white". It was pretty spectacular. So....... almost anything can be fixed :)

[Bill Murphy]

Several years ago, a friend found an outrageously engraved SO Beretta that had been heavily used and neglected by a South American shooter. The engraving was filled with rust and appeared to be heavily pitted in places. He sent it to Rich Cole and it came back looking wonderful. Rich disassembled the gun and put it through a procedure that only he can tell us about. It was a chemical process and did not involve reengraving. It doesn't hurt to ask.

[Stephen Lyons]

i dont want to try that, sounds like it could go wrong. On a lesser gun i would look into so thank you very much, if i buy one ever ill make sure to get informed.

[Mike Franzen]

Thought I would bring this thread back up see if anyone knows whatever happened to this gun.

[allen newell]

If this was my gun, I would have Brad Bachelder of Grand Rapids work all wood and have Dan Cullity of Sandwhich, Mass work all metal surfaces. Cullity is a world renown Master Engraver and restorer/builder of fine weapons.
However, I'd have Brad Bachelder do any case coloring as Cullity's colors are not consistent with Parker factory colors (Ryan Cullity, Dan's son acknowledged this to me yesterday) Brad's colors IMHO come as close to original Parkers.

[Dean Romig]

Dan Cullity definitely for the engraving and barrel work but Chris Dawe would by my first choice for the wood work.





.

[Buddy Marson]

Steven, Take this from an old guy who has been down this road. Don't get hung up on having someone local (Florida?) to do the work required. Seek out the best craftsman for engraving, barrel work, metal work, and wood work. Send the gun to them. They deserve and earn what they charge for their high quality of work! You will always appreciate best quality of work long, long after you forgot what you paid to have it done.
All the best,
Buddy

[Harold Lee Pickens]

I had Dan Cullity do a partial restoration probably 20 years ago, or as he called it a hunters special on an old beat up Fox A 16 many years ago. Reblued the barrels, recut checkering, refinished wood, and added nice recoil pad. We left the nicely patinaed receiver alone. I really enjoy shooting this gun now.

[Bill Murphy]

I sure would like to see a scan of the letter he sent for. According to my records, this gun had a pistol grip stock when it was first sent out in early 1898. Supposedly, it was also sent out with no safety. Did our original poster ever get his PGCA letter? And what makes us think that this gun came from the factory with a skeleton buttplate? Sawing enough wood off the stock to install a skeleton plate will make it too short to appear or shoot like original. This gun was probably originally sent out with a Silver pad.

[Brian Dudley]

Bill, what records do you have that would suggest no safety? It is not listed in the serialization book with any options. Not that safety delete is an option in the book anyway.

I agree on the pad. By the look of the screws used, it looks like factory work.

[Bill Murphy]

The original order specified "no safety". On November 14, 1907, Shoverling, Daly, and Gales returned the gun for installation of a safety, and to tighten the gun for a charge of $3.50. The gun was restocked more than once and a "soft rubber butt" was installed at one of those restocks.

[Brian Dudley]

Well, our OPs last activity (period) was 2012, so i dont know if we will get any answer as to if anything was done with the gun.

[Dave Tatman]

It was such a great story. I had not yet caught the Parker "bug"when he first posted, so today was the first I had seen this thread, thanks to Mike for bringing it back up. To have such an incredible gun passed down as a family heirloom.... Seriously?? This is the stuff of a fairy tale. Sure makes you hope that that young fellow comes into a stage in life that will allow him to do a proper restoration of a once in a lifetime (if that frequent!) gun......

Dave

[Larry Frey]

It's been over six years since this thread started and Stephen may or may not still own this gun. If he does and he checks back hopefully he will see what his family Parker could look like and find a way to get it restored. It won't be cheap and may not be financially sound but it would be a shame not to save that fine old Parker.

[tom tutwiler]

Sometimes you will have folks post stuff and then they go off the radar. Same thing happens on the Fox site. Ask some questions and then they fade away. Would be interesting to see what happened to the gun.

[Richard Flanders]

My guess is that someone made him an offer he just couldn't refuse.

[Chris Travinski]

Larry, who did the restoration work on your gun?

[Larry Frey]

Chris,
Abe Chaber did the work on this gun. I use others from time to time but with Abe being in state I can drop guns off and eliminate the costs and risks of shipping.

[Chris Travinski]

Did he have Geoff Gournet address the engraving?

[Larry Frey]

Chris,
The engraving was not touched. I showed this gun because the engraving style was so similar to the gun in the original post.

[Mike Franzen]

I was as intrigued by how his great grandfather could have come into possession of the gun as I was by the gun itself. If what the OP stated was true and great grandfather was a poor man it's got to be a great story. It looked to me like the barrels had been clipped a little. Who would do that to a gun like that? I have a feeling this gun will resurface again.

[Brian Dudley]

Larry, who did the restoration work on your gun?


The two photos are not of the same gun. It is easy to think theybare at first glance.

[Bill Murphy]

Mike Franzen, "how grandpa came to own the gun" is an interesting subject. When I was in college, I shot skeet at a local Izaak Walton League, along with a couple of guys who were also in the University. One was a gun bug, the other not so much. A couple of years went by and we lost contact. One night, "not so much" called and told me to come to his home near Annapolis to look at a gun for him. It was a rainy Sunday morning when I arrived at his home on the Severn. On the dining room table, he had laid out a worn and abused prewar Pigeon Grade Superposed and a gorgeous AHE Grade Parker trap gun. He asked if I were interested in the Browning and I told him I was not. He then said that I would be buying the Parker, because he had some expenses he had to take care of. I told him I couldn't afford the Parker and he replied that I could afford it. He said that I would write him a check for $2200.00. So that is one way "Grandpa" can end up with a hot Parker. I protested that the gun was worth several times what he was asking. He rose above my protests and forced me to take the gun.

[Larry Frey]

I protested that the gun was worth several times what he was asking. He rose above my protests and forced me to take the gun.

And then the alarm clock sounded and you woke up. And that my friends is "the rest of the story".:)

[Bill Murphy]

No way, Larry. This is not a normal fable from the forum. I am not that talented a writer. I displayed the AHE Trap at the West VA hoedown run by John Allgood and others. It was enjoyed by those who picked it up. Unfortunately, it was not the hit of the show because a B Grade hammer gun and a flock of Becker Foxes were also displayed.

[charlie cleveland]

good storey bill...i would be broke in a situation like that...charlie

[Michael Moffa]

Anybody want to check the membership roster from a few years ago to see if Stephen Lyons is still a member?

[Bill Murphy]

Not in the Autumn 2016 roster.

[Michael Moffa]

Not in the '15, '14, '13 or '12 rosters either. I guess he didn't join or elected not to be listed.