Unmarked Hammer 12 Ga. Shotgun

[Rocky Nivison]

I have my great - great granddads rabbit ear 12 gauge shotgun without a manufacture stamp only a serial number of 2361 and an A with fish looking emblem underneath. I need to find a missing hammer for it. You know who made this one? Please contact me at rockynivison@hotmail.com or call 512-484-6464. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Bruce Day]

This is not a Parker shotgun.

You may have better luck at some other gun interest site that you may find through Google.

[Rocky Nivison]

This is not a Parker shotgun.

You may have better luck at some other gun interest site that you may find through Google.

Thanks,
It’s not like anything I can find but it’s in perfect shooting condition and I would like to restore its hammer if I can find one.
Anyone interested in hammer guns may know what it is.. I’ve seen everything Google has to offer and nothing comes close. I’ve had 5 replies from Cabalas gun libraries and they don’t know what it is and I have sent photos to Numrich Gun Parts Corp. yesterday.

[Bruce Day]

To be frank about it, the gun looks to be a low cost hardware store gun of which thousands were imported from Belgium and sold to major hardware distributors. They sold for maybe $15 to $20 when quality guns sold for $50 and up. They shot loose after a while and the barrels were of questionable quality and did not withstand higher pressure loads. They were seldom marked with a manufacturer's or distributor's name, as were better quality guns. Your desire to fix up your forebear's gun is admirable but unwise in my unsolicited opinion.

[Rocky Nivison]

To be frank about it, the gun looks to be a low cost hardware store gun of which thousands were imported from Belgium and sold to major hardware distributors. They sold for maybe $15 to $20 when quality guns sold for $50 and up. They shot loose after a while and the barrels were of questionable quality and did not withstand higher pressure loads. They were seldom marked with a manufacturer's or distributor's name, as were better quality guns. Your desire to fix up your forebear's gun is admirable but unwise in my unsolicited opinion.

This one is as tight as the day it was new and very good barrels. I have 2 grand nieces in their early 20s and would like to pass it on to the first son if they ever get married. It would be his great-great-great-great-great granddads __________ rabbit ear 12 gauge shotgun. I would like to fill in the blank if possible. I can have a gun smith make a hammer if I can’t find one as the manufacture and date of manufacture is actually more important. Grand-Grand-Grand-Grand-Grand is priceless.

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Rocky,

Your granddad's external hammer shotgun may be a new but it is still has no manufacturer's marks to our knowledge. Bruce is probably correct at a 99 and 44/100% chance!

Without markings no one could tell you who made it. Sorry.

If you want to have it repaired and give to the please do so.

If you like, go to the Double Gun Shop forum and ask the members.
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Let us know if anyone solves this mystery.

[Rocky Nivison]

Hi Rocky,

Your granddad's external hammer shotgun may be a new but it is still has no manufacturer's marks to our knowledge. Bruce is probably correct at a 99 and 44/100% chance!

Without markings no one could tell you who made it. Sorry.

If you want to have it repaired and give to the please do so.

If you like, go to the Double Gun Shop forum and ask the members.
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

Let us know if anyone solves this mystery.


Thanks Mark,
And I meant to thank Bruce for being frank, sorry Bruce and thanks for being frank it helped me to know where it probably came from and where to look next. If nothing else I can say it is probably a Belgium shotgun. This shotgun was well used during the depression and when the trigger was pulled it was to put meat on the table. It was loaned to many people and the hammer was lost by a friend of my granddads while hunting rabbits. It’s incredible that it is in like new shooting condition. I think it may be a good quality cheap Belgium shotgun. I will most defiantly let everyone know whether it is solved or not.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Rocky: When you say "unmarked" does that include under the barrels at the breech end? Any stampings in that area may be helpful to your cause. There are some master gunsmiths who could return this close to its original state. Of course that would cost but then, as you say, great-great-great-great-great might be worth a few grand for sentimental reasons.
Cheers,
Jack

[Rocky Nivison]

Rocky: When you say "unmarked" does that include under the barrels at the breech end? Any stampings in that area may be helpful to your cause. There are some master gunsmiths who could return this close to its original state. Of course that would cost but then, as you say, great-great-great-great-great might be worth a few grand for sentimental reasons.
Cheers,
Jack

Thanks Jack
No markings at all anywhere accept an A with a fish underneath the A and the number 2361 stamped on every piece of the gun including the wood. There is another 2361 under the barrel at the breech end. I may have it restored but will probably leave it like it is, looking very old and used..

[charlie cleveland]

rocky i would have me a hammer made for the gun and if a used hammer of same type turns up i would then put it on....enjoy your great grandfathers gun..a treasure it indeed is.... charlie

[Rocky Nivison]

rocky i would have me a hammer made for the gun and if a used hammer of same type turns up i would then put it on....enjoy your great grandfathers gun..a treasure it indeed is.... charlie

Thanks Charlie,
The man that lost the hammer made one that works now and probably more valuable, sentimentally, than a new hammer but there has to be 2360 more out there and one may have more markings. The gun is probably only worth about $200.00 and may stay in the family longer if it isn’t worth selling. The fun one can have researching such a thing, again, priceless. I wonder how many horses stage coach operators shot by accident because it has to be the most dangerous firearm ever made. I will have it disabled before passing it on.

[Brian Dudley]

It kind of has the look of an early J. Stevens Arms and Tool gun.

But those would usually be marked. Other than that, it looks like no other hammer gun that I have seen.

[Rocky Nivison]

It kind of has the look of an early J. Stevens Arms and Tool gun.

But those would usually be marked. Other than that, it looks like no other hammer gun that I have seen.

Thanks, Brian
It’s the way the stock is connected to the breach that is so different from any other. My uncle told me it was an 1894 Remington made for sears or someone that never got stamped, when he gave it to me about 5 years ago. I disclaimed that in about 30 minutes on the internet 3 days ago when I started researching it. 1889 was the last year of the Remington hammer gun although the 1889 hammer on the Remington is identical in pattern but like the gun not as solid. The hammer on both guns must have been patterned after one another. Which one came first are another mystery and another reason to find out the date of manufacture on this one. Remington may have bought out this company and implemented some of its better features, but this hammer gun probably is post 1900 and improved Remington’s features.
I'll look at the J. Stevens Arms and tool gun.

[Rocky Nivison]

Well let’s see if I can get this right and you will have to excuse me if I get anything wrong while trying to pull a rabbit ear shotgun out of a hat. 2361 could be 2-3-61 since my great granddads brother in law, (Fern Smith), lived to be 106 years old and was the last solder left alive for the C.S.A. and the second civil war solder living before he died. I met him on several accessions walking a mile through the woods to fish in his son’s pond, his sword was on the mantel over the fireplace, and they even brought his uniform out on one occasion. He was a cornel for the C.S.A... He couldn’t have been more than 12 or so when he fought for the south. 2 -3-61 is only 12 years before the Remington M1873 or "hammer lifter model". I can remember Fern’s sister my great grandmother siting on the porch and smoking cotton bowl chewing tobacco in a corn cob pipe and my mom said she grew marijuana out by the barn until they outlawed it in the 20 or 30’s. She lived to be 92. This shotgun belonged to my great-great granddad. Maybe he made it.

[Brian Dudley]

What made me think of Steven was the shape of the bottom the receiver. It is very similar to teh hammerless 311's and 315's. Also the Forend iron looks like a Stevens.

However there are a lot about it that is not typical of the Stevens hammer guns that I have seen.

[Rocky Nivison]

What made me think of Steven was the shape of the bottom the receiver. It is very similar to teh hammerless 311's and 315's. Also the Forend iron looks like a Stevens.

However there are a lot about it that is not typical of the Stevens hammer guns that I have seen.

Thanks again Brian,
I looked at one Stevens’s gun and the forearm looks similar too but I didn’t get a good enough picture to see much but no it’s not that model. I’ll look at the ones you referred to. I’ve been looking into date codes and stamps and Belgium used an A from 1911 to 1975 but they all had stars on top of the A. I am going to be a little slow responding because my brother will arrive shortly from Austin for 10 days of deer hunting. I can see this gun may be another lifelong hobby and I may have to turn it over to a local Vernon Parish museum where 3 of the original owners resided. I may be able to keep it in the family forever that way and some that used it may enjoy seeing it again. It will probably be about 10 days before I can give this my full attention again.

[Drew Hause]

Rocky: the markings on the receiver are not Belgian, and the odd rear trigger suggests that it is a low quality copy of the J Stevens Arms and Co Model 235 which was manufactured from 1912 to 1932. An example is shown here
http://www.gunsamerica.com/904677034/Guns/Shotguns/Stevens-Shotguns/STEVENS_HAMMER_GUN_12_GAUGE_MODEL_235.htm
As a piece of family history it is of course priceless, and should be retired to a place of honor in your home. Under no circumstances should it be fired.

[Rocky Nivison]

Rocky: the markings on the receiver are not Belgian, and the odd rear trigger suggests that it is a low quality copy of the J Stevens Arms and Co Model 235 which was manufactured from 1912 to 1932. An example is shown here
http://www.gunsamerica.com/904677034/Guns/Shotguns/Stevens-Shotguns/STEVENS_HAMMER_GUN_12_GAUGE_MODEL_235.htm
As a piece of family history it is of course priceless, and should be retired to a place of honor in your home. Under no circumstances should it be fired.

Thanks Drew,
Yep that’s it and thank you so very, very much. And thanks to everyone for your help and support. Looks like you were on the right track Brian. And a special thanks to the Parker Gun Co. for making this discovery possible. Now I have the information needed so maybe my great-great grand nephew can tell his class mates, this was my great-great-great-great great granddads J Stevens Arms and Co Model 235 rabbit ear shotgun. :bigbye:

[Brian Dudley]

My guess is that the rear trigger might be some home made replacement. Since it looks nothing like the front one.

[Rocky Nivison]

My guess is that the rear trigger might be some home made replacement. Since it looks nothing like the front one.

Thanks Brian,
The odd trigger may have been modified for missing fingers or something. When I saved the forum for future generations I realized I misread Drew’s quote, since I was preoccupied with my brothers arrival, and thought this gun was a J. Stevens Arms and Co Model 235. A copy may change everything. Since my great-great grandfather would not have been alive in 1912 this means the J. Stevens Arms and Co Model 235 an improved copy of this gun. J. Stevens Arms Co. may have bought this design or company and improved it. I’ll have to find out when my great-great grandfather went to the other side. It may have only belonged to my great grandfather but ether way this gun could have come first. The odd trigger may have been modified for missing fingers or something.

While I have never shot the gun my uncle told me it is ready to hunt and as an engineer and a silver smith I know he was right. The first thing people notice is how tight it is. There is not a rattle on it even when broken open. It’s not Damascus steel, that I can tell, but I wouldn’t shoot any high power shells through it regardless although it looks like it could handle them with no problem. I can’t wait till I have time to research it further. I would like to contact Stevens but just don’t have time right now, but I will and I will also find out more about my great- great granddad because I think he was a blacksmith. This gun could also have been a proto type.

The odd trigger looks to be a custom fit and the original trigger that came with the gun. Looks like an on purpose design or modification. I will have to take it apart to make sure and will eventually. I need to take the stock and forearm plate off anyway to look for marks or stamps and it needs a good cleaning anyway.

[Rocky Nivison]

I said I hope you would excuse me if I get something wrong, and I hope you will because I have been working from the wrong side of my mother’s family. It was her father’s, father’s, father’s shotgun. Flem Smith was on her mother’s side of the family. My mom is 88 years old. I think I will probably have to eliminate one of my great granddads because he may have been too old to have ever seen a center fire shotgun. My great granddad was probably the first owner of this gun. No one left living that I know knows. I will have to visit the family grave yard to find out. I doubt this gun could have been made after 1912 if my great granddad died before 1912 and was the first owner and assume this is the case. This all took place in Vernon Parish Louisiana the home of Fort Polk, one of the largest army bases in the world. This gun could have come from there.

[Rocky Nivison]

Ha Brian, it’s a 2 finger shooter. Never using a side by side or 2 trigger gun, and trying it out, I don’t think I would have any other way. The first 2 fingers of the right hand fit like a glove. This gun should be about as fast and comfortable as any single trigger model on the market today and the selection of which barrel to use “faster”. The triggers look to be original equipment and not a modification.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It's a J. Stevens for sure, I believe called the Riverside if memory serves. It's not a two finger gun, if you put both fingers inside the trigger guard the recoil of the first shot will make you pull the 2nd trigger everytime causing a double discharge. You put one finger inside at a time, that's just how it's done.


Destry

[Rocky Nivison]

It's a J. Stevens for sure, I believe called the Riverside if memory serves. It's not a two finger gun, if you put both fingers inside the trigger guard the recoil of the first shot will make you pull the 2nd trigger everytime causing a double discharge. You put one finger inside at a time, that's just how it's done.


Destry

Thank you Sir,
I was just thinking about that. Maybe it’s the WW1 army version meant to pull both triggers every time because it sure fills good that way although the one that pulls the triggers may not fill so well. Or maybe it was meant for low brass loads because it would be faster and more accurate to get rid of that thumb switch if you could overcome double ignition. Whatever the case may be thank you very, very much and as soon as all this deer hunting is over with I am going to check it out. There could only be one thing more important than something like this and it is what may be down stream of one of these things and if I thought this old rabbit ear shotgun could handle supper X X 3 1/2” magnum 000 buck shoot I would love to try it out in the morning with 2 fingers.

[Rocky Nivison]

Let’s see as it stands now we have a J Stevens Arms and Co. Model 235 2 Finger Riverside 12 Ga. Double Barrel Rabbit Ear Shot Gun. What do you think should I Asaw it off and bore it out to a 3 1/2 “magnum for title? It sure would make my great grand nephews class mate’s eyes grow a little bigger and you know how kids are, it’s going to happen someday anyway because it would then be a J Stevens Arms and Co. Model 235 2 Finger Riverside 12 Ga. 3 ½” Magnum Double Barrel Sawed Off Rabbit Ear Shot Gun the most dangerous and powerful firearm ever made. I’m going to have it disabled anyway. I couldn’t sleep; passing it on to family, if I didn’t have it disabled because it’s sure enough must be the most dangerous firearm ever made like it stands now. I will probably have to donate it to the local museum to keep something like that from ever happening.

[Brian Dudley]

I don't quite follow you Rocky... It's just a beat up old hammer gun that has some home made replacement parts on it.

[Rocky Nivison]

I don't quite follow you Rocky... It's just a beat up old hammer gun that has some home made replacement parts on it.

Thanks Brian,
It’s a mystery Brian, a what it is, what it was, and what’s it going to be. Something everyone can enjoy. A priceless air-loom regardless of how worthless it is. I found out yesterday the house my grandmother was born in may become another museum of Vernon Parish. This gun was major part of that family and I am sure they all used it and probably would be a better home. Again, to the museum, Pricless. I would like to find out as much about it before passing it on.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

If you try to fire that gun with fingers on both triggers then both barrels will go off, it won't matter what kind of shells you're shooting. If you're actually serious about shooting 3 1/2 magum shells in it then I would question your sanity. They do have fluid steel barrels, at least every one I've ever seen, so you could shoot regular field loads in it without a problem if the wall thickness was good. But anything else would just be silly in a cheap old gun like that.


Destry

[edgarspencer]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260887014#PIC

It's a Riverside Arms, before Stevens bought them out

[Rocky Nivison]

If you try to fire that gun with fingers on both triggers then both barrels will go off, it won't matter what kind of shells you're shooting. If you're actually serious about shooting 3 1/2 magum shells in it then I would question your sanity. They do have fluid steel barrels, at least every one I've ever seen, so you could shoot regular field loads in it without a problem if the wall thickness was good. But anything else would just be silly in a cheap old gun like that.


Destry

Thank you Sir,
Even though I too know it would handle high power loads I don’t think I will ever shoot the gun unless for prosperity with 2 low brass loads. If I bored it out to 3 ½” and sawed off the barrel and stock it would just be for the grand kids to play with and Mama to scare off burglars. I would remove the firing pins and braze the holes before doing that. It would take at least an 18 point buck with a 28” spread and 4 fingers of something else before I would fire it like that with 2.

[Rocky Nivison]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260887014#PIC

It's a Riverside Arms, before Stevens bought them out

Thank you Mr. Spencer
With out a stamp and possable a WWI triger becouse that odd looking trigger is oragional and has always been part of the gun as far as I can tell. It may also be a proto type from Fort Polk La.

[Bruce Day]

It appears I was wrong thinking it was a bottom end Belgium gun and people here think its maybe a Stevens or a Riverside or something special like that. Its certainly not a gun that we see a lot of here.

But this is a Parker website and people here know a lot about Parkers and maybe not others. From what I've seen, there are a lot of experts on www.doublegunshop.com (http://www.doublegunshop.com)
who may know the history of these amazing guns and may be able to fill you in on all the details.

Bruce Day, unreformed Yankee Air Pirate and Parker fool

[Rocky Nivison]

It appears I was wrong thinking it was a bottom end Belgium gun and people here think its maybe a Stevens or a Riverside or something special like that. Its certainly not a gun that we see a lot of here.

But this is a Parker website and people here know a lot about Parkers and maybe not others. From what I've seen, there are a lot of experts on www.doublegunshop.com (http://www.doublegunshop.com)
who may know the history of these amazing guns and may be able to fill you in on all the details.

Bruce Day, unreformed Yankee Air Pirate and Parker fool


Thanks Bruce,
Does that mean I shouldn’t saw off the stock and barrel and bore it out to 3 1/2”? If it is a WWI gun the WWI museum in Kansas City may want it because it may be too valuable for a local museum to keep up with. I’ll check out that web site just as soon as all this deer hunting is over with.

[Bruce Day]

Well Rocky, if you want this heirloom as a goose gun, you shouldn't saw off the stock and ruin its value. That much I know and will leave the rest to the experts.

On museums, don't aim too low like the little museum in Kansas City. You missed the PGCA annual meeting at the fine arms museum in Louisville KY but there is always that and maybe even the Smithsonian. You want to find a place where the curator appreciates the gun for what it is.

[Rocky Nivison]

Well Rocky, if you want this heirloom as a goose gun, you shouldn't saw off the stock and ruin its value. That much I know and will leave the rest to the experts.

On museums, don't aim too low like the little museum in Kansas City. You missed the PGCA annual meeting at the fine arms museum in Louisville KY but there is always that and maybe even the Smithsonian. You want to find a place where the curator appreciates the gun for what it is.

Thanks Bruce, and :bigbye:Thank You So Very, Very Much Everybody
And a very, very, special thanks to Parker Arms Co. for making this forum possible. My next shotgun is most defiantly going to be a Parker. I have already decided 2 years ago that my next rifle is going to be a pistol. A T/C Arms and Co. Pro Hunter SS .223 with a 15” barrel and rifle scope unless Parker Arms Co. makes such a thing and then it too will be a Parker. Every since they changed the rules in Texas for gun hunting 2 years ago to one un branched antler and 13 7/8” or bigger, I would rather hunt squirrels and carry that .223 in a shoulder holster just in case that spike shows up. I can’t eat horns so I prefer a cross bow or late muzzle loading season when I can hunt for what I like, the venison. And now that we know about everything we need to learn the rest I may try about 4 fingers of that other stuff and take this cell phone I am using for a modem with a couple of low brass outside and try out that old Riverside 2 finger rabbit ear shotgun one finger at a time, I hope. So if you don’t hear from me until after Thanksgiving you’ll know why. I’m hunting.

[edgarspencer]

Even though I too know it would handle high power loads I'm fairly certain no one else here told you it would handle 'high power loads, and I seriously doubt it would be real happy. I don’t think I will ever shoot the gun unless for prosperity with 2 low brass loads.Do you mean posterity? If I bored it out to 3 ½” and sawed off the barrel and stock it would just be for the grand kids to play with and Mama to scare off burglars. I would remove the firing pins and braze the holes before doing that Why bother 'boring it out to 3 1/2" then? The curator of that polk something museum probably would be upset it wasn't original anymore.
It's not a prototype anything. It's a Twelve dollar shotgun from Chicopee Mass.

[Bruce Day]

So Edgar, your suggestion would be to preserve the gun in all its glory as a museum piece rather than lessening its value by modifications?

I wonder if that is just an elitist, purist view?

Bruce Day, Parker beginner

[Brian Dudley]

All I can say is that this whole thread is a bit odd to say the least...

But I stand corrected on that trigger setup on that gun. Surprised to see the same thing on that gunbroker auction. That one is in good shape for what it is.

[edgarspencer]

So Edgar, your suggestion would be to preserve the gun in all its glory as a museum piece rather than lessening its value by modifications?

I wonder if that is just an elitist, purist view?

Bruce Day, Parker beginner
Oh, Most definitely, Bruce. It isn't often one gets to see such a piece.
Edgar Spencer, Elitist Purist, 3rd class.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I'll actually confess to owning one of these guns, mine is even 32 inch. I shoot it with one finger and it kills squirrels pretty good, have shot a duck or two with it over the years as well. A purist or an elitist I ain't.......


DLH

[edgarspencer]

I thought Bruce was kidding when he said that, but maybe not.

[Rocky Nivison]

Sawing off the stock and 18” of barrels turned it into the perfect quail gun with high brass and 2 fingers. It will cover every inch of a double barn door with 1 shot and 2 shells low brass from 20 feet. Besides I never would have been able to keep a priceless museum peace like that in the family. Now that it’s worthless again the grand kids will love it and a burglar would go through a sliding glass door without even opening it when they see mama with this thing. I’m going to put a sling swivel on the forearm and hook a bungee cord to my belt before I try it with high brass to keep the rabbit ears from hitting me between mine. If you can get it legalized for bird hunting I’ll bet it can knock down at least 10 birds with 1 shot 2 shells. Put a shock in the stock you could leave the barrels long and wouldn't need but 1 trigger 1 shot 2 shells. Use the thumb switch for 1 or 2 shots at a time. That way you would have the fastest and most accurate shotguns in the world. Just kidding. So what do you think the blue book value on something like this old 2 finger 1 shot 2 shell rabbit ear is? I still need to find the model and year of production but figure you all are probably tired of fooling with this thing not being a Parker and understand if you don't want to.

[charlie cleveland]

rocky i think leave grand pas gun alone...it is what it is acrown jewel of the famiy...something to be treasured and admired.it dont matter the condition of the gun be it junk or a high condition gun..i would treasure it in any kind of condition... charlie

[Dave Noreen]

The original gun that started this thread was made either by J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., prior to WW-I, or J. Stevens Arms Co., after The Great War. Two guns designed by Stevens' designer, George S. Lewis, were introduced in the the J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. General Catalog No. 54. A hammer double called the Riverside Arms Co. No. 215 was based on U.S. Patent No. 1,086,378 granted Feb 10, 1914; and a hammerless double called the Riverside Arms Co. No. 315 was based on U.S. Patent No. 1,136,247 granted Apr. 20, 1915. Both of these designed featured the use of coil springs. J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co. decided to market these lower priced guns under the Riverside Arms Co. name rather than detract from the Stevens name. Both of these guns continued to be made after The Great War, but about 1928/9 the J. Stevens Arms Co. changed the name of their low priced line from Riverside to Springfield Arms Co. The hammer gun No. 215 continued to be offered through the June 1932 price list, but is gone by the 1933 catalogues and price lists. In addition to being marked Riverside or Springfield, Stevens made and marked these guns for numerous hardware chains and mail order houses.

[Daryl Corona]

Dave,
You truly amaze me with your factoids. Thank you. I never get tired of reading your posts no matter what site they are on.

[Rocky Nivison]

Thanks, everyone
What can I say, to be Frank also, I’m not a collector and never heard of Parker either, since they stopped publishing the sears catalog, I can’t keep up with things like that anymore. It was fun.
:bigbye:

God only knows how much I hate a planted pine for the harm it has on the forest for there has never been a word written worth reading or an ass wiped worth saving from the paper it makes and it is the most flammable building material on the planet. It offers nothing but harm for both plant and animal. Rocky Darwin Nivison