Parker Laminated Steel Barrels and Guns

[Bruce Day]

1878, 1879 Parkers with Lamainated Steel barrels, a distinctive herringbone pattern.

[Dean Romig]

The distinctive herringbone pattern of the barrels on that Grade 4 are known as English Laminated and are visually different from other known "laminated" barrels. The Laminated Steel barrels on Grade 1 Parkers are quite different as is plainly illustrated below.


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[Dave Suponski]

Dean, Thanks for showing that great gun!

[Bruce Day]

The Bernards, high grade Laminated, Stars and Stripes, and all the stand out damascus patterns to me are the essence of many distinctive Parkers. Hope you like them as much as I do. Some 480 Bernards were made so if a person really wants to acquire one, even accounting for attrition, they are to be found.

[Mark Landskov]

Very nice, Bruce. My 1879 Grade 2 Lifter 10 gauge has 'Laminated Steel' barrels, also. They are in great condition and have the Herringbone appearance. The gun has been restocked and needs some TLC.

[Jeff Mayhew]

Beautiful, just beautiful. I learned my lesson in another post, and won't ask how to visually identify "laminated" barrels. I've seen examples all over the map (and I'm not unfamiliar with "patterned" steel in swords, as a collector).

I'll leave it to the experts! Thanks for sharing the knowledge and the pictures!

[Bill Murphy]

I wish I knew what the pattern looks like on my little PH grade Laminated 20, but it's a little on the brown side.

[Dean Romig]

"Laminated" on a PH?? :shock: I thought the PH's had Twist Steel barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, it's a nice little all original 0 frame 28" PH 20 with barrel rib marked "Laminated Steel". Picked off a young lady's table at the Baltimore Show about three years ago. Nope, never saw one before, couldn't resist. Mullins and Price found 20 Lam1 hammerless guns, but didn't say how many were twenties. My guess would be about one.

[Dean Romig]

What luck!! I'd guess "about one" also.

Though the rib is marked "Laminated Steel" have you verified the barrels are in fact laminated and Parker Bros. wasn't simply using up the "Laminated Steel" ribs?

Either way, it is a rarity.

[Bill Murphy]

No, Dean, it is not a twist gun. I can see enough of the finish to know that it is Laminated Steel. Some day I will have the barrels refinished and uncover the true character of the Laminated Steel. A brown gun such as this has to be cleaned up very carefully to avoid the refinished look. I will not put up with a gun that looks pimped up. Of course the "Gold Hearts Gun" is an exception to that rule. Please reply to my email about the Norris gun.

[Drew Hause]

Our friend's first gun (is it a $200 grade?) does indeed have Herringbone barrels, also called Lutticher (Liege) "Toncin", but they are damascus and not Laminated Steel.
Most examples are found on Lindner Daly's, but the pattern was also used on high grade Smiths and Lefevers
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20948056

The second gun has Laminated Steel barrels

Long version :eek:
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_52fs85cfgt

Short version :)
Laminated Steel differs from Damascus in that:
1. Laminated Steel has a higher steel to iron ratio, with higher quality steel.
2. Laminated Steel starts with the iron and steel mixed together (puddled) in a semi-molten state (the bloom) which is then hammered or rolled into rods. Damascus starts with individual strips of iron and steel.
3. Laminated Steel rods are twisted less than Damascus.
4. Laminated Steel rods may be subjected to additional rolling or hammering.

[Drew Hause]

At the risk of opening a can of worms, and recognizing only 3-4 of us really care :)

There are several Laminated Steel patterns

Belgian "Pointille"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/330752466.jpg

A Mosaic pattern

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/332374353.jpg

A Herringbone pattern (which is quite different from the 1st gun) and which Greener called "Angularly Laminated"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/368677950.jpg

Greener's "Silver Steel"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/256132943.jpg

and to confuse things even more, a "Laminated Damascus" :banghead:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18063717/306344715.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Please reply to my email about the Norris gun.


Bill, I received no email from you about the Norris gun. Don't tease me like that!!

Now please send me that email... please.

Is it the one we had talked of earlier or is it the other Norris gun??

[Drew Hause]

Austin's Grade 3 with possible Parker Bros. produced Laminated Steel showing the weld line between poorly matched segments

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/387027190.jpg

Parker Mosaic

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/304215745.jpg

Parker "Pointille"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17227428/299792520.jpg

[Bruce Day]

Our friend's first gun (is it a $200 grade?) does indeed have Herringbone barrels, also called Lutticher (Liege) "Toncin", but they are damascus and not Laminated Steel....


I would not know anything about that. Here are the barrels again showing the Parker Laminated Steel designation. The Serialization Book shows this gun as the first of only five grade 4 guns with laminated steel barrels.

[Drew Hause]

Not sure if this is our friend's Grade 3 also marked Laminated Steel

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/337817308.jpg

But what remains of the pattern may also be Toncin

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/391082290.jpg

[Bill Murphy]

Dean, I sent you a PM. I guess my email address for you is incorrect.

[Paul Harm]

Bill, I feel hurt by your comments about a "pimped look" - many of my guns, "beaters" by some standards, have had the barrels redone.:crying: Should I sell them ?:banghead: I always thought any gun with damascus barrels worth shooting should have the barrels looking as nice as possible so everyone could appreciate the art of barrel making. Maybe I'll just leave them in the gun closet so no one will see what a mistake I made. :) Paul

[Bill Murphy]

I did say I was planning on having the Lam1 20 gauge barrels redone. Pimped up means the full treatment, including bad stock refinish and bad case colors.

[Paul Harm]

Why would you want bad case colors and bad stock refinish? Just send it to Brad Bachelder for the proper barrel and stock refinish and proper case colors. Paul

[charlie cleveland]

can the pattern onthese barrels be brought back if they are in a very poor state...such as badlyrusted or worn to the white.... charlie

[Paul Harm]

yes - Brads number is 616-459-3636 - Paul

[Mark Ouellette]

Charlie,

Please look at my LC Smith Chain Damascus photo album at: http://parkerguns.org/forums/album.php?albumid=226
Make sure you look at the before photos.

I've had Brad restore a dozen or more sets of Parker and LC Smith Damascus barrels and am please with every set. There isn't much that Brad Bachelder can't do to restore a gun. What he can't do I have not yet discovered.

Mark

[Richard Flanders]

That is impressive indeed. Can't say I've seen a better restoration. It can't possibly have looked much if any better straight out of the box new. What a beauty. I like the micro welding idea. That can fix a lot of issues that just can't be fixed otherwise.

[charlie cleveland]

mark that truly a great gun...brad has brought beauty back to that old ten...brad is truly a master craftsman.. i have several old guns that look like yours before you sent them to brad...i must say this lc smith sure must be a shooter with those chokes.... charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Charlie,

I am certain that there are other double-gunsmiths who are skilled but Brad is who get's my fun money! He always treats me well and on the few occasion that I had a concern, he happily redid the work to my satisfaction. Restoring a 110+ year old firearm is as much art as science.

The Grade 2 LC Smith is choked a little too tight for the Nice Shot that I use. I shoot geese for the freezer on my pond with 10 gauge Parkers with barrel constrictions of .030" out to 60 yards. I have put down 5 (in early season) with my 1 3/8 oz load of Nice Shot #2 more than once! I used this Smith trying to put down a group of geese at 55 yards and ended up with one very dead goose. I think this gun would truely be a 70 yard gun if I could hit anything at that range!!!

Mark

[charlie cleveland]

mark i also have a very tite choked lc smith 10 ga...it will out shoot any gun i have as far as putting shot in a can at 55 steps...i woulds say your gun would kill a goose at 70 yards and mite do it at 75 yards.. hope you get a chance someday to try it... i just got threw shooting a 10 ga buckshot load that i had lost last year in my shooting house..it laid on the shooting window ledge from last seaso till this one...was in the sun and moisture setting on that ledge it does not have glass in in it...was afraid it probably not go off but i put up paper target and tried it...used the old p grade parker 10...the shell firerd ok and i put all 000 8 of them in the circle...i was suprized and proud at the same time...woulda been a dead dear on paper... loaded up 5 more rounds of 000 buck boy did i look good on paper..even shot the old 8 ga pumpkin ball load once from 37 steps i look good on paper with it too...hoping to stretch my range a little bit with it hopefully out to 50 steps but got to shoot it a little more...but at 35 steps i should be ok if i ever get a shot with it...ive still got 6 weeks left of deer season just maybe... charlie

[Drew Hause]

Back to the original images posted by Bro. Day. Our friend sent me high resolution pics of the 1879 B and I now believe the barrels are also Toncin and not laminated steel. AND I found another gun owned by the same fella, a D Lifter, which might have the same pattern.
Please see http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/23997270

It would be fascinating to know how/why these high grade barrels appeared on late 1870s C&B Lifters. Were they left over from the D.B. Wesson supply? Did Wesson's barrel guy go over to Meriden and make some Laminated steel and Twist barrels in-house in that same time frame??

See http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz

[Drew Hause]

Looks to be another one. This is the c. 1878 Grade 3 20g now on the Julia site. This is the best image, though difficult to confirm the pattern. It is also marked 'Laminated Steel'

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/23997270/401110182.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Very interesting Drew... Is 6490 the order number or the serial number? what is the serial number? One would more expect to see Damascus barrels on a Grade 3 Lifter, but then, the serial number may shed a bit more light on the "why" of laminated Steel on a Grade 3.

Can we presume the J.S to be Stoker?

[Drew Hause]

It's item 1122 http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_320.asp?pageREQ=1

[Dean Romig]

A wonderful Parker!

What's with that silly pre auction estimate of $3K - $5K ??? :shock:

[Dave Suponski]

Yes, That would be John Stokes marking.

[E Robert Fabian]

Sure would like to shoot around of sporting clays with that thing.

[Dean Romig]

I'd like to make it my "go to" grouse and woodcock gun.

[Steve Huffman]

Who had the strongest Laminated Steel Barrels ? This all blows my mind ! (whats left of it ) Didnt Parker use imported barrels woulnt they be as strong or weak as English ect ?

[Drew Hause]

Pattern welded (Twist, Crolle Damascus, Laminated Steel) barrel quality (strength and aesthetics) should be assessed based on the overall quality of the gun
I do not believe there is any meaningful difference in strength of any high quality barrel (Twist, Crolle Damascus, Laminated Steel)
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1YJxP1k3PzmtmrG1HEGxd8X6g0-1GL0KNY8WMIMkdKr0

Frederick Toms' Sporting Guns and Gunpowder, 1896
'Experiments On the Strength of Gunbarrels' starting on p.9
http://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA16&lpg

"These experiments serve to show what a very large margin of strength there is in a good gunbarrel, when ordinary charges are used. They also tend to prove that the brazing process (if properly carried out) does not injure the metal to any appreciable extent. It has frequently been alleged, by opponents of the proof test, that, although the barrels may pass through the proof without any apparent injury, yet the large charge strains the metal to such an extent that the barrels are likely to burst afterwards when used with ordinary charges. The fallacy of this argument appears obvious when the fact is taken into consideration that the barrels which gave way earliest under these tests had withstood the strains of nearly thirty successive trials, the first of which was rather more severe than the definitive proof charge, and the average of the whole was about four times as great as the regulation proof; while the steel barrels were tested forty times, with charges averaging nearly five times as much as the ordinary proof-charge. Taking the cumulative grain test, as calculated in the Birmingham experiments, the strains undergone by each of the two steel barrels were rather over 110 times as great as that of the definitive proof test; and those of the Damascus were rather over 120 times the definitive proof in the case of the barrel that had undergone the brazing process, and nearly 130 times in the barrel that wae not brazed. So that, although the steel barrels showed the greater amount of endurance, the strength of the Damascus was so much in excess of all ordinary requirements that no fear need be felt of their giving way when the work is properly done."

[Brad Bachelder]

I have had the oportunity to Restore most of the various types of laminate barrels. As with twist, most will yield predictable contrast with our standard techniques. The exception is in English Laminate. The type frquently found in graded Lefevers. The contrast is much more subtle and fine grained. It is my opinion that the composites used are a higher quality than standard. This holds true in dent removal, soldering and striking. The metal is very tight grained and devoid of porosity.
I believe that English Laminate tubes were some of the highest quality
available to the American market.

Brad

[Steve Huffman]

I picked up a sxs with hammers this weekend marked Saxton England and the rib has Laminated Steel England would this be the same tubes for the American market ,they have what seems to be English proof marks .

[Bill Murphy]

The sources for various composite barrels for makers from many countries are pretty much the same. Drew can clarify.

[Drew Hause]

I agree with Brad, and here's an example of 'British Best Laminated Steel', the winner of the Birmingham Proof House Trial

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20258609/334914148.jpg

Steve: there were both English and Belgian 'Saxton' guns; the English usually have W. Bentley Pat. and Birmingham proofs. The Belgian were by both Ferdinand Drissen and Neumann Freres
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20d/a%20drissen%20gb.htm

Please keep in mind that both English and Belgian guns with Twist barrels are frequently marked "Laminated Steel", and the vast majority of tubes found on Birmingham, and some London, guns were sourced in Belgium.

[Steve Huffman]

So would the quality of the twist barrels be as what we have with our Parker Twist barrels?

[Drew Hause]

Barrel quality should be assessed based on the overall quality of the gun.

[Steve Huffman]

I agree .This gun is as tight as they come. Barrels have very min. pitting I have not measured barrels walls but will soon didnt looked to be messed with , I just liked it when I saw it and what the heck 225.00 aint the end of the world .Some day I will learn to post pictures , watch out when I do.
Thanks