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View Full Version : Can I reload old fashioned paper shells?


Steve McCarty
09-30-2011, 02:10 PM
I'm new to shotshell reloading, but have used all kinds of reloading tools for rifle and pistols for over half a century.

Here's what I want to do: Use a Lee Load All to reload old fashioned paper shells with a roll crimp. Does that happen anymore?

Am I stuck with plastic cases, a star crimp and plastic shot cup wads? Is it that much easier to use plastic wads and cases rather than paper shells and fiber wads?

If it is too much of a pain to reload paper shells I'll go ahead and use plastic, but I miss the feel of a paper shell in my hand and those old fiber wads flying out there in front of me.

Does anyone out there use the Lee Loader Load All? I've used those old Lee rifle/pistol hand loading tools since I was a kid and since I don't reload hundreds of rounds they work fine for me. They are also simplier and simple is good.

Dave Suponski
09-30-2011, 03:18 PM
Steve,If you are going to get into reloading I would suggest buying a MEC reloader. They are a great machine and can be had on the used market in 12 gauge for short money. Others will chime in here on reloading paper shells. Quite a few of our members do and nothing beats the smell of a just fired paper shell.Well....almost nothing.

Chuck Bishop
09-30-2011, 04:14 PM
In the old days, I reloaded Federal Papers exclusively with plastic wads and Red Dot powder on both a Ponsness and Mec. They had the 6 star crimps and of course the smell was like perfume:whistle:

While I've never used a roll crimper, there is no reason you can't roll crimp them and use either felt wads or plastic wads. Certainly it's faster and easier to use plastic wads. I guess it all depends on how many shells you have to load. If you only use them for hunting it wouldn't be too time consuming but if you shoot a lot of clay targets, it could get take you a long time just to load 100 shells. If you really want to use fibre/felt wads, you can get them here: http://www.circlefly.com/ Do a search for other threads on this site for suggestions on roll crimping.

Mark Landskov
09-30-2011, 06:16 PM
-Steve, it may depend on how old your paper hulls are. Reloading data revolves around individual hull designs.
-In the case of modern plastic hulls, there can be numerous internal differences amongst each manufacturer's offerings. There are two types of Remington 10 gauge hulls, for example. One is for lead loads and the other is for steel loads. There is actually quite a bit of difference in the internal volume between the two.
-Anyways, without beating this up too bad, your choice of hulls may make proper load data difficult to obtain without consulting out-of-date loading manuals. I don't have any old manuals, but I am sure there are more than a handful out there amongst the seasoned handloaders.
-I just started loading shotshells for my short tens and have consulted the DGJ and Sherman Bell's tested loads. So far, so good.
-I use a roll crimper from Precision Reloading and it works wonders! I applied a wee bit of paste wax to enhance the operation. I bet it would work great on paper. Cheers!

Bruce Day
09-30-2011, 06:49 PM
I don't know if they are old fashioned, but Federal sells hundreds of thousands of rounds of newly made paper hulls every year. I buy 5-6 cases every year. I get at least one, maybe two reloads out of them, less than plastic hulls. I use a MEC progressive loader. The Hogdan reloading manuals list loads for them, have you looked there?

Steve McCarty
09-30-2011, 07:25 PM
In the old days, I reloaded Federal Papers exclusively with plastic wads and Red Dot powder on both a Ponsness and Mec. They had the 6 star crimps and of course the smell was like perfume:whistle:

While I've never used a roll crimper, there is no reason you can't roll crimp them and use either felt wads or plastic wads. Certainly it's faster and easier to use plastic wads. I guess it all depends on how many shells you have to load. If you only use them for hunting it wouldn't be too time consuming but if you shoot a lot of clay targets, it could get take you a long time just to load 100 shells. If you really want to use fibre/felt wads, you can get them here: http://www.circlefly.com/ Do a search for other threads on this site for suggestions on roll crimping.

I am going to start off easy. I do think I'll buy a Lee Load All in 12 gauge, use plastic and plastic wads. Seems the easiest. Then I'll evaluate my successes and see what else I can do. I load for a lot of old rifles, a 577 Snider, 577/450MH, 45/70, .303 British, 7.7 Jap; stuff like that. When I was a kid everytime I bought an old rifle I'd spring for a Lee Loader. In those days they made them in almost all calibers and I still use them today. Lee Loaders are no longer a hot item, but it takes me as long to load up 20 rounds in an old Lee Loader as it does to set up my dies if I'm using a standard press. Except for when crimping the rounds are fine.

Steve McCarty
09-30-2011, 08:54 PM
I don't know if they are old fashioned, but Federal sells hundreds of thousands of rounds of newly made paper hulls every year. I buy 5-6 cases every year. I get at least one, maybe two reloads out of them, less than plastic hulls. I use a MEC progressive loader. The Hogdan reloading manuals list loads for them, have you looked there?

I have not even purchased my press. I'm just in the "Think I'll start reloading shotshells phase."

I'm going to be totally honest here. I've always been put off at shotshell reloading because it seemed so complex. How can that be? Loading for rifles/pistols has always been pretty easy. I've been reloading rifle/pistol rounds for decades. My entire adult life. Also, historically, shotshells weren't that expensive. I'd buy a case or two a year and they'd tide me over. Now I'm entering this damascus shotgun phase and while I can buy Polywad and RST shells...I'm thinking about reloading. I want to charge up some non-toxic 16s too, and I can never find non-toxic shells for my 16s locally.

I also want to load some heavy 12s; non-toxic that I can shoot in my Win Model 12s. I could kill a dozen geese daily outside my back door with a baseball bat - nearly. It's posted however, and I have to drive about a mile to get to legal shooting.

Marc Retallack
09-30-2011, 09:44 PM
Steve

I have the Lee Load All in 12ga and 16ga. My recommendation would be to listen to Dave's advice and look for a used MEC for a bit more money. As far as non-tox shot, consider Nice Shot http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=NICE_SHOT
Expensive but I doubt you'll be disappointed with it's performance.

Cheers
Marcus

Frank Cronin
09-30-2011, 10:00 PM
Steve,

I think you are over thinking reloading shot shells especially if you have been re-loading pistol and rifle as long you have. I believe it is easier. It is essentially the same as metallic reloading but just using different components. Re-size the hull and de-cap the primer, seat new primer, add powder, insert wad, add shot, and crimp. Just follow the recipes exactly provided in the loading book or from the powder manufacture and you'll be fine.

And the advantages is just like metallic reloading. For 357 Magnum for example you can load 158 grain SWC lead plinkers for the range, easy on the shooter and the gun or switch to full house flame thrower loads with Winchester 296. :eek:

For Damascus barrels and 100 year old wood, I like IMR 7625 powder, 1 oz. of shot for my low pressure loads. (5100 PSI, 1050 velocity) So I don't have all this extra powder, I also like 7625 for my plinker 44 Magnum loads using my pre-29 Smith revolver and I get pretty good accuracy from 25 yards. It's dirty and smoky but the clays or the birds never knew the difference.

Mark Landskov
09-30-2011, 10:35 PM
What Frank said! I was apprehensive about loading shotshells for the same reasons. My 'Laminated' and 'Twist' barrel short tens require special ammunition, so I had to confront my fears and get on with it! I use Hodgdon Clays for a nice one ounce load in 2-7/8" 10 gauge shells for my Baker. I have not tried the gun on grouse yet, but testing clearly displayed deadly patterns at 40 yards. Good luck!

Steve McCarty
10-01-2011, 05:11 PM
Studied the MEC site. Think the Jr. 500 looks like the ticket. Eveyone suggests that I go to the MEC and of course I've seen them around for decades. I will probably look at the Lee Loader Load All too, just for the heck of it.

My Lefever is a light barreled gun too, but not damascus. I think it'd be better to shoot lighter loads in her too.

I am drawn to the beauty and balace of the damascus GH. While not light as a feather she comes up great and balances well. She needs to be shot, and frankly I'm looking forward to the other shooters' comments.

Bruce Day
10-01-2011, 05:56 PM
I believe the more a person is around Parkers and Parker damascus barrels, the more he will learn ( even a Marine) to appreciate and trust these barrels. I'll take a damascus gun over fluid steel.

Steve McCarty
10-01-2011, 07:19 PM
I am looking forward to my experiments shooting my new GH made in 1895. I have been shooting a damascus muzzle loader, which is really a twist barrel for half a century, but not that much and not for a long time. Had it inspected however and it received a full bill of health.

I suppose some kinds of twist barrels are better than others, and as I study this I find that there are several (many?) different kinds of bar and weld barrels wrapped around a mandrel. I assume that the "fine damascus" barrels advertised by Parker are the best and therefore the strongest.

Steve McCarty
10-01-2011, 07:34 PM
I believe the more a person is around Parkers and Parker damascus barrels, the more he will learn ( even a Marine) to appreciate and trust these barrels. I'll take a damascus gun over fluid steel.

Huh? We never said we were smart. No smart person would put up with what we put up with. Lousy chow, lived in holes in the ground, got rained on, didn't sleep for days on end, were issued old worn out army gear and stayed nose to nose with the enemy and then chewed his head off. Fresh meat. When we got to town we got drunk, got into fights with squids and dogfaces and after a few weeks had to visit the doctor.

Nope, not smart at all. It didn't matter. Just ask the bad guys...those few who survived that is.

Pete Lester
10-01-2011, 07:34 PM
Studied the MEC site. Think the Jr. 500 looks like the ticket. Eveyone suggests that I go to the MEC and of course I've seen them around for decades. I will probably look at the Lee Loader Load All too, just for the heck of it.

My Lefever is a light barreled gun too, but not damascus. I think it'd be better to shoot lighter loads in her too.

I am drawn to the beauty and balace of the damascus GH. While not light as a feather she comes up great and balances well. She needs to be shot, and frankly I'm looking forward to the other shooters' comments.

Get the MEC and don't look back. They don't wear out and parts are readily available. $50 to $60 bucks tops with shipping is what I'd look for. Once you buy it figure out what you need for bars and bushings and order them from MEC.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mec-600-jr-shotgun-shell-reloader-12ga-/300603590898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fd5ec8f2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEC-600-Jr-12-Ga-Shotgun-Reloader-/110748263136?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c91c62e0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mec-600-Jr-12Ga-Shotgun-Reloader-/110748266820?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c91c7144

Bruce Day
10-01-2011, 07:34 PM
There has been no evidence, historical or contemporary, that suggests that any Parker composite barrel type is stronger than any other, nor any evidence that suggests that any Parker fluid steel type is stronger than any other.

All barrels used by Parker were the strongest available of their day.

"Best" is a subjective term. Some types are prettier than others to some people and some have been demonstrated to finish finer than others.

Rich Anderson
10-01-2011, 07:48 PM
I have used Mec press's for years and currently load 12,16,&20 all 2 1/2 low pressure using a Mec sizemaster. IF you are going to load the shorter shell there is a "short kit" you will need also. I have a friend who was reloading paper hulls all 2 3/4 but they didn't reload very well. The are nice to hunt with esp when roll crimped. theres something nostalgic about being afield with a damascuss 0 frame 16 and roll crimped paper hulls.

Brian Erickson at New Era Ammunition is doing some work using a 2 inch roll crimped 16 paper shell. These are really cool. Basically its a 28ga load in a 16ga hull. Great on grouse, Woodcock and Quail:bowdown:

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 01:01 AM
I'm going to wait to buy the MEC after I get my GH. Maybe in a week or two. I live in two homes, a cabin along a little river in central Oregon and a house in town, where we cocoon during the winter. That's where my guns are. Am working on a book and plan to spend time attending gun shows, and messing with my gun collection. They are my old friends you know. Am looking forward to hitting the computer to start writing.

Winter is a long time however, especially when football season ends. Then it's reloading time and shooting clays time.

Dave Suponski
10-02-2011, 09:01 AM
Steve, Sounds like you have a plan! What will your book be about may I ask?

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 01:09 PM
Steve, Sounds like you have a plan! What will your book be about may I ask?

I thought you'd never ask! Now, prepare yourself; my story is strange. As a preface one must understand that I was raised not far from Dodge City, Kansas where in my youth the bird hunting was out of this world. The sky was black with bob white quail, pheasants, dove and ducks gallore. I hunted with my dad and his dad and about a dozen uncles. We knew everyone in town and in the "country" and could hunt about any place that we wanted to. In short, it was a little slice of Heaven. A corner in the living room was always stacked with shotguns. Around the dinner table the topic of conversation was the wheat, cattle and hog prices, hunting and tales of the Old West. My family you see were there.

My imagination took off as I walked the streets of Dodge, or Mead or Bucklin and in the hollows alongside stream beds where a dugout had been. One could find rusted tin cans with soldered seams, lengths of flattened stove pipe, a half buried potbelly stove, the head of a rake. There was always a long dead but towering silver trunked cottonwood, it's twisted limbs casting ghostly shadows over where the dugout and its human contents had lived.

After college I went to the Marine Corps, after that I became a history teacher. I became a fan and avid student of the Old West, but I always had been. I traveled to all of the places where Wyatt Earp and George Custer had traveled. I studied Billy the Kid, whose last name is the same as mine. I went to Lincoln where the kid escaped from jail and murdered his jailors, the building still looms over the one main street in town and is little changed, neither is the town. I read the books on the subject and studied the illustrations.

Just after Christmas, 2006 my wife gave me a direct order to get a haircut. I drove to town, but the barbershop was full with no seats. I backed outside. To avoid an artic wind I stepped into to a little antique shop. I saw a display of tintypes. I picked one up and was introduced to a young man who looked just like my grandfather when he was of a similar age. The boy was Billy the Kid. I found sixty pictures that included some of his fellow "Regulators", a few of his enemies, and Sallie Chisum's entire family. Sallie Chisum, who must have gathered the collection, of course danced with the kid. Her uncle was the wealthiest man about. The pictures have never been seen before and are mostly like new. Eventually I found Sallie's living relatives who live not far from me. They had sold the pictures after an attic scouring event, not knowing who they were of. I do.

That is my story.

I'll post a few of them. If anyone out there is a student of the Lincoln County War or has an interest in Billy the Kid or his pals and would like to see a picture of a specific person just ask and if I have it, I'll put it up. I have many photos of people who do not have other pictures of them to match mine to, but never mind, there is other evidence to their identities and often written descriptions that show that my tintype is authentic.

Steve

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 01:31 PM
I have two pictures of Billy the Kid, aka Billy Bonney, aka Henry McCarty, aka William Henry McCarty. They were taken about three years apart and show that his appearance changed during the intervening years, which had been hard ones. The younger of the two Billy's was probably taken in March 1878 at the Chisum ranch. The photographer's name is written along the bottom of the image. It is George W. Morgan. I found many other pictures with his name afixed, but most do not. I suspect he ran out of embossed frames. I eventually drove to his hometown and found hundreds more of his pictures stored in the Historical Society there. Several of them were of Lincoln County War people and several of them are of well know people who Sallie Chisum also collected pictures of. Pretty compelling evidence.

Here's the Kid:


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Regulators/TheKidasinlife.jpg

Frank Cronin
10-02-2011, 01:49 PM
Yep... you can write a book. Very cool story and picture.

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 01:51 PM
Billy, as you can see, is disarmingly youthful and innocent looking. People during his day saw this too. By the time this picture was taken he had already killed a man, Francis "Windy" Cahill in a bar fight. You can decide how old he looks as well as I can. If you match this picture to the famous one that just sold for a jillion $ you can tell that this is the same fellow. Not his lips closed over his buck teeth, which distorts his jaw line a little. His clear, what were blue, eyes, wild wavy hair (the style of the time) full cheeks, long crooked nose and and narrow but full lips. All tintypes (Ferrotypes) are mirrow images, so here you see the kid backwards. The brow over his right eye was bent and over his left arched. Here you see them backwards.

He comes out nearly life sized! The original is very small, about the size of George Washinton's image on an old dollar bill. Tintypes if done well, had no grain, so they can be enlarged with clarity. Trouble is many are out of focus. The lens was huge and the depth of field narrow. Depending on the light/temperature the exposure was about ten seconds, so you seldom see one of these folks smiling. They were told to stare at something...the "birdie"?

Wow! Am I off topic! Sorry, but I was asked a question and I took off with it.

Most of the other pictures are as clear as this one of the kid. Others show the people in the distance or as old men and women. The collection that Sallie Chisum gathered were taken as events were unfolding, and therefore; show the people when they were in fighting trim. Many of them were killed. These pictures breath life into long dead and historically significant people. Giving life to history is the kind of thing that drives historians and fans of old and fine shotguns, wild.

Steve

Bruce Day
10-02-2011, 04:13 PM
I am out in Dodge, have friends there, quite a bit and have posted many pictures of hunting there. You likely grew up there when the sheriff still dressed in black and walked the streets with a pair of Colts.

Doc Van Blaricum is a PGCA member and whose family comes from Mead.

Cal Humburg is a PGCA member from Ness City.

How about a photo of Clay Allison? I am also out in Cimarron NM a lot. A PGCA member owns Frank Springer's 0 grade lifter. That's the Springer of Springer NM and who legend has it hired Billy as an enforcer. You probably know the Springer/Maxwell ranch is still in the Charles and Frank Springer family as the 100,000 acre CS Ranch.

Here is my friend Don Hornung out on drought land south of Ingalls in August.

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 04:52 PM
It's flat out there isn't it.

I used to walk down Front Street in Dodge before they tore it down to build the parking lot for the Front Street Replica. I knew men who had lived in Dodge in the 1870's. They were very old and I was very young, but my dad and his folks knew these people well when they were still spry. They made tapes that turned to mush in their garage. Too bad. These old guys recalled Ed and Bat Masterson, Luke Short and Chalk Beeson, but none of them remembered Doc Holliday or Wyatt Earp. Holliday was only in Dodge for three months and Earp was just a local cop and not well know among the nice folks of town.

You've been to the old Boot Hill Cemetery and museum? It is empty now, its contents being moved to the FS replica down the hill. The old cement cowboy statue that you see there was made by Dr. Oscar H. Simpson, who was a close friend of my grandfather, who was also a pioneer dentist. Doc Simpson was my grandfather's mentor and helped him to get started in practice. Doc Simpson's elder sister, Inez Simpson Chisum was married to Sallie Chisum's brother, Walter Pitzer Chisum. He knew Billy the Kid. Walter and his brother Willi Chisum were married in Dodge in 1887, but at different times. Inez Chisum moved to Troutdale, Oregon in 1919 after Walter died. Her daughter was close to Sallie Chisum. Before Sallie died she gave her collection to Inez's daughter, Ara. Ara showed them to her kids. They were stored away in her attic, forgotten and sold in a yard sale more than a decade after Ara died.

I came along and found the little tinypes. Pretty amazing coinsidence huh? There's more.

I've seen a new picture of Clay Allison. It has just come to light, but I don't have a copy of it. Google him and you'll likely find it. My collection of pictures are of Billy the Kid, his gang and the Chisum family. I have most of those folks.

Steve McCarty
10-02-2011, 05:08 PM
There is a self published book about the ranchers in SE New Mexico and the Springers are mentioned there.

Sallie Chisum's first husband was named William Robert. He divorced Sallie, seperating in 1890. He took 3,000 head of Chisum breed short horned cattle to the XI ranch near Plains, Kansas. He eventually bought the spread. He took the two boys, John and Fred. They attended high school in Hutchinson, Kansas and worked with him on the ranch. Dr. Hinton, a Chisum family expert, told me that he "almost worked those two boys to death".

The XI ranch, which was originally the XIII ranch grew into SW Kansas and into NW Oklahoma. Robert also got into the oil business in Colorado. He remarried. His boys had an off again, on again, relationship. John, the eldest, eventually moved to LA and got into the movie business; never had a hit however. Fred the younger, was a Rough Rider, married and had one son, William Lee Robert(s). Fred stayed in ranching, died in Oklahoma.

I have pictures of all of these people. I even have pictures of William Robert's parents!

Jeff Mayhew
10-02-2011, 11:43 PM
Hey Steve, we're practically neighbors. I live in Portland, but we occasionally visit beautiful central Oregon. I promise to stay away from your Trojan at the pawn shop!

In my humble collection I have a couple of pistols of a type that I understand Billy was quite fond of, the little Colt double-action "Lightning" and "Thunderer" (.38 and .41 caliber, respectively). They are cute as a button, but a nightmare to keep running.

For shooting on the small side I prefer my little Merwin Hulbert DA in .32. Loading BP shells for this little fellow is an exercise in micro-surgery, but it's a lot of fun and surprisingly accurate.

Richard Flanders
10-03-2011, 10:19 AM
So Steve.... about reloading old paper shells. You just need the fiber base wads and card fillers. I think BPI might still sell some of that stuff. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to use a Lee Loader on the old paper shells. You'll need to either find old reloading manuals or cut one open to see what's inside. I used to reload a lot paper shells in the early 60's using a vintage reloading setup. It wasn't that many years ago I tossed all the old base wads and filler cards I had. Wish I still had them because I have a LOT of very nice old once fired paper hulls I'd like to reload. If you want an MEC loader you might haunt gun shows. You can often find the older ones that have all steel fixtures for $20, and all the parts to get them going again are still available, or maybe you buy 2-3 old ones and mix/match parts to get one going. My smoothest MEC of the 5 on my bench... BY FAR is the oldest all steel one. It operates like butter and never ever malfunctions. None of the plastic ones come close to it in smoothness.

Dan Foley
10-04-2011, 04:46 PM
Richard,
I reload almost exclusively paper hulls. However, they can be a bit hard to find. You mention you have "a lot" laying around. What gauges do you currently have paper hulls for? And would you be willing to part with some of them?

Thanks,
Dan

Jeff Mayhew
10-04-2011, 04:53 PM
I went straight to RMC brass, figuring 10 gauge paper hulls are simply unobtainable (loading BP). If that's not the case, would sure like to get my hands on some.

Dan Foley
10-04-2011, 05:22 PM
I am specifically looking for any paper hulls in 16 gauge, 28 gauge and 3" .410 bore. If anybody here can help I would be very grateful.

Rich Anderson
10-04-2011, 08:11 PM
Dan I have hulls in everything from 12 to 410 but they arn't paper. I believe the paper hulls that we were using came from graff & Sons at about .15 cents ea.

John Farrell
10-04-2011, 08:31 PM
Look for the thread posted by Forrest Gilley on this forum and read the comments on his and others' experiences reloading paper hulls. There is a lot of information there. JF

Richard Flanders
10-06-2011, 10:30 AM
There's still quite a lot of vintage 10ga paper ammo out there to buy but Destry has put a serious dent in the national supply.

Rodney Short
11-25-2012, 04:49 PM
i do it the old fashion way, black powder and fiber wads, with a very old roll crimping tool, all my sxs except one are damascus barreled i use both paper and plastic hulls, i also make single ball loads and buckshot loads

Mark Landskov
11-25-2012, 04:58 PM
There are a few enthusiasts that shoot 'vintage' ammunition. They may save the paper hulls.

Rodney Short
11-25-2012, 06:47 PM
check out ballistic products, they have all you need for reloading vintage guns, paper hulls, also roll crimper tools, wads, and cards, i get them from the canadian distributer in alberta, bilozir, if any canadian guys are on here, check out bilozir.net, lots of stuff on there, for loading modern and vintage shotguns, prices are very reasonable

but ballistic products is a U.S. based business

Jeff Christie
11-27-2012, 07:01 PM
I was born in Hays ( as I like to say- Fort Hays). I still have the family farm out in Gove county (north of you) that my great-grandmother homesteaded by herself after her husband died. The deed is from the United States to Jane Parsons and dated 1890. It is all sections, townships, ranges, and prime meridians as the counties did not exist at that time. The original house was a 'soddie' a sod house and from what I have been told very livable in both the heat of the summer and the brutal cold of a western Kansas winter. I understand Gove County is now great pheasant country. I have not hunted it since the early 70's. When I was a kid it was also rattlesnake heaven out there.

Steve McCarty
11-27-2012, 07:48 PM
I was born in Hays ( as I like to say- Fort Hays). I still have the family farm out in Gove county (north of you) that my great-grandmother homesteaded by herself after her husband died. The deed is from the United States to Jane Parsons and dated 1890. It is all sections, townships, ranges, and prime meridians as the counties did not exist at that time. The original house was a 'soddie' a sod house and from what I have been told very livable in both the heat of the summer and the brutal cold of a western Kansas winter. I understand Gove County is now great pheasant country. I have not hunted it since the early 70's. When I was a kid it was also rattlesnake heaven out there.

I visited Fort Hays in the spring of 2010. My grandparents always called it Fort Hays too....and sometimes Hays City. I had never been to the old fort before and I wanted to check it out. Some original buildings there. Custer was stationed there for a while. He camped about a mile away from the post along with his wife and brother.

I have sold all of the property that I inherited around Bucklin. Sorta wish I hadn't because I'd allow it to go back and maybe raise some pheasants. I owned about 200 acres, but not all in one piece. Relatives wanted to buy it, so I sold it to them. They live out there and wanted the land to make a living off of.

Can't find my pics of Fort Hays. Gotta be around here somewhere.

Jeff Christie
11-27-2012, 09:15 PM
I sorta did that. I bought all the rest of the family out as I did not want to see the land get away. Impossible to get back once it is gone. I may someday see if the state is interested in it for Public Hunting. The first time the farmer says he is no longer interested in farming it I am seriously thinking about letting it return to natural cover.

Steve McCarty
11-28-2012, 03:19 PM
I sorta did that. I bought all the rest of the family out as I did not want to see the land get away. Impossible to get back once it is gone. I may someday see if the state is interested in it for Public Hunting. The first time the farmer says he is no longer interested in farming it I am seriously thinking about letting it return to natural cover.

My grandfather had a nice piece about 20 miles south of Bucklin. He farmed about half of it and left the rest as is. There was a little draw that ran through it and water ran a bit. There was an dead cottonwood and you could see where there had been a soddy. A dimple in the hillside, a few smashed soldered tin cans, some square nails, a battered oil lamp. Ernie, my grandfather, said he knew the people who had lived there. My great grandmother, Eva, also lived in a soddy and she wasn't nostalgic about it one bit. She was born in 1887. Living in a soddy on that cold, wind blown prairie was not a piece of cake. They made them as cozy as they could. White washed walls and a window or two, life was hard. Eva said it drove her husband into an early grave. She lived to be four months shy of 100 in a little house on the north edge of town and raised chickens and had an egg route until a year or two before she died. Boy could she bake!

South Western Kansas was Indian Country, and in the 60's and 70's they were none too friendly. A hundred would pop up as if from no where. When you scanned the country, flat as a pancake, you wouldn't see a thing, but a slew of Indians could be hunkered down in a draw just 50 yrds away.

Lots of western Kansas towns are dead or dieing. Little Bucklin, a burg of about 700 is still hanging in there. They have the school. Kids from Ford and Fowler go to school in Bucklin. The place seems to be caught in a time warp. Little has changed since I lived there in the 50s and early 60s. Hays had a bit of a rennaisance, but I think it has died down again. Greensburg might as well be dead...it blew away like Dorothy's cabin in The Wiz of Oz.

Paul Harm
12-01-2012, 02:23 PM
Precision Reloading has the best roll crimping tools at a better price than Ballistic Products. I believe BP's gets their wads from Circle fly so you may be able to save a buck or two going with CF. If roll crimping shells that have been star crimped you'll need to cut off the star crimp end to get a nice roll crimp. That'll put you at around 2 1/2" shell. In 12ga or smaller you'll want to go to fiber wads so everything will fit in the shell. Or, as I have sometimes done is use like a 1 3/8oz plastic wad [ which is shorter ] with 1oz of shot. Precision Reloading will also work with you for Mec parts cheaper than what Mec will sell them for. About the only thing I buy from BP is the new 10ga plastic hulls. Good luck.

timcornish
12-25-2012, 05:38 PM
I use Federal paper, BPI has them and I scrounged about 500 the other day at my local gun dealers. I have a special mec crimp starter made for paper and the crimps look new with this device (I think I got it from BPI or maybe Mec. Steve, get a Mec! I have both but have had Mecs since 1964 and the extra is well worth it. The Lees are fine but if you start relaoding much at all you will end up with a Mec sooner or later.