crack in stock head

[bruce willis]

hello, this is bruce willis again with another question. I was dove hunting with my 1906 VH 12 gauge and noticed that while looking down at the top lever/stock head the stock wood is above the level of the receiver "proud" on the sides of the receiver. Maybe a 1/16 inch or so. Enough to notice. The stock is origional and in good condition. I shoot standard 2 3/4 inch 3 dram winchester AA trap loads for upland, remington 2 3/4 inch express 1 1/4 oz #6 loads for pheasant, and 2 3/4 inch #5 1 1/16 oz tungstin matrix loads for duck. There is no stock play, and no cracks. I know with out good pictures, or actually looking at the gun it hard to tell what is going on. does anyone know of a really good stock man in northern california who could check this. the gun is in excellent condition, and I do not want someone to butcher it. I have had Del grego do some work, and was the best, but I really do not want to ship the gun for this. I contacted dale tate, but he said he is not doing gun repair at this time. I used great american gunstocks once, but they burned down, but now in business again. But they are not parker specialists. thanks for your help BW.

[Bruce Day]

That's the way they were made. Don't sand it down, don't mess with it. Original, unaltered Parker wood is proud of the metal for allowance for refinishing and hand wear.

We have a few members in NorCal, listed in the PGCA roster, who know their Parkers. Get in touch with some of them if you have concerns about the gun otherwise. Sounds like a nice Parker to me.

[brian randolph]

Dale recently did a stock fitting/bending on my VH. If you find a Norcal stock man, please post the info. I'd like to know myself.

[Jim Williams]

I don't know about this one...Bruce is quite right about original Parker wood being a little proud of the metal, but 1/16 in. is HUGE, and certainly not within limits of anything I've ever seen. Either the estimate/measurement is off, or there's something wrong. If it is measured to be truly 1/16th proud, I'd remove the stock and look to see if the head is split. As noted, some good pics would be a simple way to determine if it is normal.

Jim

[Bruce Day]

If it was really 1/16" on both sides, there would be 1/8" separation somewhere and the frame would be wobbling on the stock and cracks would be noticeable. I assumed his measurement guess was off. The most common crack is longitudinally from the rear of the top tang and a person can't help but notice that. I think he is just looking at normal Parker proud wood. Of course photos would tell the tale and are easy to post.

[bruce willis]

This is Bruce Willis again. you guys are right about the stock being "proud" on the receiver. It must be less than what I estimated, but it still concerns me. I guess it will be all right. The gun is a #2 frame with 30 inch barrels so it should be heavy enough the use the loads I listed in my first post. But if it has a small crack I can not see I would like to repair it before it could get worse. I need to have one of my family members help me post some pictures of the gun. The stock does not appear to be oil soaked, but does have some oil soaking after a 103 years! I believe I saw a post by Mr. Destry Hawford of a parker stock that had a crack or split, or something and had a staple for a repair? Sorry I sound so ignorant on these matters, but i'm new to this and I am a user more than collector of these fine guns. My guns are working guns that I hunt with, well taken care of, but not pure collectors. This whole subject is very interesting. I just wish here in northern california we had as much stockers, and fine gunsmiths that seem to be more on the east coast. One more comment. I have shot the RST light loads, but I still like my winchester AA trap loads even though they are harder on the gun. Again thanks for the replys. I am still looking for a good stock man I can trust with my VH.

[Dave Suponski]

Bruce,Dennis Smith has done great work for me. He is in Oregon. thestockdr@riflemag.com

[Bruce Day]

This is the normal wood to metal fit. The wood is slightly proud of the metal. If you have much more than that, you likely have a cracked stock head or the wood is swelled from oil soaking. The stock will need to come off the frame and be examined.

[Francis Morin]

Bruce- I wish you lived here in MI- My friend, master gunsmith and PGCA member, Brad Bachelder is a master at stock repair. I agree with Bruce Day that there is a possibility of internal swelling at the head where the wood joins the receiver. I had Brad do a 12 gauge "Project Parker" for me, an older GHE with after market ejectors, matching forearm, barrels from a No. 2 frame VHE and a PHE pg buttstock that had the same crack at the rear of the top tang, as Bruce Day mentioned-

Brad took me through the steps involved, and I saw the stock "before and after" and he used Acra-Glas and a reinforcement pin, but inside, not visible on the surface anywhere- strong as Hercules, you have to use a magnifier to see the crack at all, and the wood is maybe 1/64" "proud" to the receiver now-

As to your loads, yes I No. 2 frame 12 Parker can handle those loads you mentioned, so can the 12 gauge R or Std. frame LC Smiths I also shoot, BUT-I'm getting older, so are the shotguns I enjoy, so I shoot RST 1 oz. light loads mainly- some 1 and 1/8 oz. No. 8 AA Sporting clays for the left barrel- anything heavier afield, I use a Model 12.

I understand your reluctance to ship a Parker or any other gun in today's world- If we go out to Lewiston MT this coming October, as we did 4 years ago, we'll drive a Suburban and the guns go into the motel rooms with us each night out and back.

[bruce willis]

Thanks for all of the responses to my question. I really like this forum, you can get so much information one would normally never get. I looked at the photo that bruce day posted, and it really helped. I looked at the photo and my VH stock is more proud than the one in the photo. I feel I should have it checked to be safe. I am going to call the stock doctor in oregon and see if he can check it. I feel the stock will need to be removed and looked at to determine any damage. While my VH is at the "doctor" I have a beater winchester model 24 16 gauge that I can use. It has 28" barrels, it,s light weight, and shoots great. It is not a parker, but it is a nice gun, although an odd design. I shoot federal 16 gauge high brass 1 1/8 #6s on early season pheasant and its a kick-butt load. I also shoot a 1932 remington model 11 12 gauge with solid rib and nice checkered stock. Its a real nice gun, and I use sometimes for late season pheasants, and ducks here in the sacramento valley in california. I have hunted many sugar beet and corn fields with these guns and my labrador heidi chasing that wiley bird. Thanks again BW.

[Dave Suponski]

Bruce,Just tell Dennis you heard about him on this site...OH Wait! I will tell him myself as he will be at the Vintagers in Maryland this weekend and I will be visiting with him.

[Francis Morin]

Thanks for all of the responses to my question. I really like this forum, you can get so much information one would normally never get. I looked at the photo that bruce day posted, and it really helped. I looked at the photo and my VH stock is more proud than the one in the photo. I feel I should have it checked to be safe. I am going to call the stock doctor in oregon and see if he can check it. I feel the stock will need to be removed and looked at to determine any damage. While my VH is at the "doctor" I have a beater winchester model 24 16 gauge that I can use. It has 28" barrels, it,s light weight, and shoots great. It is not a parker, but it is a nice gun, although an odd design. I shoot federal 16 gauge high brass 1 1/8 #6s on early season pheasant and its a kick-butt load. I also shoot a 1932 remington model 11 12 gauge with solid rib and nice checkered stock. Its a real nice gun, and I use sometimes for late season pheasants, and ducks here in the sacramento valley in california. I have hunted many sugar beet and corn fields with these guns and my labrador heidi chasing that wiley bird. Thanks again BW. My old High School pal had a M24 Winchester 20 gauge with 28" barrels- a very solid and good shooting gun indeed. Later one he traded it (and some cash) for a Browning 20 Over/Under- and after a year of shooting it afield, tried to get his M24 back. The Rem 11- like the old Browning A-5 will always have a following, just like the Models 1897 and 1912-later M12 Winchesters do-sounds like you get some good hunting in out there in CA, best of luck this Fall and keep us posted on that nice VH you have!!:cool:

[Brad Bachelder]

Hello all, yes I am still new to responding to threads, so if I make mistakes, bear with me. In the last thirty years I have had the chance to observe many, many cracks in stocks. I would feel confident in saying that at least one in three double stocks have head cracks, not just Parkers, but all makes.
The problem is two fold. the stock design incorporates many function necessary inlettings . These inlettings serve to weaken the longitudinal integrity of the wood. The bigger problem is the fact that early lubricants were animal based. Lard was the lube of choice for the Romans. For many decades, lubricants were organically based. The affect that these lubes had on the wood, were not considered by the design engineers. Animal based lubes contain fatty acids, these acids attack the wood. They compress the cells and basically rot. This causes shrinkage and discoloration. Thus the dark coloration where wood meets metal. As the wood softens with the absorbtion of oil, it becomes weaker and eventually yields to recoil, resulting in a split.
I have witnessed many different forms of repair attempts, most of which, compromise the integrity and appearance of the stock.
The only way to effectively repair a stock is to fully remove the offending oil,grease and fatty acids. Doing so allows you to utilize any of the modern,effective epoxies to bond the wood. Once repaired it should be stronger than the original configuration. With a little creative staining, the repair becomes invisible. The wood is proud on parkers as noted. I feel that this tolerance is more to avoid chipping than a consideration for rework. If you look closely, all wood to metal contact surfaces, have a slight inward bevel, to allow for compression.
There is no home process to acomplish this task. It needs to be done by a restoration specialist . I am sure that with some research, you can find someone that can do this for you. Anything else is nothing more than a quick fix.

[Bruce Day]

Soak in acetone until all the gunk is gone, then Superglue the interior surfaces. The older epoxies added thickness to already tight fits within the head.

[Francis Morin]

Soak in acetone until all the gunk is gone, then Superglue the interior surfaces. The older epoxies added thickness to already tight fits within the head. Bruce- I have a chance to buy a 12 Trojan project gun- the stock head has been pinned, the LOP with a crappy old Red head pad is 13.5""- all that is fixable as a project- BUT- the previous owned superglued or epoxied the trigger guard bow into the stock channel, it's in their tighter than Dick's Hatband- you can even see the "gunk" on each edge of the guard bow "tail section"-- would acetone remove that and allow me to remove the guard bow- the front of same partially covers the rearmost of the three trigger plate screws--Thanks!!:rolleyes:

[Bruce Day]

Francis, I don't know what is the solvent for the isocyanite (Superglue) glues. You'll need to research that on your own or call the manufacturer.
In view of the recent news concerning an unfortunate fellow whose several girlfriends took out their vengance on him with Superglue, I trust there is a solvent.

[Jim Williams]

"Debonder" available for CA glues is typically acetone-based. It takes a while for it to soften though. We used to keep the detachable applicator tips for our CA bottles in a jar of acetone so they were always clog-free.

However, you mentioned "superglued or epoxied." If it's epoxy, I don't think anything but heat will soften it. A heat gun or possibly hot oil as applied in a stock bending procedure would do it. When it gets hot enough to fail it usually crumbles.