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Theodore LeDurt
08-11-2011, 08:27 PM
In Wisconsin, all dove shooting on public land must use non-tox shot. Trouble is, other than steel, what other non-tox is available in 7 or 8 shot?

Not wanting to take the chokes out of my Parker, I'm loading ITX for waterfowl, but the smallest pellet is #6. When steel shot came into play, it was only mandatory in 12ga. All other gauges were exempt. As manufactures began producing steel shot in all gauges and gun manufacturers began making steel compatible guns, steel shot became mandatory for all.

Now attempts are being made to force all upland shooting, be it for dove or other birds on state land, to use non-tox. The trouble is, upland guns are not necessarily steel shot compatible and as you know, many serious upland shooters have invested a lot of time and money into their classic bird guns.

Perhaps states need to consider the availability of a product before the mandate it. Are there other states experiencing the same push for all non-tox?

charlie cleveland
08-11-2011, 09:28 PM
looks like the do gooders have won another round..hate to see this become law for wisconsin...as you know most dove hunters git about 3 doves to the box including me..its gonna be some pretty pricey shells to shoot doves if we shoot our old model guns...i hope you find a cheap subistute other than lead or steel in the smaller size shot... charlie

Dean Romig
08-11-2011, 11:52 PM
In Wisconsin, all dove shooting on public land must use non-tox shot. Trouble is, other than steel, what other non-tox is available in 7 or 8 shot?

Not wanting to take the chokes out of my Parker, I'm loading ITX for waterfowl, but the smallest pellet is #6. When steel shot came into play, it was only mandatory in 12ga. All other gauges were exempt. As manufactures began producing steel shot in all gauges and gun manufacturers began making steel compatible guns, steel shot became mandatory for all.

Now attempts are being made to force all upland shooting, be it for dove or other birds on state land, to use non-tox. The trouble is, upland guns are not necessarily steel shot compatible and as you know, many serious upland shooters have invested a lot of time and money into their classic bird guns.

Perhaps states need to consider the availability of a product before the mandate it. Are there other states experiencing the same push for all non-tox?


Why would the antis care if we can get ammunition?

Mark Landskov
08-12-2011, 07:57 AM
Minnesota tried it a few years ago. I was sent a survey about it and gave them my opinion, as I am sure all the other people did. Nothing ever became of it, unless it just takes a few years to make these types of laws.

Jack Cronkhite
08-14-2011, 07:12 PM
I wonder how many upland game birds shot using lead would have to be consumed to duplicate this situation. 5 1/2 year old ingests thousands of lead pellets from exercise ankle weights. The situation ended, through medical intervention, without lead poisoning. Good for the doctors and interesting from the science of it all. Very interesting first sentence in the Abstract Background statement. LINK (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10930061)

Rich Anderson
08-14-2011, 07:54 PM
There's an artical in this months Shooting Sportsman (I haven't read it yet) on non-tox ammunition for small bores so I would think that someone would make it in the smaller sizes. have you contacted RST?

Theodore LeDurt
08-14-2011, 10:47 PM
After contacting one of the reloading companies they informed me that no non-tox other than steel was available in anything smaller than #6. Later I did see that RST offers smaller shot, however I usually shoot a case of shells (250 rounds) at doves and the average cost for this is $55. Where steel shot is about the same price as lead in small sizes, no such luck with RST's Nice shot. The same 250 rounds will cost $750! Unless Nice shot is covered under TARP, I can't afford to shoot it.

Jack Cronkhite
08-15-2011, 12:18 AM
More info for those who would ban lead for upland, but of course the science doesn't really matter does it???

Elemental lead and inorganic lead compounds are absorbed through ingestion or inhalation. Pulmonary absorption is efficient, particularly if airborne lead particle diameters are 1 mm generally are completely absorbed by the alveoli. Gastrointestinal absorption of lead is less effective and depends on a number of factors. Lead absorption rates may increase with iron, zinc, and calcium deficiencies. Children are at the highest risk for toxicity because they absorb up to 50% percent of the amount of lead ingested, whereas adults absorb only about 10 to 20% percent. Transdermal absorption is minimal for inorganic lead. reference (http://corrosion-doctors.org/Elements-toxic/References.htm#Inorganic_Lead_Toxicology)

Lead shot of diameter 1mm or less is smaller than #12 shot of 1.3mm. Ammo charts I have seen do not go smaller than #12 and I sure have never seen it used. Upland birds are usually shot with #6 but as large as #4 for heavy late season birds and as small as #7 1/2 for in close birds. Never shot doves but I hear talk of #8 and #9. So any upland shot size is too heavy and large for inhalation. Next is ingestion. Who is going to eat lead shot?? Well, maybe the hunter but the amount would be minimal after proper preparation of the bird and the transition time in the gut is too short to have an impact. So, not much risk to the hunter and no risk to the non-hunting public. Finally, transdermal absorption is not really a factor, even if someone went behind the hunter and made every effort to retrieve by hand every pellet that hit the ground and not the bird. Now that would be beyond the realm of any realistic probability of occurring.

But then none of this matters, because it is the same for migratory birds and clay birds and popping pattern boards. It is all about an emotional response to mis-information or non-information. Next there will be an investigation of tungsten toxicity. Copper is also toxic - there goes the Daisy.

I think I should stop now.

Cheers,
Jack

BTW I have ingested the occasional pellet and for fun I had the doc do a blood test for lead. The doc told me I had no reason for concern. I have eaten a lot of lead shot game from the time I started on solid foods many decades ago.

Kevin McCormack
08-22-2011, 09:47 PM
I have decided to take the "Emperors' New Clothes" approach to non-toxic shot for upland bird hunting where required. This approach is analagous but not exactly similar to that taken by my hard-core waterfowling buddies on MD's Eastern Shore, who 'back in the day' would calculate the then-current fine for baiting ($56.50 c. 1965) against the number of times they could hunt out of a 100-lb. bag of shelled corn until caught and finded by the warden. (Citation fee vs. market price of corn per hundredweight).

My new approach will be to simply stay with lead shot for as many hunts as it takes to get caught and fined, then calculate how many boxes of non-toxic smallbore upland loads I would have been able to purchase for that amount and stayed legal. Innovative, no?

Destry L. Hoffard
08-24-2011, 04:20 PM
Kevin,

I knew I liked you for some reason.


Destry

Fred Preston
08-24-2011, 05:23 PM
Don't they also take your gun, boat and truck these days? Just don't mess with my dog.

Steve McCarty
10-24-2011, 07:53 PM
I knew that as soon as steel shot came into being that the rest would follow. One can never, ever compromise with a liberal. I believe that they want to make it as difficult as possible for shooters and hunters, since they do neither it is no skin off of their noses, and if they can find a way to take our guns, their ammo and close all hunting they will.

Gosh darn those people anyway. (phrasology ammended by author for those with tender ears)

Jack Cronkhite
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
Resurfacing this thread, as NY Times once again publishes how terrible lead is for us hunters.

Citing risks to birds and to human health, roughly 100 environmental groups formally asked the federal Environmental Protection Agency this week to ban or at least impose limits on lead in the manufacturing of bullets and shotgun pellets for hunting or recreation. The use of such ammo by hunters puts about 3,000 tons of lead into the environment annually and causes the death of 20 million birds each year from lead poisoning, said Jeff Miller, a conservation advocate at one of the groups, the Center for Biological Diversity. Consumption of meat from animals that are shot with lead bullets also contributes unacceptable levels of the metal into people’s diets, Mr. Miller said in a phone interview. The ban sought by environmental groups would not apply to ammunition used by law enforcement and the military. In addition to bullets and pellets used in hunting and recreational activity like range shooting, the petition seeks to limit the use of the metal in fishing tackle and weights... (New York Times -- March 15, 2012)

I am now interested to find who counted 20 million lead poisoned birds, or is that bagged birds - probably not as I think the correct term in that case is "acute lead poisoning".


3000 tons of lead is approximately 15 billion #5 lead pellets.

1 oz of #5 shot is 157 pellets SOURCE (http://shotshell.drundel.com/pelletcount.htm)

3000 tons is 3000T x2000 lbs/T = 6000000 pounds which is 6000000 lbs X 16 oz/lb = 96000000 ounces X 157 pellets/oz = 15,072,000,000 That is the equivalent of #5 pellets of lead (sort of an average pellet size, all things considered)

Lets say there is no hunting anywhere but USA

USA land/water area = 3794083 square miles

The annual deposit of pellets is 3972.5 pellets/square mile

One square mile is 27 878 400 square feet.

Anuual deposit of pellets is now .000014 pellets / square foot

So to even find one #5 lead pellet one has to examine 140,000 square feet of land/water or in another measure 3.2 acres

(And hey, I assumed every pellet fell out of the sky and hit ground/water. I'm not going to try to build in a hit the bird ratio - get over it you all missed, well okay I will grant that the honorable souls who got their doubles pins did hit their birds)

So, yeah anyone can play with numbers 3000 tons of lead sounds enormous doesn't it. 1 pellet in 3.2 acres doesn't quite sound the same. And then of course the CDC says lead shot game is not a threat and North Dakota once again invited hunters to donate game meat for the hungry.


Who can end the BS??

It's tired old flawed study (if you can call it that) and it just keeps surfacing. Here is an academic's refutation for those interested in this subject. The oft' quoted study is said to be a fabrication. As the lie circulates more and more, it begins to take on the aura of truth. Not bad for BS.

CLICK (http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=12303) and use as reference for whenever the subject comes up. Print, Pocket and Pull out when needed.

Robin Lewis
03-21-2012, 03:37 PM
Yes, this crap has more traction that I would have ever thought it could have! Just last week there were two talking heads on Fox News, one con and one pro arguing this very topic. I have seen this on the web and have not given it much consideration, other than to think how ridiculous it is but now its discussed on Fox and in the NY Times.

Jack Cronkhite
03-21-2012, 04:27 PM
Let's get them concerned about automotive batteries instead.

Approx 250,000,000 automobiles wander the land of the free. Each one needs a LEAD battery. Let's say 10% need a new battery every year.
Okay, that would be 25,000,000 batteries. Each battery conservatively weighs a whole helluva lot, especially trying to carry one to your dead car at minus 40 degrees.

Here's a bit of info on the amount of lead from automotive batteries, including an estimate of what hits the trash and is not recycled CLICK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery#Environmental_concerns)

So, just a minute here. 3,000 Tons of huntin' lead but 44,000 Tons of battery lead into the environment (ie not recycled). I'm almost willing to bet those folks making their pitch to the EPA drove or were driven in an automobile to make the presentation. But..... but.......... ah forget it.

Ever wonder how many folks ACTUALLY die from lead poisoning?

Abstract

This study was conducted to describe trends in US lead poisoning-related deaths between 1979 and 1998. The predictive value of relevant ICD-9 codes was also evaluated. Multiple cause-of-death files were searched for records containing relevant ICD-9 codes, and underlying causes and demographic characteristics were assessed. For 1979-1988, death certificates were reviewed; lead source information was abstracted and accuracy of coding was determined. An estimated 200 lead poisoning-related deaths occurred from 1979 to 1998. Most were among males (74%), Blacks (67%), adults of age >/=45 years (76%), and Southerners (70%). The death rate was significantly lower in more recent years. An alcohol-related code was a contributing cause for 28% of adults. Only three of nine ICD-9 codes for lead poisoning were highly predictive of lead poisoning-related deaths. In conclusion, lead poisoning-related death rates have dropped dramatically since earlier decades and are continuing to decline. However, the findings imply that moonshine ingestion remains a source of high-dose lead exposure in adults.SOURCE (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12584008)

Whoa...... just a minute Moonshine and southerners?????? Say it isn't so.

Anyway, if it really is 200/year that is the equivalent of about 7 days worth of drunk drivers predation.
Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 48 minutes.SOURCE (http://www.cdc.gov/MotorVehicleSafety/Impaired_Driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html)

There's so much to be worried about. I'll quit using lead sinkers for the sake of the fish that always get away with them. I'll quit driving a motor vehicle. That will make it easy to quit using lead shot for pheasants but I still might try to walk to my favorite haunts and try the old salt on the rooster's tail trick to get me a few. And those, I'll eat raw so as not to add smoke to the environment.

Or.............I just realized the inate wisdom of http://s4.hubimg.com/u/3701883_f260.jpg "What, me worry"

Okay, I quit. CHARLIE and KYRA are after me for a hike in the country. I know I will drive. Dang, as much as I try to be a good citizen of this planet, I continue to fail.

John Dallas
03-21-2012, 05:06 PM
Remember, the original justification for non-tox was lead ingestion by waterfowl, and the resulting deaths which resulted in areas like public lands which had a lot of lead in the marsh. Had NOTHING to do with human consumption of lead. Disappointing how this has morphed into a discussion about human consumption. Stay ever viglilant!! :cuss:

Destry L. Hoffard
03-21-2012, 06:45 PM
Prepare yourself boys, this will happen in the next 10 years. Anybody want to bet a case of whiskey it doesn't?

DLH

Jack Cronkhite
03-21-2012, 09:26 PM
You're probably right Destry.

Here's a link on the subject

CLICK (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/etc.5620150103/abstract?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+b e+disrupted+24+March+from+10-14+GMT+%2806-10+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance)

Pretty sure this sentence will get lost by 2022.

Although this ecological risk assessment does not clearly define a significant risk of lead shot exposure to upland game birds, this issue merits continued scrutiny to protect our upland game bird and raptor resources.

Is that case of whiskey 6 or 12 bottles?

Daryl Corona
03-21-2012, 11:05 PM
My gun club is located in the watershed for the water supply for the Baltimore Metro region. Bill Murphy is familiar with the property. We lease the property from the city of Baltimore. The fields border Loch Raven resevoir which is the impoundment of gadzillions of gallons of water for distribution to the aforementioned areas. We deposit tons of lead pellets into this environment and have it regularly mined and then have the water table environmentally tested for any leaching of good old Pb. Guess what? Club has been in existence since the early 1950's and they have yet to find any problem with Pb in the environment. Nothing, nada, nyet. Someone tell these Einsteins that Pb is inert- much like their brains and common sense. I own rental properties and have to have them tested for lead paint. Why, you ask? Because they the pinheads in the Govt. are worried that some little crumb cruncher will eat flaky paint chips and develop brain damage. I don't know about you but one of my favorite snacks when I was a kid after we ran out of Twinkies was to eat paint chips. You know, you really can't make this crap up. Kevin , I'm right there with you.

Jack Cronkhite
03-21-2012, 11:38 PM
Lead was banned from use in paint since 1978. Has it been banned from Twinkies too?? They too are inert, right? I don't think a Twinkie would get flaky, so youngsters should not be at risk. I think you might be able to eat a Twinkie from 1978 with no ill effects. Probably still be moist. Do we really know what's in a Twinkie? Maybe they should be banned in case a ruffie should ingest a crumb of one and then be eaten by a large raptor. Could one get a government grant to study this further in order to protect our upland game bird and raptor resources? Can't be too careful when it comes to the risk posed by Twinkies.

Steve McCarty
03-22-2012, 02:21 AM
Hum; I think they have stopped making Twinkies. Was there lead shot in them? Or am I missing something?

Steve McCarty
03-22-2012, 02:24 AM
Back to my original question. Is it a fact that we've got more and healthier ducks because we are no longer shooting at them with lead shot? Or is it a Liberal conspiracy to blow the choke out of my old Browning Superposed?

Jack Cronkhite
03-22-2012, 10:46 AM
Twinkies are still with us. At least the three cases I rescued from the clays shed at ol' Tom's place back in 1962. Some fool thought they might make great sport due to an erratic flight path when launched from the thrower. That was really bad news. Not only was there lead down range but that sweet creamy filling was splaterred and crumbs were everywhere. Someone said they saw some doves come in and get all wobbly on the ground. They got so stupid, they could be picked up by the dozens. When cooked they had the most interesting flavour of any dove ever eaten. True, their gizzards were filled with lead shot and some congealed unidentified off-white matter that scientists concluded was the nastiest form of advanced lead poisoning ever seen. Hell, we all knew it was how Twinkies looked after a good gizzard grinding. Now I still have a half case of that particular supply of Twinkies and have been rationing them out slowly. I know one day they will be gone. I have noticed the last couple seem to have dried out just a bit. Probably become hard as a rock one day (sour grapes due to diminishing supply). A sad day indeed that will be. Vintage Twinkies and vintage paper hull shot shells - what a delerious delight for any day afield. For more on the amazing Twinkie, click HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie).

Oh and hey you varmint shooters best start paying attention. Did you know you and your .22 are now on the hit list?? CLICK (http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/0022-541X%282006%2970%5B295%3ACOSRGS%5D2.0.CO%3B2?journ alCode=wild). And you thought your 50,000 rounds of ammo would be good for the rest of your life and maybe some could be used by the next generation. Never mind this sentence non-chalantly tucked into the study of the hazards posed by shot gophers.
Based on the average amount of lead in carcasses, and assuming that uptake of lead from the carcass is as high as that of eroded lead, we suggest that hawks would have to eat roughly 6.5 carcasses, taking an average of 23 days of feeding on an uninterrupted supply of shot carcasses, to attain a lethal dose of lead. Now couple that with this
Uncertainties remain, but shot RGS carcasses appear to be an appreciable source of lead that could prove fatal to scavenging hawks.

This study will be touted as definitive proof that those nuts who shoot gophers are causing the population of scavenging raptors to reach such low numbers that extermination is almost assured. That .22 could become a wall hanger for your grandkids. "It's okay son, grandpa just didn't know".

Will keep digging to find definitive proof that migratory populations are now much better off than before. Now where the heck is that spade.

Steve McCarty
03-22-2012, 01:28 PM
I read that the windmills that the feds have constructed in just one herd of windmills kills 79 Golden Eagles annually. No joke, real numbers. How many of those Goldens' had eaten a .22 killed Jack Rabbit is unknown. If asked Obama's boys would probably say all of them.

I love wild birds. Liberals and Democrats apparently prefer windmills. Like most things that come from the clowns in DC the windmills are a travesty.

Jack Cronkhite
03-22-2012, 03:38 PM
Wind turbines may kill 33,000 birds per year, and, as in the case of electrocutions, these birds tend to be large and scarce (e.g. raptors).
See HERE (http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/) for info about causes of bird deaths. Of interest, we hunters do kill a lot but it is said to be more than offset by our conservation efforts and by the managed manner in which birds are harvested. That actually helps the populations. I wonder who wrote that. Must have slipped by the editors.

And, as we know, loss of habitat is the number one problem.

John Dallas
03-22-2012, 03:59 PM
As I have prattled on before, we all would have been better (us and the waterfowl) if there was a tax put on lead waterfowl shells, and the revenue generated was invested in habitat purchase and restoration. Much too logical. Would never have a chance of getting thru the bureaucracy.

Daryl Corona
03-22-2012, 10:37 PM
Can't say if the ducks are healthier today than they were but I can certainly assure you the numbers are'nt what they were back in the late 70's to mid 80's. I don't care what DU or the USFWS show on their surveys. Steel cripples, lead kills and a good dog will retrieve your birds with no carcasses left for the scavengers or raptors to get sick and die from. A good dog is just as important as the proper load and choke in your gun. Don't leave home without 'em.

Bob Roberts
03-23-2012, 11:14 AM
I don’t know about you guys, but years ago I quit eating Bald Eagles because I was worried about the lead sinkers in the fish they were eating!

Steve McCarty
03-23-2012, 05:45 PM
Is it true, then, that no one really knows for sure if all of the steel shot BS is helpful to the birds?

Daryl Corona
03-23-2012, 10:33 PM
That seems to be the case.

Jack Cronkhite
03-29-2012, 02:21 AM
I don’t know about you guys, but years ago I quit eating Bald Eagles because I was worried about the lead sinkers in the fish they were eating!

Needed a chuckle today. This was it :)

Gary Carmichael Sr
03-29-2012, 11:15 PM
I think that most of our elected officials have lead poisoning, but this is directly related to the amount of lead in their ass. If they would get off their buts and do what they were sent to D.C. for we would be a lot better off!