Cowboy BP 8 & 10 loads

[Ron Mueller]

I'm bringing this over from my other thread to gain insight from you 'old hands' to see if I've crossed the line into the 'unethical.' Some previous threads noting the old books show an 8 shouldn't be fed more than 4 1/2 drams of BP. As you see, I run on FPS since I don't have any type of pressure instrument available. I've also seen some remarks about Laminated Steel being the weakest offered by Parker (that's what the 8 is noted by 'Letter'). Thus far, I'm still here to write of these issues.

"The 10 is 1 3/8 square, Federal hull, 1 fiber wad plus the overs and unders, roll crimped. Gives me about 93 grains by weight of 2F Goex.
That's about 3 1/2 drams if I figure it right.

The 8 is 1 5/8 square, Remington industrial, 1 1/2 fiber plus overs and unders. 'Tis a heavy hull, slight roll crimp, wouldn't dare try a star crimp. Gives me about 112 grains by weight of 2F Goex. So its not quite the ground shaker you and my fellow club members imagined. My math figures I could add another 50 grs. to be exciting!! I'm using 7.5's, SASS allows #4's right!!

Chrono'd both, and they are running 1080 FPS. The 8 being a 7 frame, has a side wall thickness of .277. Me thinks that would handle a mild load. No doubt Brad will give me insight. The 10 bores are so clean on a 3 frame (no pitting) I ran with that too. I have lots of room to add powder and shot!! In the Forum info, I should maybe look into patterns and the like. The Full chokes, may be stripping off the wads to avoid any holes."

Thanks for your responses,
DD

[Milton Starr]

What is the outside diameter 8 ga shell? A friend named Ed hubel designer of the from hell series of cartridges. Said that he bored 10 ga barrels with breech outside diameter of 1.2" to 8 ga industrial and run those modern thin barrels up to 22,000 psi without pressure problems.he said he had or it is possible to build a.monblock for a 10 ga sxs.frame and use non taper straight walled 1.2" 8 gauge barrels and would last forever.running in shotshell psi range. Bit off topic sorry. Lol. I seen that tom armburst experimented with tungsten matrix in the 8 ga with bluedot powder 46 grs I think with 2 1/4 oz at 1250 fps with 10,800 psi. Now I also read of short 8 ga 2 9/16 made by boss thayt could handle only 1 1/2 oz of shot. I talked hellis about the 8 ga they said a square load in the industrial shell would be 2 oz or so they recommend. But from the factory remington loads them with a 3 oz zinc slug. Oh does any one know what psi the factory loaded winchester 8 ga shells run at? I think there probably some crazy.psi sense there milk guns weigh 100 kilos

[Ron Mueller]

Milton,

The Rem's are about .945 on the ring. After that's milled and slipped off, 'tis down to .917 + -, which chambers in the 1883 gun. I won't cross my own line in the sand by using smokeless in one of these old dogs (a compatriot, familiar with BP, loaded smokeless one night and double charged a round and blew up a perfectly good buffalo gun.:shock: Lived (real lucky) to tell about it!!!).
3 oz. zinc?!? Sounds like your speaking of the klinker guns. Found them on line, still made. A single barrel pedestal gun, with shield, fired with a lanyard. I'll stick to shoulder guns.

Thanks for the come back.
Best,
DD

[Forrest Grilley]

Good thread Ron. I've been experimenting with my new 10 ga as well lately. It's a #3 frame D grade hammer gun with .793 bores, choked full and full. I turned out some brass, thin walled 2 7/8" hulls at work, and have been working up some black powder loads for waterfowl. My best loads are 4 1/2 drams of FFFg Goex with 1 1/2 oz of buffered bismuth, in sizes #1 and #4. I use 9 ga. card and felt wads. For #4 shot I load one 1/8" hard card wad, one 3/8" felt wad, and one 1/4" greased felt wad with a overshot card between the greased wad and shot. The over shot card is glued on with Duco cement. With #1 shot I have to replace the one 3/8" felt wad with a 1/4" felt wad to get everything to fit.

With this configuration my right barrel patterns 78% and the left 76% at 40 yards. After reading about Sherman Bell's testing with blackpowder loads I'm taking an educated guess that my velocity is around 1250-1300 fps with these loads. Switching to Swiss instead of Goex powder would increase my velocity and pressure, but may diminish my patterns, more testing is necessary.

Keep experimenting with powder, shot, and wad configurations, one of them with be the "magic" one. Sometimes it seems light loads can be a little more finicky for some reason. It probably has to do with how the added card wads react with the shot column. Best of luck to you.

[Milton Starr]

I just mentioned the 3 oz load because I heard Mr Charlie say he shot them in his parker lifter plus I think that's what the sp8 wax was designed for. Also I found a picture of a greener 8 ga I think its similar to the one tom armburst has. Your lucky you got a 8 ga. I can't seem to find one in my price range . Though I have thought about loading for my 10 ga though I can't find the shot I want.

[Frank Cronin]

Switching to Swiss instead of Goex powder would increase my velocity and pressure, but may diminish my patterns, more testing is necessary.

If all things being equal loading up 4 drams of BP, 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 10 gauge shell, does anyone know how much increase in pressure using Swiss powder compared to Goex?

I use Goex FFg for 10 and 12 gauges. Heard good things about Swiss but the lack of data information of how much change of pressure keeps me from loading them in my old guns.

[Forrest Grilley]

If all things being equal loading up 4 drams of BP, 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 10 gauge shell, does anyone know how much increase in pressure using Swiss powder compared to Goex?

I use Goex FFg for 10 and 12 gauges. Heard good things about Swiss but the lack of data information of how much change of pressure keeps me from loading them in my old guns.

I have a Ferguson breech loading flintlock rifle that I have experimented with Swiss powder. At 100 yards switching from 3F Goex to 3F Swiss will raise the point of impact of the ball by 9 inches. I need to borrow a chronograph to find out what the actual change in velocity is, but just going by trajectory, it is significant. The Ferguson has a small powder chamber (about 60 grains) so pressure concerns are not really a factor in this rifle. I am somewhat hesitant to throw 4 1/2 drams into my 10 ga. without knowing what the exact difference in PSI is.

I have been told several times that sporting powders in the late 19th century were "hotter" than the standard Goex we have today. Swiss powder is supposedly closer to the old Curtis and Harvey sporting powders, but without knowing for sure about pressures I am somewhat hesitant to try it. The Goex performs so well in my gun I don't know if it's worth the trouble (and expense) to play around with Swiss in this specific application. Does anyone know of someone who will pressure test 10 ga. 2 7/8" brass hulled, blackpowder loads using 9 ga wads?

[Ron Mueller]

Thanks all for the reviews,

Had a 4 paragraph response, stopped for coffee and poof, Forum dropped me.

Anyway, Milton, the 8 was a bit more than the $110 in '83. More like, near 5 times the cost of the 10. I've tried to forewarn the heirs. What's a 'milk gun'?

Forrest, your 4 1/2 drams beats my mentor by a whole dram (his are running 1200 FPS) Add Swiss, oh my! Tried Swiss in my 32/20 pistols and I noticed the difference over Goex (a mere 16 grs. by vol.) Greater style points are had by SASS shooters using brass (don't step on the brass as you traverse the stage!).

I'll soon keep the Parkers for something more of their heritage, say trap (no I don't throw them down on the deck in the middle of a timed SASS stage!) Thanks for the thoughts about patterns. Will be important as I invest more in BP trap at our SASS nationals in Phoenix.

Thanks all for the names of those who came before me. More to study, always more to learn.
Best,
Dutch

[charlie cleveland]

the 8 ga is a a very fine gun.. the difference between a 8 and a ten is the same as a 10 to a 12...each gun has its on merits but guns are kinda like cubic inches in engines the more the cubic inches more power can be made...so larger the ga the more powder and shot can be used...but alast guns are like engines they will also blow up...so the need for a good set of strick rules are needed for the loadings of each of our beloved old guns... and yes i have fired 3 ounces of shot through my old parker lifdter gun but not many of them but have shot close to a 1000 rounds now of loads from 1 1/2 ounce to 2 1/2 ounce in the old parker but i used tom arbrust loadings to a tee... the 3 ounce loads came from another shooter of the 19 th century and his gun was a english built greener...i figured the old parker was as good as any greener ever built so i tred the 3 ounce load...its a big load but is a bit rough on the shoulder in the parker at 13 lb but is not bad in the old loomis at 15 lbs...theres one company even now loading the 3 12 inch 10 mag with 3 oz of shot but they have only a muzzle velocity of only around a 1000 fps...but as been said on this forem many times the lighter the powder and load the longer that old shoulder and guns gonna last.... charlie

[Milton Starr]

Charlie I think your talking about Nitro ammo company. They load a 3 oz 10 ga load its a blend of lead and heavishot.I heard it only puts about 150 in a 10" at 40 yards. 3 oz in a 10 ga probably has like a 30-50ft shot string policy

[Frank Cronin]

I have a Ferguson breech loading flintlock rifle that I have experimented with Swiss powder. At 100 yards switching from 3F Goex to 3F Swiss will raise the point of impact of the ball by 9 inches. I need to borrow a chronograph to find out what the actual change in velocity is, but just going by trajectory, it is significant.

9" change in point of impact is pretty significant I'd say too! I'd be curious how much increase in velocity you are getting with Swiss compared to Goex.

I did some searching to no avail regarding pressures but I did find this. To give credit where credit is due, I found it here http://blackpowderblog.blogspot.com/

One thing to bear in mind is that most folks believe that current-day blackpowder, Goex in particular, is significantly weaker than mass-produced blackpowder of the 18th and 19th centuries. this article notes 1250 fps as the velocity of a minie ball fired from a Civil War musket imported from England. If you were to use an equivalent charge of Goex 2F to propel the minie ball, velocity would likely be <1000 fps. The difference in powder strength is attributed to the charcoal used in the manufacture of the powder. Even today, no one disputes that Swiss powder, which is constructed of a different charcoal from Goex, produces higher velocities (and more recoil) on a weight-to-weight basis than Goex. So ... it would seem that there is some basis for the argument that blackpowder was originally stronger than what we have today. but I digress ....

[Forrest Grilley]

9" change in point of impact is pretty significant I'd say too! I'd be curious how much increase in velocity you are getting with Swiss compared to Goex.

I did some searching to no avail regarding pressures but I did find this. To give credit where credit is due, I found it here http://blackpowderblog.blogspot.com/

One thing to bear in mind is that most folks believe that current-day blackpowder, Goex in particular, is significantly weaker than mass-produced blackpowder of the 18th and 19th centuries. this article notes 1250 fps as the velocity of a minie ball fired from a Civil War musket imported from England. If you were to use an equivalent charge of Goex 2F to propel the minie ball, velocity would likely be <1000 fps. The difference in powder strength is attributed to the charcoal used in the manufacture of the powder. Even today, no one disputes that Swiss powder, which is constructed of a different charcoal from Goex, produces higher velocities (and more recoil) on a weight-to-weight basis than Goex. So ... it would seem that there is some basis for the argument that blackpowder was originally stronger than what we have today. but I digress ....

Outstanding find, thank you! That goes right along with what I have been led to believe as well. After learning about the properties of the antique sporting powders, I am much less apprehensive of using the so called "fast" burning 3F Goex. I need to do more experimenting/learning before I take the leap to heavy loads of 3F Swiss, but the results may put my modern 3" duck loads to shame. Which the Goex loads I am already experimenting with are pretty close to doing as it is. My old fashioned blackpowder and card wad 10 ga loads already pattern tighter and more uniformly than any of the bismuth loads I have been able to load up in my Ruger Red Label.

[Paul Harm]

First, everyone I know uses volume, not weight, when measuring Black Powder. Second, going from 2F to 3F will raise pressure and velocity. In my 12ga loads I go from 92grs of 2F to 65grs of 3F - this is with a 12ga smooth bore muzzleloader with a .715 patched round ball and get the same point of impact. With my Parkers and 1oz of shot I use either 92grs of 2F or 75grs of 3F. The 92gr load is only for effect - when I like to surprise other shooters - although I will admitt it kills birds or clay birds quite well. Thirty some years ago I built a 8ga O/U muzzleloader that weighed 15 pounds. I loaded 400grs of 1F and 4oz of shot. It would push me over if I wasn't standing right - but it was death on geese at 60 to 70 yards. In the Lyman BP Handbook [ for muzzleloaders ] they show 102grs 2f and a 1 1/4oz giving a 1200FPS for 12ga. In a different reloading manual for shotshells 1330 FPS for 102grs. In 10ga only 1270 for the same charge. It would appear the 8ga load would be lower yet. Those 8ga's were meant for some heavy loads, and I don't think you're even close. I wouldn't go with the 3F unless you keep the load down from what you'd be useing with 2F. If you're just loading for Cowboy shooting at clays why load a heavy one ? Now hunting - 130 of 2F sounds nice. Happy shooting to ya - Paul

[Frank Cronin]

Now that is impressive! 400 grains with 4 oz of shot!!!!!! :shock:

[charlie cleveland]

do you still shoot the 8 ga paul... 49 grains blue dot and 3 oz has been my top load..it patterned on paper really good... charlie

[Paul Harm]

The gun is gone. I forge knives and did gun shows at one time. I would set the big 8ga on the table to draw in customers. Had a for sale sign on it = thought it was too high but a guy put the money on the table and took the gun. Never said a word - didn't ask any questions. I looked at the wife and said, " I really didn't want to sell that gun ". Oh well.

[charlie cleveland]

have done the same thing with cars...sure would have like to have the old 8 ga and would like to have shot it at least once with that 4 oz load...maybe you will build another one some day... charlie