Just got my first Parker -- help, please

[Vlad Vladykin]

Hello everybody,

I am new to this board, just registered. I have been collecting older guns for quite some time and a nice Parker was always on my wish list, for the time in future, when I can afford it. However, yesterday I walked in a local Pawn shop and walked out with a Parker for $375. I believe it is either PH or GH grade -- I'll look closer on the markings (and post pictures) when I get home. There are hunting scenes engraved, with a hound. Serial number is 71413. Damascus "Twist" barrels with a many light dings on the surface, but just a couple barely noticeable from inside of the barrels. Bores are excellent, shiny, no rust or pitting. Metal is in great shape, I think, with rich brown patina and no pitting. There is a little play in metal parts when closed, not too bad for 120 years old gun.

The problem is the stock. First of all -- it had been cut and fitted with a recoil pad. Oh, well, not a problem really. Second, the gun was used a lot, it seems, and the stock cracked internally. Someone tried to fix it by gluing it together with some carpenter glue (probably in 50s) and when that did not work -- driving a bolt right through it. I was worried that drilling damaged something else -- no, they missed all the important organs, it's the stock only. When I took the bolt out, I immediately noticed the side-by-side play. Then I detached the stock -- the crack runs through half of the length and two pieces of wood are broken off.

Since the stock is original and numbered, I would like to try and salvage it. My plan was to use good epoxy to fix the vertical crack and reattach loose pieces, then to use wooden peg and more epoxy in place of that bolt, and then wood epoxy filler to cover the holes from the bolt on the surface. Then I'll stain the filler to blend in.

Several questions I need your help on:

Is $375 a good deal, considering stock and couple of bolts (see below) are the only problems?

Is this a good plan for the stock restoration, or it'll never work (fall apart the first time I shoot it) and I'm just wasting my time? What will be a better plan, then? Having it restored professionally? Getting a new stock? I'd really hate to do that... Any ideas/experience sharing here will be greatly appreciated.

Any suggestions for surface cleaning? I thought of gently rubbing the barrels and other metal with 0000 steel wool and Barricade rust protection solution to bring out the metal a bit and to get rid of dirt and light surface rust. It might take off some patina, though. Any better ideas?

As far as shooting Damascus, shall I be concerned about the gun blowing up? Gunsmith in a local store told me I should get a $100 diagnostics they run on the barrels (something that analyzes barrel's metal integrity and involves electricity and metal powder) before I shoot any Damascus gun, or -- be prepared (Gloves/mask)... Shall I use only black powder or are there some light loads that can be used in these guns?

And the last one -- where can I order replacement bolts for the sear plate? Two front ones are damaged with the wrong size screwdriver and the one near the guard has the head completely stripped -- I had to drill. Another bolt that was broken and had to be drilled out is the one that goes through the stock on the very back, the end of which is visible just behind the safety switch. Need replacement as well.

Sorry for the long message. I'll post some pictures when I get home.

Thanks in advance.

Vlad

[John Dunkle]

Hi Vlad.!

First - WELCOME!!

Great first post and I'm sure someone will step up to offer advice, or where you can get your parts or.. Well ;)

Anyway - can you please PM me so I can get your Login/screen name set? I think you missed this:
You MUST use your REAL FIRST and LAST NAME as your login name.

Looking forward to both your pictures and your PM!

Best to you!

John

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thanks, John.

PM sent.

Vlad

[John Dunkle]

Vlad - you are all set my friend! THANK YOU!!!!

Best to you!

John

[Gregory Miller]

Galazan in CT at CSMC has full sets of screws for a Parker for around $40. That is the good news. The bad news is that they need to be fitted, which includes turning/grinding down the dimensions. Unless you are a machinist, a job for a good gunsmith. And, dissassembly is somewhat complex. I believe the screws were left over from the Parker Reproduction guns and they are in the white and oversized. Your screws are also probably engraved, so you will need to have an engraver do the screw heads if you want it to match. Likely to cost about what you paid for the gun, but you bought it so cheaply, not the end of the world.

If the gun has dogs on the sideplates, sounds like you have a DH or a CH. If it is a DH you did very well. If you have a CH, hats off to you for the deal of the century. What is the barrel length and is it pistol grip or straight grip. There was a lot of variation but I would expect birds on a GH and a unique pattern on the PH.

A bunch of people who specialize in repairing stocks. I believe I just saw a post on a company called Stockmasters. Many gunsmiths will work on stocks, but this board can help you with people who are good at it.

Post some pictures. Look forward to seeing what you found. Always great to find people who want to restore guns that have been poorly cared for.

PS- The primary source of info is a two volume set called The Parker Story. A bit pricey but a wonderful resource. Historical letters are available through the PGCA site. According to The Parker Story ("TPS") many of the Parker stock makers came from the Carpathian Mountain region.


Welcome.

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thanks, Gregory, for your advise.

Just got home and took some pictures. The model stamped is CH. The barrel is 30". Please see pictures attached.

You can see the stripped screws on the sear plate.

What do you think of the condition? Shall I attempt to clean it? I read in my Blue Book CH is a rare model.

Thanks again.

Vlad

[Mike Wilkerson]

Nice find Vlad! Even with stock issues what a deal. I've always liked the fishtail levers also. Do the numbers match on frame, fore end and barrels?

Mike

[Gregory Miller]

If it is in the serialization book, should answer some questions. My best guess is that it is a GH, where someone upgraded the engraving. Looks like it has a PH base plate.

Cool fishtail toplever. Enjoy.

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thanks, guys, this is great!

So it's not that valuable, I guess. Good, I can shoot it then without guilt.

So, someone upgraded the engraiving and stroke "CH" on the waterplate? Interesting.

To answer Mike -- yes, all the numbers match everywhere, including the stock. I took it apart to clean -- all the main parts are stamped with that serial number, down to pretty tiny ones.

The marking is as follows:

On the waterplate:
Pat'd Jan. 18, Aug. 16, 1887
May 7 - Oct. 8 1889
71413
CH
Mar. 15, 1875

On the down side of the barrels:

A
2 (frame)
71413
413
C
4,5 (weight)
T inside the circle
Pat'd Apr. 12, 1876

That's all that I can see.

Jent pointed out PT/Grade O. What is that, I don't see any info on that in my Blue book.

Also THE BOOK, is that the Parker Story that Gregory talked about?

What about condition, in your opinion?

Ans as far as cleaning/shooting -- any pointers there? Like are twist barrels usually safe to just go and shoot 2" 7/8 ounce loads? Or is this diagnostics really necessary? Any good gunsmiths in Minneapolis, MN area?

I'm getting long again. Sorry.

Vlad

[George Lander]

Vlad: Like Jent said, your gun is listed in the Parker Serialization book at a PT or O Grade gun of 12 bore, 30 inch barrels with a capped pistol grip stock made in 1892. BTW are related to Vlad the Impaler?

Best Regards, George

[Vlad Vladykin]

Yes, George, I am the direct decendant. So, better answer my questions carefully.... Uu-Ha-Ha-Ha [attempt at diabolic laughter].

Is there any way to get value info on PT/grade 0? Blue book does not list that grade.

Also, why is CH striken on the watertable? If it was "upgraded" -- who would care to do that, other then a factory?

I'm going to be done with stock restoration today or tomorrow and was going to take it out to the range next week. Any advise on shooting twist barrels? Shall I be concerned about anything, other then using a light (2", 7/8 oz) loads?

Thanks.

Vlad

[George Lander]

Vlad: I WOULD NOT advise shooting even light smokeless powder loads in that gun until you have it checked over thoroughly by a competent gunsmith. With all that damage to the head of the stock it could come apart in your hands. RST make good low pressure loads suitable for firing in a Damascus barrel gun that is in good condition. As to value, without considering the engraving, an O Grade 12 bore Parker in average condition would go for $400-$800. If it could be established that Parker did the engraving the value would be much higher. As to the question of the grade, I would order a letter from PGCA to learn more about your gun. A letter might tell the story.

Best Regards, George

[Gregory Miller]

For fun see if you can post some better pictures of the engraving.

As to who would stamp an improper grade stamp into a Parker, unfortunately throughout history there have been all sorts of people who dared to do all sorts of really unfortunate things. Including impaling your stock. Sorry about that. :duck: Wasn't Vlad the Impaler from the Carpathian Mountains? As the Parker stock guys largely hailed from the Carpathians, who knows one of his descendants might have worked on your gun.

Looks like you have a great gun to learn on, and when you get done you will have something you can take pride in with pictures of where it started. Anyone can buy a fancy gun in a store. To bring one back takes something extra.

The Fishtails tend to come from that year. Always an interesting option. Be forewarned that Parkers can be addictive.

[Harry Collins]

Vlad,

I shoot my twist steel Parkers all the time. That said, you have received sound advice on having the gun checked out. I have been flying by the seat of my pants. A Parker as old as yours would have been used with mercury primers and they are the cause of pitting in most barrels. If your barrels show no pitting I would be suspect. They could have been "cleaned up" which might have reduced the barrel wall thickness to a dangerous leval. I have not checked the thickness of the barrels on my Parkers and have relied on gut feeling about if they have been "messed with" or not. I have an 1881 lifter Parker with twist barrels that receives loads in the 8,000 psi range at rounds of sporting clays without a hiccup. I have used factory WW Xtra Lite 1 oz loads through it at sporting clays and in the field. Mind you, I prefer to reload in the 5,000 psi range with this twist Parker using IMR 7625.

Good shooting, Harry

[keavin nelson]

Vlad, I would say nice find. I would have a gun smith look at the barrels. I shoot my 16Ga PH, w/damascus barrels, which had a similiar stock through bolt. I would say yours can be fixed. Brownells also sells the screw sets, but they do need turned down. I start with a coffee can of WD40 and put the action in to soak for at least a week, before I touch it. Saves the screws. The bores look good, any pitting?

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thank you, guys, very much for all the comments and advise.

I am posting some more detailed (?) pictures of the engravings. As you can see, I am done restoring the stock. Looks good to me and should hold on the range (fingers crossed). Had to spend some time filing the wood/epoxy for the precise fit. I ended up making the back through-the-stock screw myself : it looks like it was replaced before and the hole was so badly damaged from all the drilling the bits out that I had to re-cut it at 10-32. Then I just got regular flat head bolt, grinded the head to make a close fit and cut it to size. I don't think I could have done better with replacement bolt there: the hole would have been too big for it to grab.

George, Gregory and Harry, THANKS for the pointers, I'll contact Mike for sure for a refferal to a good gunsmith, hopefully, closer then Duluth.

Kevin, thanks for the WD40 advise. I soaked the action for some time in CLP -- seemed to help. The bores are nice and shiny, no pitting.

Next I plan to order the letter and contact a good local gunsmith for an inspection.

By the way, I found couple of sourses for black powder shells online. Ouch, they are expensive! $32 for 25 shots? Any better deals out there?

Thanks again.

Vlad

[Vlad Vladykin]

Here is a couple of "work in progress" pictures. Also, is there any way to illiminate the slight play between the barells and the rest of the gun? It's small, but it's there.

Thanks.

Vlad

[Harry Collins]

Vlad,

Try www.rstshells.com Their shells are pressure friendly to our old Parkers and hit hard. Sherman Bell did a series of articals in Double Gun Journal titled "Finding out for myself". He studied pressure curves of black powder shotgun shells and compared them to modern powders at similar velocities. The short and long of it is pressure curves are identical when using certain powders, primers, wads and hulls. RST makes shotgun shells that duplicate black powder pressures and velocities with smokeless powders.

Harry

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thanks, Harry, I'll cirtainly check them out.

Here are even larger pictures of the engravings.

Thanks.

Vlad

[Don Kaas]

It is almost certainly not factory engraving beyond possibly the borders, floorplate and standing breech etc. which look like factory PH engraving. It appears to be an amatuer's attempt to copy standard DH engraving. The photo's bad but type set on the "CH" on the watertable is larger and in a different style than the factory grade stamp. Below is a factory CH for comparison..

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thank you, Don. The difference is obvious. I'm glad I did not spend that much. Still seems to be a good gun for the money, and a useful exercise: I learned a LOT this past couple of days.

Thanks.

Vlad

[Don Kaas]

The gun is certainly worth what you paid for it even with its issues. Good Luck with it.

[Mike Koranda]

Good afternoon, Mr. Vladykin.
Thank you for your questions about local Parker repair men.
The two that come to mind are Dick Washburn and John Ray.
Dick lives right here in Duluth and John about 30 miles south of Duluth on Interstate 35.
Dick is a very good man to visit with about wood that needs to be repaired.
I am learning from him but your project looks to be out of my area of expertise.
John is an expert on wood and metal of Parkers. Having studied under Geroge Flame, John really knows his stuff.
John currently has the use of my barrel wall thickness gauge. The thickness of your Damascus barrels must be determined before shooting the gun.
John also has a stock duplicating machine and I suspect he has some Parker stocks already in stock. John doesn't do this as a business so I cannot be certain that he would take the project on. The trip to his house would still be worth your while just to learn more about Parkers.
The best man I know in this area for fixing any broken metal parts is Eric Meinzner in Solon Springs, WI.
Once you get eveything checked out, I certainly agree with the posting regarding RST Shells. They have the softest kicking and lowest pressure shells available. And the owners are very nice guys that come from Pennsylvania to hunt grouse with us each fall.
Please feel free to call me at 218-525-5528 or email me directly at
mike.koranda@gmail.com

[Bill Murphy]

Wow! A faked up C Grade. That is something you don't see every day. Thanks for those neat engraving pictures. You seem to be right on track fixing up the stock. When you get everything cleaned up, let us know how bad the breech looseness is and we'll walk you through that. Get the bores measured so you can shoot it without worry. Don't fool with black powder. Load low pressure shells with smokeless or buy RST shells.

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thank you, Mike. I'll call you.

Bill, thanks for the comments. I think I cleaned it up fairly well, short of soaking it in WD40 for a long time. Cleaned internals with CLP, worked the brush, blasted it out with jet gun cleaner/degreaser and lightly lubed with synthetic gun oil. Any other suggestions?

The breech looseness is very slight. The play is both side-to side and up/down, with the thin office paper barely entering the opening between barrels and the rest in extreme positions (am I making sense?). If I hold the stock and try to move the barrels, the tip of the barrels will move maybe a millimeter in every direction. I guess, I'm ready for step-by step...

Thanks again!

Vlad

[Pat Dugan]

Go to your picture 267, that shows the serial number on the receiver. On the front of the receiver there is a rounded area , cut a piece of the thinnest shim material out of the thinest piece of feeler gauge and put over the rounded area and then put the barrels back on . This will end your barrel shake for the cost of the feeler gauge, about $7.00
Every time you take the barrels off, you have to watch out about it falling out.

PDD

[Gregory Miller]

See attached another 1892 PH Fishtail, which must be very close in time to yours. A damascus DH and a damascus GH. All pictures used without permission from posts on this board. To the owners thereof, I defer as to further comments.

[Harry Collins]

This is what Pat was sugesting except I used brass sheeting from the hardware store. you can cut it with scissors.

[Pat Dugan]

What great pictures of how to get rid of barrel shake and the gun will feel as tight as a new one. I have never seen any brass sheeting that was so thin , what is the intended use of that thin brass? I think it will work better than the thin stainless steel because it would bend to shape easier.

PDD

[Jay Gardner]

See attached another 1892 PH Fishtail, which must be very close in time to yours. A damascus DH and a damascus GH. All pictures used without permission from posts on this board. To the owners thereof, I defer as to further comments.

A DH? That's the best looking DH I have ever seen. Looks like a CH to me.

[Vlad Vladykin]

Thanks for the advise -- it worked great! Home Depot does not carry the brass that thin and small -- had to go to a small local store -- got it in their craft supplies section. I do also think it'll work better then stainless: it's not only easier to bend, but any extra wear in the joint would be to that brass spacer, not to the gun. Now the barrels are tight -- almost too tight, as the fishtail lever is pretty tight now also. Should get better, once broken in.

Thanks.

Vlad