Chamber lengths

[Jack Cronkhite]

Hello: Back from extended absence. I see guns offered on various sites and have seen chamber lengths given or not given. I have seen 2 1/2 2 9/16 2 5/8 and 2 3/4. I have yet to see 3 or greater.

Question: Is there a progression over time up to the 2 3/4 that would correlate to serial numbers?

Were all 3 and above by special order?

Thanks for my continuing education.

PS: The "second chance gun -108603" parts soaked in penetrating oil for over two months. The most interesting piece was the forend latch lever and screws. The rust was extensive and for the most part it separated from the lever as a fragile layer as if the metal were a mold. The "rusty lace" disintegrated the instant I handled the bag containing it. No picture of that but it was an intriguing sight.

Jack

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Jack, I believe that guns that were called to be 3" were actually bored 2- 7/8 I know my bhe 20gauge is that way. I do not know if all were bored less. I am sure Bill Murphy would know?

[Dave Noreen]

Generally Parker Bros. had the policy of holding chambers 1/8 inch shorter then the intended shell. Prior to the Great War, American ammo manufacturers offered 12-gauge paper shells in 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3, and 3 1/4 inch lengths; 16-gauge paper shells were offered in 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3-inch lengths; and 20-gauge paper shells were offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3-inch lengths. Chamber lengths may also vary by what the customer asked for. Very likely if the customer asked that his gun be "chambered for 3-inch shells", the chambers would in fact be 2 7/8 inch. If the customer requested that his gun "have 3-inch chambers", very likely that would be what the Brothers P. provided.

My gut feeling is that the great bulk of the Parker 12-gauge doubles we see offered today with chambers longer then 2 5/8 inch were lengthened sometime during their life.

Also, chamber gauges are not all that accurate. If the chamber is slightly undersize in diameter the gauge won't go in all the way to the break for the forcing cone and give a false short reading. If the chamber is a bit oversize, the plug will go in past the break into the forcing cone and give a false long reading.

[Austin W Hogan]

Dave has covered this pretty well. A carefull reading of Winchester Shotguns and Shotshells by Stadt shows that 2 3/4 in shells were labelled "for repeaters" on the box. The loading companies pretty well partitioned shells by high base and low base, with the shorter low base shells intended for older and double guns, through the beginning of WW 2. The idea about long shells in short chambers providing a better seal and better patterns did not surface until 1932, according to an article by Ed Muderlak in PP. There are apparentltly some guns made in the 1930's including M21 that followed this, but the 2 3/4 chamber became standard again after WW2.
Blade gauges may underestimate chamber length. The clearance at the mouth of the case is a major safety factor in the event of case failure.

Best Austin

[Jack Cronkhite]

Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the replies. I also just noted the "Posts" numbers on the "new" site. Seems strange to see some of the prolific writers with such a small number of posts.

I will be getting back to 108603 soon. I was hoping that the "old" site thread would be salvaged and appear with Parker restorations since there were so many pictures involved.

Another note on the "itis". I was warned back when I first tried to come up with a barrel set for the family history VH. I hunted with that for over 30 years and it was the only Parker in the safe. Never did come up with barrels but found a reasonable shooter. That made 2 in the safe. A forum member recalled I was looking for barrels and that is how "second chance gun" came about. That made 3 in the safe. Came up with a pretty nice condition VH, which I picked up a couple weeks ago. That makes 4 in the safe. I know I can quit anytime but.........

Cheers,
Jack

[Don Kaas]

In Winchester/Western put "for repeaters" on SOME boxes of shotshells in an attempt to induce consumers to assume a special suitability for the task and use them in their pumps and autos. I do not recall them stating "for repeaters only". I also do not recall ever seeing a "high brass" box of shotshells from the 1920s onwards the states "Not for use in double barreled guns". So where do we divine the "intention" of the shell companies to segment the market into high brass for repeaters and low brass for doubles? Viewing a couple pages of shotshell ammo in a 1930s Stoeger catalogue would not have lead a Depression era sport to that conclusion. As Dave has often stated, the Fox catalogues long before WW2 state their guns are for use with 2 3/4" ammunition and virtually all Foxes of the era had 2 5/8" chambers (as measured by many, many time...) As anyone who has actually fooled with this subject knows the expanded length of fired pre- WWII paper shells varies considerably (as does that of many modern plastic cases) thus in some case negating the nominal length stated for them. In many case this makes moot the "1/8". difference in chamber size. Also I would not "blame the tool" so much. The Galazan brass blade chamber gauge is pretty darn accurate in my experience and can be relied upon when compared to bore micrometer measurements or go/no go English style chamber sizing plugs checks of the chamber size 95% of the time.

[Gregory Miller]

2 3/4" = 2 12/16ths, less 1/8th (2/16th) would mean that a 2 3/4" inch parker would have have a 2 10/16 chamber? Lots of our guns are 2 9/16ths. Given that the chamber is a slope, seems hard to believe that the 1/16th would be a great challenge. Are there brands of 2 3/4" which are typically safe in 2 9/16th chambers, if we stick to say 2 3/4 drams with 1oz of shot? I know lots of guns are unlikely to fail with much hotter loads per Sherman Bell, but are we wasting a lot of money and going to great trouble to get 2 1/2" shells for our 2 9/16th Inch chamber Parkers.

Obviously, this assumes tha a gunsmith has examined the gun and found it to be in proper and safe condition.

Anyone brave enough to hazard an opinion, or at least experience.

[Jack Cronkhite]

I can't give opinion and the only experience I have that "might" relate is the catastrophic barrel failure on the family VH with Vulcan steel barrels. I say "might" as the barrels had rattled around a car trunk for years, causing some dents. My Dad bought it in 1952 and also reloaded "hot" for those long shots, a probable cause for some barrel bulges. The gun only saw 2 3/4 inch hulls, either Canucks or Imperials when commercial ammo was purchased. I removed all the dents and bulges in the late '70's and I continued to use the gun until 2003 when the barrel blew. I had been using low pressure commercial 2 3/4 shells but I also had a bunch of re-loads from a friend who got out of shooting. I had only used those in a Winchester pump or SKB XL900 auto (my backups). Unfortunately, I had some of those in my jacket and forgot I was not using them in the Parker. Who knows exactly why the barrel blew. I tend to think it was due to the dents/bulges causing a fatigue issue.

I recall another member wrote on the pressures involved and the "slight" increase created by 2 3/4 shells due to the crimp entering the forcing cone when fired. Maybe that could be found on the old site if those threads still exist.

Regards,
Jack

[Kurt Densmore]

Anyone ever measured a 12ga in either hammer or early hammerless with 3" chambers??? I have 5 Parker marked brass hulls, 4 of which were nickel plated and all of them measure out at exactly 3" overall length. I have not seen or heard of any early 12ga guns with 3" chambers. Apparently somone had one made in that configuration. These hulls will not completely chamber in any of my 12ga guns.

I did have a 10ga hammer gun that was ordered with 3" chambers.

Kurt

[Pete Lester]

Generally Parker Bros. had the policy of holding chambers 1/8 inch shorter then the intended shell.

If indeed this was actual policy/practice why did it not extend to the 10ga or did it? The Parker 10 ga guns I am aware of including early guns with square chambers were 2 7/8". Does anyone have a 10ga with with chambers shorter than 2 7/8"? If so it would be interesting to hear the details.

[Austin W Hogan]

Parker ten ga guns in the sub 4000 s/n range have 2 5/8 inch chambers. According to pre 1900 Parker catalogs, the customer could specify the chamber length. According to Winchester and UMC catalogs of the era, the customer could specify the shell length if case lots were purchased.
Best, Austin

[Fred Preston]

Dave, My 10ga lifter, #12465, goes 2&5/8" to the step; no forcing cone.

[Pete Lester]

I guess I should have added to my question(s), when did 2 7/8" shells become "standard" for the 10 bore? What length shell was "standard" before that for the 10? Is there evidence Parker thought shorter chambers made for a better gas seal in 10ga?

[Austin W Hogan]

Pete; I don't think anything was "standard" in the US before the for runner to SAAMI was established in the 1920's. There is no proof law in the US, and arms and ammunition manufacturers established cartridge dimensions independently or in cooperation.

Several years ago, I bought quite literally, a shopping bag full of old loading components. After reading your post today I remeasured some UMC and USCCo No10 primed paper cases which have never been loaded. Both makes measured 2 7/8 inch overall and 2 13/16 inch from case mouth to the radius at the rim of the brass.

This discussion occurs about three times a year. About five years ago , in response to one of these discussions, I did some dumpster diving and brought home one or two each of each color case discarded at the skeet field. I measured these with a machinist scale and found most were 2 5/8 to 2 11/16 inch long. A few were 2 11/16 to 2 3/4 inch, and I did find some that were uneven that exceeded 2 3/4 inch in length.

We ran a query, several times, in Parker Pages, seeking the source of the theory that long shells provided a better gas seal and better patterns, when fired in a chamber of shorter length. Ed Muderlak found the article, and we printed it about a year ago. A well recog nized arms industry employee found that shooting 3 inch 410 shells in 2 1/2 inch chambers tightend the patterns, although more than 1/2 inch was burned off each case fired. It is reported, but not supported , that major arms makers shortened chambers in the 1930's to incorporate this finding. They apparently discontinued the short chamber policy prior to resumption of sporting arms production following WW 2.

This article was published in the early 1930's. Any Parker with s/n less than 236000 was made prior to the circulation of this idea.

I will close with my favorite Parker chamber length story. My second Parker gun was a trap with BTFE. I bought it from a well known and respected dealer who measured the chokes and chamber lengths in my presence before I purchased it. I later measured the chokes and chamber length by several methods for an article in the old PP. The chambers always measured a little more than 2 3/4 inches. I sold the gun a few years ago. The new owner told me that he had a very reputable gunsmith measure the chambers before he used it. The gunsmith measured the chambers at 2 5/8 and lengthened them.

From these experiences, I have concluded that there is no standard shell length or chamber depth. However, if a shell fails or separates when fired, less damage will be done
to a gun with long chambers.

Best, Austin

[E Robert Fabian]

I have had a well known smith tell me I had short chambers when he had lengthened them a couple years earlier for the previous owner.:rolleyes:

[Dave Noreen]

Those specification sheets in The Parker Story on pages 164 to 169 call for a 2 3/4 inch chamber for the 2 7/8 inch Super-Ten shell.

My feeling is that the practice of holding chambers an 1/8 inch shorter then the shell goes a lot earlier then the 1930s. The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues I've found that mention chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914, and they both state that Ansley H. Fox guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells in 12-gauge, 2 9/16 inch shells in 16-gauge and 2 1/2 inch shells in 20-gauge. However, on unmolested guns from throughout the Philadelphia era, the chambers usually measure 2 5/8 in 12-gauge, 2 7/16 in 16-gauge and a hair over 2 3/8 in 20-gauge. I have an AE-Grade 20-gauge from 1920 that states on the order card "chamber for 2 3/4 inch shells" and the chambers are in fact 2 5/8 inch.

[Bill Murphy]

Robert, thirty some years ago, a well known gunsmith billed me for boring a short chambered Parker to 2 3/4". A couple of years ago I measured the chambers and somehow they were back to 2 1/2". I have fired thousands of 2 3/4" shells out of that gun. PM me the name of your gunsmith and I'll reply with the name of mine.

[Pat Dugan]

Asa Kelley and I both had the chambers lengthened on the same gun, a 20 Ga
VH. They must grow as they get older. From all this information, we need to measure them again.

PDD

[Bill Murphy]

All that problem would be solved if no one gave any money to the barrel butchers. I can't think of any reason to fool with the inside of a barrel except to remove rust. "A fool and his money....."

[Pat Dugan]

I wanted to shoot some 28 Ga shells to see if I would like an O frame 28 Ga Parker that a man south of Albany had for sale for $5000 several years ago.
I bought some little skeeters that converted the chambers to 28 Ga. on one of my 20 gauge Parkers. They fit fine and shot fine in one gun and not the other. The chambers were short in the gun they would not fit into. Later I had them lengthened and the recoil seemed to be less. No, I did not buy the gun because I thought why buy a real heavy 28 Ga Parker. Asa Kelley later found me an OO frame 28 which I now shoot. If I had to do it over, No I would not have the chambers lengthened.

PDD

[David Hamilton]

Pete, I have a 10 ga Parker with 2 5/8" chambers. It is an 1875 gun and has the "square" shoulders. I had Rocky Mountain Brass make me the shells for it. I don't know when Parker changed to 2 7/8" chambers but it seems to be shortly after my gun was made. David