New project: Ithaca crass model

[Jeff Bonadurer]

Picked this up the other day. It was on an auction site but the gun was local.
I went and gave it a look over before the auction ended. The barrels aren't too bad, the bores are good with no pitting. I disassembled it this morning and found one broken firing pin. Numrich says they have them. Yay.. Oh and it will also need a buttstock, hence the post on the WTB thread. Fun so far..:)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5156/5802551830_c170da034d_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5802551830/)
crass1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5802551830/) by Bonadurers (http://www.flickr.com/people/46845109@N06/), on Flickr
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3340/5801995639_ee019a11de_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5801995639/)
crass2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5801995639/) by Bonadurers (http://www.flickr.com/people/46845109@N06/), on Flickr
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/5801996487_52870469c6_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5801996487/)
crass3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/5801996487/) by Bonadurers (http://www.flickr.com/people/46845109@N06/), on Flickr

Best regards,

Jeff

[Brent Francis]

I really like the older Ithacas, Ive got a really nice old Lewis model which is nearly identical to the Crass but slightly later. It has steel barrels which I think is unusual. Its in such nice condition I dont shoot it as much as I should. The crass and lewis Ithacas are to me the most graceful and attractive Ithaca shotguns and they are often sold at bargain prices.

[charlie cleveland]

them old ithacas are some prettyguns...always wanted me one of them old 3 1/2 inch 10 ga ithacas my dad had one when i was a boy but it was traded off some where down the line.... charlie

[edward cockrell]

Jeff, i am a new member and need some info if you please. i have a freind that brought in a crass model like you have pictured in a bag. i am putting it back together for him, but i can not figure out where that little bent coil spring is suposed to go. can you help me out? rd cockrell. ekcockrell@bellsouth.net thanks.

[Jeff Bonadurer]

Hi Edward,

Welcome aboard! This site has many wonderful people contributing informative and fun things all the time. I believe I can help you. I took many photos during the disassembly. They are currently on a computer that's disconnected and not in use. I will hook it up, retrieve the photos, resize the ones I think will help you and email them to you. Please give me a couple of days. Thanks for your patience.

Kind regards,

Jeff

[Francis Morin]

Jeff, i am a new member and need some info if you please. i have a freind that brought in a crass model like you have pictured in a bag. i am putting it back together for him, but i can not figure out where that little bent coil spring is suposed to go. can you help me out? rd cockrell. ekcockrell@bellsouth.net thanks.--my first guess might be a barrel trip, needs more details on your gun. The Hammer Ithacas of that era didn't have a trip- which is spring actuated, but the hammerless- in both Twist, Damascus and Nitro steel barreled versions- did- if memory serves..:bigbye:

[edward cockrell]

Hi Edward,

Welcome aboard! This site has many wonderful people contributing informative and fun things all the time. I believe I can help you. I took many photos during the disassembly. They are currently on a computer that's disconnected and not in use. I will hook it up, retrieve the photos, resize the ones I think will help you and email them to you. Please give me a couple of days. Thanks for your patience.

Kind regards,

Jeff

Thanks for the replies. i can't find anything in my books that show a good breakdown on these old fine guns.

[Jeff Bonadurer]

Edward,

Email with photos sent.
Hope it helps.

Best regards,

Jeff

[edward cockrell]

thanks jeff, looks like that spring goes with the barrel latch. those pictures really helped a lot. this is the first site like this i ever tryed too join so it will take me some time to learn my way around it, so excuse me if i don't get things right for a while. i will be checking in from down s.c. way and thanks again for the help.

[edward cockrell]

Francis, thanks for your input also. looks like you were right. ed cockrell.

[Angel Cruz]

What is a crass Ithica. This is a 10 ga with 3 inch chanbers and 28 inch bbls.
The guy says it's a D grade.

[charlie cleveland]

nice old ithaca..i dont know the grade of the gun but i know this much i like it.... charlie

[Rick Losey]

Crass is one of the various models of Ithacas named after the designer until the NID came along.


the Crass followed the Baker and preceeded the Lewis

made from 1892 thru 1903 - serial numbers from about 17235 to 94108

[Angel Cruz]

Thanks Rick!!

[Mike Poindexter]

Angel: Just stumbled across this old thread while looking up Crass model Ithacas on Google. I have Walt Snyder's book and it appears they made both hammer and hammerless guns on the Crass designed frame. The higher serial number hammer guns had 3 screw pins on the side of the frame, as yours does. The older Baker frames had none. From looking at an old Ithaca catalogue from 1888 (reprint) I don't think yours is a Grade D. That was their $100 gun, the next to highest hammer grade at the time, and advertised with "Rolled Gold Triggers, Extra fine Checkering, Extra Fine Finish and Engraving". Based on other Ithacas I have seen, I would bet your gun is a Quality B, which was a $50 dollar gun and comparable in description to a Quality 2 hammerless. The floorplate scroll is very similar to other Quality 2's I have seen. The star engraved on the hinge pin is common on 1 1/2's and Quality 2's as well. Both had Damascus barrels (as opposed to Stub Twist or Condensed Steel on the lower grades) but the 1 1/2 had a black walnut stock, while the 2 was listed with English. That's about all I know, fwiw.

[Angel Cruz]

Thanks for that bit of info Limapapa!! Very interesting.

[Dave Noreen]

In 1887, the year before the Crass Model hammerless Ithaca was introduced, the original Baker Model hammer Ithaca was replaced by the New Ithaca Gun or NIG model hammer gun. The NIG was built concurrantly with the Crass, Lewis, Minier and early Flues Model hammerless guns to 1914. Very briefly in the 1915-16 era they built a hammer version of the Flues hammerless gun, called the Two-Bolt model. The gun pictured is a fairly early NIG in Quality B.

[alcaviglia]

Jeff,

I came across this post looking for the last few steps to complete disassembly of an Ithaca Crass (1901). If you still have the photos/directions handy and can pass them along I would very much appreciate it. Sent PM. Thx.

Al

[Robert Rambler]

On my Crass the bent coil spring goes in the hole on the right side of the top tag. A screw inserts behind it to adjust tension. It acts to take up play in the top lever. Visable in the pic just above the right hammer. HTH.

[Bach Melick]

Jeff,

I came across this post looking for the last few steps to complete disassembly of an Ithaca Crass (1901). If you still have the photos/directions handy and can pass them along I would very much appreciate it. Sent PM. Thx.

Al

Jeff, I am also in need of those same photos to help me reassemble an Ithaca Crass (1897) which I received with many parts in a bag... any chance you could e-mail those to me please? Thanks! tmelick @ yahoo

[alcaviglia]

Bach Melick,

Back in March, when I originally posted the question, Jeff was unable to locate the photos. I have since completed the refinishing and repairs on the shotgun. However, it was returned to its owner and as much as I had wanted to take photos toward putting together an assembly/disassembly guide, I had run too short on time; failing to do so.

So, unless you find someone else with detailed instructions, I am willing to give it a whirl via email. If you would like to, I can PM you with more details.

Coincidentally, I ran into the owner of the Ithaca that I worked on just this morning and found out he is going out of town for a couple of weeks on January 5th. I can ask him if he'd leave the shotgun with me for the two weeks to take photos for you, walking you through what I learned the hard way and some tricks to make it go a bit easier. Though, I can't foresee having a useable guide for you before January 15th. Just another route if time is not an issue.

Either way, good luck and I'm willing to help you as much as I can.

-Al

[Bach Melick]

Al, thank you for the offer of assistance. I would much appreciate anything you could offer, emailed parts description and assembly instruction, or even better yet, pictoral guides. I have absolutely no reference to aid and follow in reassembling this bag of parts I have, and so it could certainly wait until after January 5th, as this project has been sitting around for 3 years now anyway... I'm keeping my fingers crossed that owner may let you borrow his Ithaca Crass for photos to help me...

Many thanks again!

[alcaviglia]

No problem, at all. I'll give him a call tomorrow and see what can be arranged. He was interested in purchasing a decent takedown case for it anyway and wanted my opinion.

I'll keep you posted.

[alcaviglia]

He's fine with it. I'll pick up the shotgun the day after Christmas.

However, I leave the following day and will be out of town until January 6th. But, it should only take a few days after my return to have something together that will help.

I'll see how it goes, but am expecting to either put together a .pdf that I can email to you, or just record the entire process with a video camera and upload/email to you the video. If you have any preference on format, pass it along and perhaps I can accommodate it.

Though I have no idea about how mechanically inclined you are, or how familiar with double guns you may be, I still commend you for your commitment to reassembling the shotgun. Honestly, it is not that difficult. While a soft jawed vice is not a requirement (like it would be on an A.H. Fox - good luck seating those hammers without one), it is certainly helpful. If you have strong hands, you can get by without one.

Happy Holidays to you and yours, and Happy New Year!

-Al

[Bach Melick]

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

A recorded video would probably be most beneficial, and I would gladly pay for any costs of a DVD or thumb drive and shipping costs. Any video format is fine.

I am very mechanically inclined and have owned, collected, competed and tinkered with firearms for the past twenty-five years (although I have never owned a SxS shotgun, especially one as old as this Ithaca Crass), so I shouldn't have any trouble following your instructional guide, preferably a video tutorial.

Many thanks again, Al, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year in the meantime.

- Bach

[Jeff Bonadurer]

Bach,
I found some photos and resized the files. I will email them to you now.

It sounds like Al is all over this. Please count me in on what he puts together.
My photos are a minimal help for assembly at best.
My Ithaca project has been apart for at least two years now awaiting a
replacement buttstock which I have recently found. Time to reassemble.

Best regards,

Jeff

[Bach Melick]

Thank you, Jeff; the photos you sent are definitely a start, and in conjunction with Numrich Gun Parts Corporation (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/IthacaSKB-33316/Shotguns-36647/CrassHammerless-40953.htm), I am slowly able to start figuring out which parts I have and which parts I may potentially be missing...

Once Al furnishes additional information (photos, video and/or written tutorial) after early January 2014, I will begin the process of re-assembling my own Ithaca Crass and intend to document the process to aid others in the future.

Thanks to each of you for the assistance in this collaborative effort.

[Bach Melick]

Happy New Year!

[alcaviglia]

You are more than welcome, Bach and Happy New Year!

UPDATE: I'll be getting into the shotgun this weekend. I should have a complete parts list with photos of each group for you by Saturday evening. Hopefully you aren't missing any parts, but I will provide the critical dimensions of each in the event of having to make any replacements.

A note on NUMRICH: I'm fortunate to live less than an hour long drive from Gun Parts Corp. and have a most active account with them. Their website is quite good, but occasionally a part listed as one thing will differ from what it actually is. Their return policy is very good for this reason. While dimensions will help you in making replacement parts, it will most likely be of no use to Numrich. Their customer service has never included gunsmithing questions, in my experience. Most, if not all, parts that will be listed on the Crass model will be used parts anyway - but if it works, rock on. And, of course, their posted schematic of that model is helpful. I have a box full of Ithaca parts that I have yet to organize. Some, I suspect, are from their hammerless models and may help should you find something is missing.

[Bach Melick]

You are more than welcome, Bach and Happy New Year!

UPDATE: I'll be getting into the shotgun this weekend. I should have a complete parts list with photos of each group for you by Saturday evening. Hopefully you aren't missing any parts, but I will provide the critical dimensions of each in the event of having to make any replacements.

A note on NUMRICH: I'm fortunate to live less than an hour long drive from Gun Parts Corp. and have a most active account with them. Their website is quite good, but occasionally a part listed as one thing will differ from what it actually is. Their return policy is very good for this reason. While dimensions will help you in making replacement parts, it will most likely be of no use to Numrich. Their customer service has never included gunsmithing questions, in my experience. Most, if not all, parts that will be listed on the Crass model will be used parts anyway - but if it works, rock on. And, of course, their posted schematic of that model is helpful. I have a box full of Ithaca parts that I have yet to organize. Some, I suspect, are from their hammerless models and may help should you find something is missing.

Thanks, Al. I know for a fact I am missing a few parts, I just do not yet know enough about this Ithaca Crass to know exactly what I'm missing, so your tutorial and photos will help me initially identify what I still need to buy (hopefully from Numrich/Gun Parts Corp) or have machined somewhere...

When I get back home, I can take photos of what I have, and that would be another way you can hopefully also let me know what I am missing...

[alcaviglia]

Bach and Jeff, I found it a bit difficult to post photos into a thread, so I instead created an album entitled "Ithaca Crass (1901) 12 gauge". All receiver and forend iron parts are accounted for (less a coil spring - I think - that was not there to begin with and I don't feel it is necessary; I'll explain that during reassembly.).

I'll have to put together a list of the names of each part.

@Bach: when you know what parts your shotgun is missing, send me a PM and I can send back that part's critical dimensions, just in case. I won't get calipers/micrometers on them until tomorrow afternoon.

[alcaviglia]

UPDATE: part names are now below each photo with their corresponding number.

[Bach Melick]

Al, thank you so very much for taking the time to disassemble, photograph and catalog those 63 parts comprising the Ithaca Crass shotgun. I've been out of town for the past several days and need to get unpacked and settled in again, so it will take me a day or two to get back to my project... but these photos will definitely be a great start so I can initially identify the parts I do not yet have...

BTW, are there any specialty tools I will need to use to properly reassemble the shotgun?

[alcaviglia]

My pleasure, I had forgotten how many little bits and pieces there are to a legitimate disassembly of that shotgun.

I've gotten through the dimensioning of the pins and screws. Next will be the springs and firing mechanism. Once I'm done with those, I will begin reassembling each section for the tutorial. Most of that is pretty self-explanatory, but I'll go through it in respectable detail, nonetheless.

As for specialty tools, not really. You'll need a couple of punches and turnscrews or old screwdrivers (all flat head - there shouldn't be a Phillips anywhere on this gun) that you wouldn't mind filing/grinding down to fit properly. In that case, you would need a grinder of sorts and/or a file or two. Any type of bench vise will work for the screwdriver "project". I may use some old drivers in the tutorial and just file them down quickly - I've amassed plenty that I can grind away at.

If you don't have a secure vise, a couple of c-clamps to a bench or table will also work to help when seating the hammers. You can do it against your stomach, but it's not very comfortable. As for the punches, you will NEED 1/16" and 5/32". Others will work, but those two are required. And, of course, a hammer of some kind. Anything will do, but around 4 oz. is acceptable. Maybe a piece of hardwood to support certain sections when driving pins (I use 2 pieces of 1x3 maple cut about 6" long that I can stack for two separate heights). A pair of electrical needle nosed pliers (small with smooth jaws) for the trigger spring alignment/tuning and a pair of close in snips if you have to replace the spring - it may need to be trimmed to size so as not to get in the way of the trigger-sear contact.

Off the top of my head, that's all I can think of.

[Bach Melick]

Thanks! I have all the punches (1/16" and 5/32") and flathead screwdrivers and gunsmith hammers (brass, nylon, different sizes & weights) and needle nose pliers and bench vise, so I should be covered on all the tools (except maybe those close-in snips, but I can easily get what I need...).

[Bach Melick]

I finally got a chance to thoroughly go through your photos and compare them to the parts I have. The first thing which stands out is that some of my parts differ, although many are quite similar. Based on the serial number on my Ithaca 12 gauge double barrel side-by-side hammerless shotgun (s/n 22665), I was under the impression I had a Crass made in 1893 (based on THIS LIST (http://www.ithacagun.com/pdfs/serialnumbers.pdf), but now I'm not quite sure, although my parts are identical to the photos I received from Jeff Bonadurer...)

Al, based on the photos in your album, coupled with studying my parts and logically seeing how things fit and function, I was almost able to completely re-assemble my shotgun, although I have not been able (nor have I really tried) to install those two v-shaped mainsprings... I'm sure there must be a trick to properly install those...

I will post photos when I get more time tomorrow, but in the meantime, I have determined I am missing the following parts for my shotgun (I will follow Al's part numbering from his photo album):

(6) Hand Pin - end threaded & tapered (shorter length)

(17) Trigger Spring Pin - full length threads
(18) Trigger Spring - wire
(19) Safety T-Bar (trigger block)
* Note* I am not sure whether I actually need parts (17), (18) and (19), as my safety mechanism is different than what Al showed in his photo album...?

(14) Safety Slide Button Spring

(32) Sear Spring Pin/Hammer Pin
* Note* there should be four (4) total, but I have three (3), plus another similar pin which actually fits but is not the same as the others

(43) Firing Pin Return Spring

(38) Mainspring Strain Pin *Note* mine are both there, but one has a stripped head

(30) Grip Cap *Note* I just cannot figure out whether I am actually missing this parts, as I simply cannot see where it would logically go...?

(48) Trip Spring
(49) Trip Pin

(50) Straddle Block Set Screw *Note* I easily replaced this with a modern 10-32 fine thread set screw from the hardware store

(51)(52)(54) Top Lever Pin - full length threads, Top Lever, Top Lever Cam
*Note* on my shotgun, these 3 parts are all one solid piece...

Additionally, my shotgun was also missing a set screw of some type which retained the ejector underneath both barrels, but again, I easily replaced that missing part with a modern 10-32 fine thread set screw from the hardware store

my shotgun also has a long straight pin which protrudes from the rear of the (53) Locking Bolt Straddle Block, which seems to engage the tip of the (13) Safety Slide...

I'm going to see which of these parts I can order from Numrich Arms - Gun Parts Corp (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/IthacaSKB-33316/Shotguns-36647/CrassHammerless-40953.htm)...

anyway, I will post my photos tomorrow - maybe I can also create a photo album here for reference...

[alcaviglia]

Ah, I feared that we would run into this: yours is a Crass and what I'm using for the tutorial isn't, what I worked on is a Crass and yours isn't, or there exist variations.

Crass Model vs. NIG, perhaps???

I suspect that I am using the same date of manufacture list as you are. I briefly exchanged correspondence with Walt Snyder regarding a factory letter on the shotgun and he did not correct me when I referred to this one as a Crass model (of course, I'm sure we both know what assumption is worth - I never asked him straight away, didn't think to until now). Serial # on this gun is 56889.

I will continue to compile the tutorial, if for no other reason than to finish it.

UPDATE: I scrapped the video idea - too difficult without a second camera and/or an "assistant" to man one of the cameras - it was coming out poorly. Though I did learn about how long-winded I am. I took pictures of every step, save one...timing the locking bolt (I forgot to snap a few while doing that). I'm going back this afternoon to get photos of that operation as the shotgun must be returned to its owner tomorrow evening.

[Bach Melick]

I took pictures of every step, save one...timing the locking bolt (I forgot to snap a few while doing that). I'm going back this afternoon to get photos of that operation as the shotgun must be returned to its owner tomorrow evening.

Thanks, Al, that would help a lot. I think these shotguns are similar enough such that your pictorial tutorial will indeed help me in reassembling mine. On my shotgun, I am missing the (48) Trip Spring and (49) Trip Pin, so I would like to know how these two parts interact together in conjunction with the locking bolt...

Also, my shotgun is also missing the (17) Trigger Spring Pin - full length threads and (18) Trigger Spring - wire; I see on the Numrich - Gun Parts Corp website I can order the Trigger Spring Screw, but they no longer have the Trigger Spring available, so in case I need to recreate that, and if you have not already returned the shotgun to its owner, then would you please take detailed photos (with dimensions, as well as possibly spring rate) so I can maybe get a Trigger Spring made somewhere...

[Bach Melick]

Ah, I feared that we would run into this: yours is a Crass and what I'm using for the tutorial isn't, what I worked on is a Crass and yours isn't, or there exist variations.

Crass Model vs. NIG, perhaps???

I suspect that I am using the same date of manufacture list as you are. I briefly exchanged correspondence with Walt Snyder regarding a factory letter on the shotgun, and he did not correct me when I referred to this one as a Crass model (of course, I'm sure we both know what assumption is worth - I never asked him straight away, didn't think to until now). Serial # on this gun is 56889.

Based again on THIS LIST (http://www.ithacagun.com/pdfs/serialnumbers.pdf), and under the section titled CRASS & NIG MODELS, Ithaca manufactured your s/n 56889 in 1901, right toward the end of that serial number range and before the transition to the LEWIS & NIG MODELS list. So I am going to assume Ithaca changed (improved?) some things along the way and incorporated those design changes into your s/n 56889, which is why some of the parts differ from my own s/n 22665 shotgun...

[alcaviglia]

Based again on THIS LIST (http://www.ithacagun.com/pdfs/serialnumbers.pdf), and under the section titled CRASS & NIG MODELS, Ithaca manufactured your s/n 56889 in 1901, right toward the end of that serial number range and before the transition to the LEWIS & NIG MODELS list. So I am going to assume Ithaca changed (improved?) some things along the way and incorporated those design changes into your s/n 56889, which is why some of the parts differ from my own s/n 22665 shotgun...

I can buy that there were some changes over that time frame. I would have to look at your shotgun to understand if the difference in the safety mechanism is one of those changes, and/or if it has anything to do with yours being an ejector gun. The safety assembly seems to be the most profound difference.

The difference in the top lever/cam assembly only makes sense as an improvement if you break the lever and have to replace it. Then having it affixed to the cam with a pin will come in handy, but when installing those parts, I would think that the single piece found on yours and Jeff's is much easier. The differences in the top lever assembly will have no impact on the timing of the locking bolt, so that part of the tutorial will still apply to your shotgun in it's entirety.

As for the trigger spring, assuming that it is the same in your shotgun as it is in this one, I don't think you need to have one made. It is just a piece of spring wire for shotgun triggers. As long as it is bent to engage the triggers in their forward positions, there will be no slop. You will need a piece of spring wire approximately 2.5" long that you can work into the proper radius to fit in the channel for it on the trigger plate. Spring wire size is 0.024" which is S.W.G. = 23 or M.W.G. (Piano Wire) = 10.

[Bach Melick]

I can buy that there were some changes over that time frame. I would have to look at your shotgun to understand if the difference in the safety mechanism is one of those changes, and/or if it has anything to do with yours being an ejector gun. The safety assembly seems to be the most profound difference.

The difference in the top lever/cam assembly only makes sense as an improvement if you break the lever and have to replace it. Then having it affixed to the cam with a pin will come in handy, but when installing those parts, I would think that the single piece found on yours and Jeff's is much easier. The differences in the top lever assembly will have no impact on the timing of the locking bolt, so that part of the tutorial will still apply to your shotgun in its entirety.

As for the trigger spring, assuming that it is the same in your shotgun as it is in this one, I don't think you need to have one made. It is just a piece of spring wire for shotgun triggers. As long as it is bent to engage the triggers in their forward positions, there will be no slop. You will need a piece of spring wire approximately 2.5" long that you can work into the proper radius to fit in the channel for it on the trigger plate. Spring wire size is 0.024" which is S.W.G. = 23 or M.W.G. (Piano Wire) = 10.

I definitely agree that your tutorial will indeed help me, regardless of the differences in some of the pieces between our respective shotguns.

If you have not yet already returned the shotgun to its owner, then could you please take detailed close-up photos of that trigger spring and the bend(s) to which you are referring? I'll have to look again at home this evening after work to see whether there is a channel in the trigger plate for that... I never noticed (nor knew to look for) it before...

[alcaviglia]

Below are two images (if upload is successful). In the first, a pin punch is illustrating the rear of the channel for the wire spring. The second shows the spring laying in the channel.

[alcaviglia]

Also, the trigger spring pin is on it's head above my index finger in the second photo.

[Bach Melick]

I'm not at home right now, but I don't recall any such channel, nor any extra threaded hole into which a trigger spring pin might even screw...

[alcaviglia]

Okay, I will send out some emails to see what I can learn about the designs of Crass and Lewis and when changes were made.

In the meantime, if you are having trouble figuring out what - if anything - you are missing from the trigger plate assembly, upload a few photos of it.

[alcaviglia]

Bach,

The shotgun that I am working on is actually a Lewis model, confirmed by Mr. Snyder. Lewis models were made with serial numbers starting at 55000.

The similarities are quite numerous, but some of the tutorial (which is 2/3 completed, by the way) is not going to apply to a Crass.

[alcaviglia]

Lewis Model pins (refer to album):

[alcaviglia]

Crass Model pins (unlike the Lewis model, the Crass has sear pins that screw in from the outside of the receiver):

[alcaviglia]

Jeff,

If your shotgun is still disassembled and it's at all possible, could you please pass along the basic dimensions of the cam tensioning spring (that curved one you have laid out in the photos on page 1 of this thread)? I would need wire diameter, overall length of the spring, outside coil diameter, and # of coils. I'd like to make a replacement for the Lewis model and that would, at least, give me a good starting point.

Thanks either way.

[Bach Melick]

Bach,

The shotgun that I am working on is actually a Lewis model, confirmed by Mr. Snyder. Lewis models were made with serial numbers starting at 55000.

The similarities are quite numerous, but some of the tutorial (which is 2/3 completed, by the way) is not going to apply to a Crass.

I can reassemble my Crass, I just need help and guidance on how to properly install both those v-shaped mainsprings on each side...

I also figured out which parts I am missing, and your tutorial on timing the locking bolt will surely help as well...

[alcaviglia]

Okay, I am extremely busy through Wed. Hopefully, I can finish up the complete tutorial by next weekend. However, in the meantime here is my version of the installation of the mainsprings and hammers.

Tools:

5/32" pin punch
1/4" pin punch
flathead screw driver (approx. 1/4" blade and 8" long - longer is fine)
bench vise OR several c-clamps
turnscrews

Parts:

mainsprings (2)
mainspring strain pins (2)
hammers/strikers (2)
hammer pins (2)

First, secure the screwdriver handle in the vise (or clamp it to the bench) with the blade oriented horizontally (this will be used as a lever, so keep the shaft/blade accessible).

Next, place the first mainspring into receiver as shown in photo and keep it in place by installing the mainspring strain pin.

Next, support the receiver upside down on the bench and compress the mainspring far enough for it to clear the hole for the sear spring/cocking bar pin (I used the 1/4" punch to press against the leaf of the spring, but many things could work including your thumb if strong enough).

Insert the 5/32" pin punch through the hole in the receiver for the sear spring/cocking bar pin and seat it into the center block on the receiver (see photo). The mainspring will now be pressing against the pin punch and you're halfway home.

Next, wedge the blade of the clamped driver in between the pin punch and the mainspring and rock the front of the receiver downward so that the driver - acting as a lever - further compresses the mainspring.

Place the hammer into position and with it's through-hole aligned, install the corresponding hammer pin. The 5/32" punch will now fall out.

*NOTE: try not to release pressure on the lever until the hammer pin is screwed down quite far (ideally, all the way - but half a turn shy will be secure enough not to bugger the threads).

Remember that the 5/32" pin punch is a near perfect fit, but 11/64" will probably fit a bit better. I would find the best fit before getting started, just in case a Crass model is a bit different in that way from a Lewis.

[Bach Melick]

today I received a package from Numrich/Gun Parts Corp with 12 parts I had ordered from their Ithaca Crass page for my shotgun; unfortunately, only 3 of the parts fit, so now I have to send back the other 9... :(

[alcaviglia]

Ah, fun isn't it? I went through my box of Ithaca parts and it was slim pickings for the Crass model, but I have a few. What are you still looking for?

And have you reviewed my earlier post on the mainspring install? Any questions on it?

[Bach Melick]

For my shotgun, I am missing this part (or these parts) depicted in the following three (3) photos [these are all photos which others have already posted in this thread so far]:
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/hrt4me/IthacaCrass5-_zpsc57cfea1.jpg
Al labeled those two parts as (48) Trip Spring and (49) Trip Pin

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/hrt4me/IthacaCrass1_zpsed04708f.jpg
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/hrt4me/IthacaCrass2_zps00a3df92.jpg

From the Gun Parts Corp - Crass Hammerless (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/IthacaSKB-33316/Shotguns-36647/CrassHammerless-40953.htm) website, I thought that was part no. 1154850 - Cocking Bar Spring [PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM MISTAKEN], but regardless, the part I received did not fit as depicted in those three (3) photos, for it was too short to span the distance between the threaded hole and the smaller hole for the pin. I received a part like what Al showed, which is shorter than the other two photos with the (single, longer) part in place, as Jeff had initially posted. Additionally, I only received a single part, not two, i.e. I do not have a small diameter pin for that hole to retain the Barrel Locking Bolt...

Finally, can someone please explain the function of this part (these parts)?

[Bach Melick]

For reference, all my parts look exactly like what Jeff Bonadurer initially posted to start this entire thread. Unfortunately, they differ from the shotgun and parts which Al had to create his pictorial tutorial...

In this photo (which looks like my shotgun), can anyone identify the part(s) circled in red and explain their function?
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/hrt4me/IthacaCrass3_zpsca08df0d.jpg
Or does anyone happen to have better photos of that part (those parts)?


Also, can someone tell me on what the ends of the sear springs are pressing (the portions circled in red) - those are the mainsprings, right?
http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz344/hrt4me/IthacaCrass4-48TripSpring49TripPin_zps78a4bc8e.jpg


Finally, Al, yes, I studied what you posted about installing the mainsprings, and that shouldn't be any problem once I actually get to that step... I have to deal, however, with a few other issues (and missing parts) before I get to that point...

I will upload additional photos of my own Ithaca Crass and post them for reference

[alcaviglia]

Bach, the parts you are referring to comprise the trip assembly. That is what keeps the toplever to the right and the locking bolt in its rear position until the locking lug on the barrel set trips out the pin upon closing the breech.

Apparently, the trip spring (leaf spring) on a Crass model is a bit longer than that found on a Lewis model, and what Numrich had listed under its Crass model parts for sale was a Lewis model spring. It makes sense, the longer spring for the Crass model, since I believe the Crass receiver to be a bit longer than the Lewis.

If Jeff can get you the overall length of his Crass model spring, you can attempt to contact Numrich. Hopefully they will be willing to go through their stock of "Crass model" trip springs looking for the longer one(s) to send to you as a replacement. As mentioned once before in this thread, I had given something like that a try with them before, to no avail. Probably worth a shot, though.

[alcaviglia]

In the next two photos:

1) looks like something to do with the safety/trigger assembly.

2) yes, the front of the sear springs rest on the bend of the mainsprings. Those are the polished surfaces you have circled on each side.

[alcaviglia]

***note: what Numrich seems to have listed as the cocking bar spring is actually the trip spring and has nothing to do with the cocking bar. There is no cocking bar spring. The cocking bar engages the toes in the the hammers directly and any spring force acting on the cocking bar is transferred from the mainsprings through the hammers. From Jeff's photos, the Crass model looks to be identical in this way to the Lewis.***

[Robert Rambler]

In the first picture the trigger guard was turned to the left. Your seeing the curved part of the trigger guard behind the second trigger. Here it is in its proper position and also swung to the right.

[Bach Melick]

Bach, the parts you are referring to comprise the trip assembly. That is what keeps the top lever to the right and the locking bolt in its rear position until the locking lug on the barrel set trips out the pin upon closing the breech.

can you please elaborate exactly how that functions?

without that trip assembly part, I can visualize how the spring keeps rearward pressure on the barrel locking bolt (via the trip assembly pin located in the forward notch of the barrel locking bolt), but what I cannot visualize is how/where the locking lug on the barrel set trips out the pin (which pin?) upon closing the breech...?

I'm sure having that part would help...

[Bach Melick]

In the first picture the trigger guard was turned to the left. Your seeing the curved part of the trigger guard behind the second trigger. Here it is in its proper position and also swung to the right.

gotcha, thanks!

I have never rotated my trigger guard, so that's why it looked off to me...

[Bach Melick]

In the first picture the trigger guard was turned to the left. Your seeing the curved part of the trigger guard behind the second trigger. Here it is in its proper position and also swung to the right.

thanks, Robert!

any chances you have any more photos of your Crass you can post and share, particularly taken apart to any degree?

[alcaviglia]

can you please elaborate exactly how that functions?

without that trip assembly part, I can visualize how the spring keeps rearward pressure on the barrel locking bolt (via the trip assembly pin located in the forward notch of the barrel locking bolt), but what I cannot visualize is how/where the locking lug on the barrel set trips out the pin (which pin?) upon closing the breech...?

I'm sure having that part would help...

The locking lug on the barrel set strikes the trip spring directly, moving the trip pin out of the trip hole in the locking bolt so the bolt shoots forward locking the barrels.

[Bach Melick]

thanks, got it, that makes sense!

without that trip spring and its pin on hand, I had no idea the trip pin moved in and of the trip hole in the locking bolt; I had assumed the pin stayed fixed in place...

now to call Numrich / Gun Parts Corp and see whether they happen to have the correct parts for a Crass, not the Lewis parts they sent me...

[alcaviglia]

Best of luck!

[Bach Melick]

Best of luck!

If memory serves, then I seem to recall you are about an hour from Numrich/GPC... how often do you get there, and/or do you happen to have a good contact there?

[alcaviglia]

I am, but only get out there when I fish the reservoir or creeks of Sullivan County. Being so close, their shipping is pretty fast and I haven't purchased any restricted parts from them.

We're getting a bit of snow at the moment - why they may not picking up the phone. Not sure of how much they're getting across the river, though.

And no, I have no contact there, just an account.

[Bach Melick]

Well, I finally got around to completely re-assembling (with the parts on hand) my Ithaca Crass from the bag of parts I had received. This forum and thread was instrumental in helping me first figure out which parts I was missing so I could order what was available from Numrich/Gun Parts Corporation and then subsequently figure out the function of each part and how to properly put together this puzzle! I am still missing the trip spring and trip pin because nobody has those available, so I've done what I can to this point. I can open and close the barrels, and it properly cocks both internal hammers upon opening the breech and sets the safety on safe; then upon closing, it locks properly as intended. I can then slide the safety forward and dry fire both triggers with 12 gauge dummy shells/snap caps in each barrel.

So now the question is whether it would ever be safe to actually fire this 117 year old Ithaca Crass SxS 12 gauge shotgun? And if so, then can anyone suggest any weaker 12 gauge recipes which I can load myself?

[alcaviglia]

I use the Falcon Ultra Lite in my PAC Fox:

http://www.rstshells.com/store/pg/24-RST-Shotshells.aspx

Also the Polywad Vintager:

http://polywad.com/vintager.html

And this may be of some help:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=389200

[Bach Melick]

I use the Falcon Ultra Lite in my PAC Fox:

http://www.rstshells.com/store/pg/24-RST-Shotshells.aspx

Also the Polywad Vintager:

http://polywad.com/vintager.html

And this may be of some help:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=389200

many thanks!

I'll have the barrels inspected and gauged first