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Jim Haney
08-29-2009, 05:04 PM
Hi,
I have looked around the site and found a lot of good info about the gun I acquired. It is a Parker Bros. D'barrel 12 Ga. serial number 33767 made in 1883.

Frame size is 2
30" Barrels
Weight 5
Twist Steel
Total produced 5,122
Made in 1883

The barrel has two numbers. the serial nunber and the barrel number is 19445.Does this mean anything?
Also, the number to the left of the barrel number looks like a big "C' with the initials T J in it.
What would this mean?

Also, I believe the grade is C H Grade 4 ?
I am guessing about this based on the silver shield on the stock? Is this correct?

I included some pic's for viewing

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks, Jim Haney
Decatur, TN [/I]

Chuck Bishop
08-29-2009, 09:58 PM
Jim, you have a very interesting gun.

The engraving on the breach balls, hammers, and sidelocks looks like a Quality 2 Grade G however there is no letter or number designation on the receiver water table nor on the barrel flats. Also, the barrels are twist steel (this is what the large T inside the semi circles means plus what is on the rib.) Grade 2's should have damascus steel normally. Did you find the number 33767 on the left barrel lug or the last 3 digits of the s/n on the face of the barrel lug?? It could be that the barrels are a replacement if you don't find the serial number on the barrels. The forend should also have the s/n on the forend metal.

Also, take a picture of the checkering pattern on the forend and the underside of the receiver.

Looks like the stock is pulling away from the receiver, is this the case?

Let's get some other opinions from the group

Kurt Densmore
08-29-2009, 10:16 PM
#19445 is the order number

It sure looks like grade 2 engraving. Are there two birds on each lock plate and maybe one on the bottom of the action?? Kind of odd to have a grade 2 gun with twist bbls. Could have been ordered that way or are replacements. Also, the 5 lb pre struck weight stamp on the barrel flat is pretty heavy for 30" bbls....they may have been cut or are struck pretty stout. If it is tight and on face and the bores are clean it will make a good shooter.

The serial number isn't in the serialization book. Good luck and if you want more information you can send for a letter.

Good luck.
Kurt

Chuck Bishop
08-29-2009, 10:20 PM
I just checked the serialization book and The Parker Story.

According to the Serialization Book there were found 256 Quality 2 guns with twist barrels recorded as T2.

According to The Parker Story, there are only 2 top action guns recorded in the stock books as having T2 barrels and both of them are 10ga.

Bill Murphy
08-31-2009, 11:20 AM
It is probably a Grade 1 gun. A PGCA letter may solve the grade and barrel length mystery. Is the stock fitted tightly at the front of the receiver? The gaps at the rear suggest that the stock needs some work before shooting.

Jim Haney
09-01-2009, 09:19 PM
Chuck, Kurt & Bill,

Thanks so much for your replies and information.

The receiver is factory solid tight and I see what your concerns are about the 1/4" gap on the top view photo, however, it is as tight as can be. I didn't take a bottom picture but the receiver is solid against the stock underneath.

I found the serial number on the barrel as you said Chuck, so it is the original barrel. It has TWIST at the end of the logo in between the barrels after the Parker Bros. Meridian etc.

What is the average value of this gun? I would rate it below average or average because of the rust and pitting but it shoots and it is just an old original gun.

Thanks, Jim

Kurt Densmore
09-01-2009, 10:31 PM
Go to gunbroker. There are several low grade hammer guns on there right now. Some have a $400 starting bid with no reserve. You will get an idea of value when you see what they sell for.

Good Luck,
Kurt

Chuck, Kurt & Bill,

Thanks so much for your replies and information.

The receiver is factory solid tight and I see what your concerns are about the 1/4" gap on the top view photo, however, it is as tight as can be. I didn't take a bottom picture but the receiver is solid against the stock underneath.

I found the serial number on the barrel as you said Chuck, so it is the original barrel. It has TWIST at the end of the logo in between the barrels after the Parker Bros. Meridian etc.

What is the average value of this gun? I would rate it below average or average because of the rust and pitting but it shoots and it is just an old original gun.

Thanks, Jim

Dean Romig
09-01-2009, 11:33 PM
I agree with Bill on the grade 1 suggestion. With minimal scroll engraving and no birds engraved on the lock plates and the bottom of the frame it would follow true to form of a grade 1 with Twist barrels as would have been produced as a P grade in the hammerless guns later on. If it has engraved birds I will agree with Chuck's suggestion.

Chuck Bishop
09-02-2009, 08:40 AM
I don't have the experience that Bill and Dean have however from what I have seen in the Parker Story, the engraving on the breech balls and hammers suggest a Grade 2. A clear close up of the sidelocks, underside of the receiver, and the checkering pattern of the forend would shed some additional information on this gun. There are surviving factory records so a letter may help.

On the picture of the receiver, looks like some pitting around the left firing pin hole. What is the condition of the barrels both inside and outside? Clean the inside of the barrels with some bore cleaner and a good stiff bronze brush to get a good idea of the pitting. With an unstruck barrel weight of 5lb, those barrels should have plenty of thickness.

Where are you located? I would find a local gunsmith who is familiar with vintage side by sides and get his opinion. It may be a good canidate for a restoration or you could shoot it as it is:)

Destry L. Hoffard
09-02-2009, 06:50 PM
Looks like he's from Decatur, TN

Bill Murphy
09-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Post a picture of the bottom of the receiver for a better idea of the grade. There are Grade 1 guns in the forty some serial number range that have engraving patterns identical to Grade 2 guns except the bird vignette on the bottom is devoid of birds. I own such a gun and the engraving pattern was a surprise for sure.

Jim Haney
09-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Bill,
Here are some pics of under the receiver. Also some additional pics of the barrel for Chuck to see that the serial number is also there. I missed it the first time around.

I cleaned it up and found that the serial numbers are on every part. It is on the back of the butt plate, on the trigger guard (It took a minute to figure out how to remove:eek:) and the stock even has the number in the wood under the trigger guard.

I work on and collect pocket watches and all of the early watches have the serial numbers, or the last 4 digits, on evey piece. The reason is that in this early period of 1860- 1900 every item was hand finished and unique to the whole part and usually one piece would not interchange without some adjusting, filing etc.
My Dad bought this on the eastern shore (Ocean City, Md) at a yard sale for $100 and he made a $50 profit on it from me.

Dean Romig
09-03-2009, 12:52 PM
Yup, definately a grade 2 or G gun. The birds tell it all. you could reinforce this by posting pics of the lockplates where there should also be engraved game scenes with birds.

Bill Murphy
09-03-2009, 12:55 PM
Yup, looks like one of those rare and unusual Grade 1 guns with the abbreviated engraving pattern in the circle on the bottom of the receiver. Mine has no engraving at all in the circle.

Dean Romig
09-03-2009, 01:01 PM
Bill, time for new specs? There's a woodcock in the vignette.

Chuck Bishop
09-03-2009, 01:20 PM
Well, my backs getting sore from patting it so hard:corn:

Here is what I would do it it was mine.

1. Strip and clean the receiver getting as much crud out as possible. Check for proper operation.

2. The stock looks good at the base of the receiver but the top of the wood may be pulled away from the receiver and the top tang. Check for cracks under the sideplates and anywhere else around the head of the stock. A good stocker should be able to repair.

3. The barrels are the main concern if you want to shoot it. Send it to someone like Kearcher, Orlen, or Vicknair for inspection or repair.
We are having a big get together at Pintail Point on the eastern shore of MD Sept 25, 26, and 27 if you can make it.

Jim Haney
09-05-2009, 10:01 PM
Thanks so much for your help.

I would like to clear up some conflicting opinions.

Dean says it is a grade 2 or G gun and Bill says it is a grade 1?

Chuck, thanks for your advise from the beginning. I have fired both barrels and it works fine.

I cleaned it up some more and there was a small amount of pitting inside the right barrel and I used a barrel brush and oil and it took off the rust and polished up.

Don Kaas
09-06-2009, 10:21 PM
Grade 2. The engraving has it. It appears to be a Grade 2 action with Grade 0 barrels but...Parker was in business to make product and make a profit. They may have sold this gun at a Grade 1 price but if they did they did it to fill an order. Get a letter.

Bill Murphy
09-06-2009, 10:59 PM
I can see the woodcock, but that is about as little engraving in the circle as I have ever seen on a grade 2.

Jim Haney
09-17-2009, 04:38 PM
I sent in a check for the research letter. We can see what that turns up.

Jim Haney
09-21-2009, 01:17 PM
I recieved the letter back and find out it's a 10 Gauge.

Dean Romig
09-21-2009, 02:20 PM
Never say Never . . . :shock:

I learn something new every day here. Until now I have not seen or heard of a Grade 0 with that kind of engraving. Oh well, live and learn.

Bill Murphy
09-22-2009, 09:46 AM
I suspect that Parker used partially finished Grade 2 receivers to make Grade 1 and Grade 0 guns. In addition to my Grade 1 with obvious Grade 2 features, I have seen others in the same serial number range as mine with similar features. Two Grade 1s with Grade 2 engraving but with an empty, unengraved circle on the bottom or the receiver were also built with Damascus barrels. The Parker Story does mention a small number of Grade 1 hammer guns with Damascus barrels.

Dean Romig
09-22-2009, 10:11 AM
I have read somewhere, maybe it was Austin who wrote it, that the barrel steel determined the grade - Stub Twist and Twist being Grade 0; Laminated Steel being Grade 1; Damascus Steel being Grade 2 and above. After all, a Parker could be ordered with any number of upgrades and options but not (to my knowledge) barrel steel. So a Grade 0 with Twist barrels ordered with extra engraving or built on a Grade 2 frame as Bill suggests was certainly possible.

Dean Romig
09-23-2009, 12:51 AM
Forget what I posted above. I just re-read the Research letter on my 'unfired' 16 ga. top action hammer gun with Laminated Steel barrels and it is identified as a 0-Grade. As EDM used to say "investigation continues . . ."

Bill Murphy
09-23-2009, 08:51 AM
My Grade 1 is shown in the Stock Book as a Grade 1, even though it has Damascus barrels. There is a Grade 0 hammer gun in the books with Bernard barrels, and also a similar gun with Damascus barrels.

Dean Romig
09-23-2009, 10:30 AM
Like I said, "Forget what I posted above". And with the examples you provide Bill, I'll reiterate - Forget what I posted above.

Don Kaas
09-25-2009, 12:09 PM
There are 12 DH guns with Vulcan barrels and a few hundred CHs with Titanic barrels. So if the designated type of steel was determinative of the grade of gun these guns would be VH (0 grade) and DH (3 grade), respectively. The type steel (usually) tells you what the gun is...except in lower grade late hammerguns then the price charged gives one a better clue. Hover, the DH 8 bore I bought yesterday letters as a GH because that is what the customer ordered. The gun is marked "3" on the barrels flats and the Damascus is obviously D3 in quality. The watertable is marked "3" and the checkering is DH on english walnut and the gun has a skeleton buttplate factory stamped with the serial number. The engraving is pure D grade but for the substitution of two different scenes of 4 ducks (aka "aka flying turnips") each in each side panel in place of the usual pointer and setter with 4 more ducks on the floorplate panel. Mark Conrad speculates and I agree the Parker filled an order for a GH 8 bore with a DH that was either in progress or in stock due to a cancelled order. They charged the original owner a GH price and he got a full blown upgrade. Dean is right...never say never...

E Robert Fabian
09-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Don, sounds like a helluva find hope when you find time we see a few pictures. Sounds like it could make the calender.