.410

[Jack Cronkhite]

BHE .410 at Little John's (http://www.icollector.com/Parker-by-Winchester-410ga-BHE-grade-side-by-side-shotgun-on-factory-small-frame-showing-26-b_i10488354)

[charlie cleveland]

i wish i was rich as old king solomen....that little gun would be mine....all these good ones turn up when your broke....nice gun thanks jack..... charlie

[Greg Baehman]

I have a feeling that gun might surpass their pre-auction estimate by just a smidgeon. :corn: And when the dust settles Little John will be looking to high-five anybody that comes near him.

[Russ Jackson]

Wish he had a buy now ,from $3000.00 to $ 6000.00 !:cool:

[Paul D Narlesky]

Everyone wants double triggers so just leave that one for me. I am in at say 2100.....:rolleyes::rolleyes: Best, Paul

[Jack Cronkhite]

A very pretty gun alright. It will be fun to watch that one roll over. What is the current exchange rate between the $$$ and the $midgeon ??

[Harry Collins]

With the engraving on the barrel it looks like a AAHE!

Harry

[Richard Flanders]

What a nice Repro, eh? Gorgeous!

[Jack Cronkhite]

Now, not to be picky but Winchester folks did not perfectly index the screws. Gotta knock a few $midgeons off for that.

[Kenny Graft]

Im week..I love them little 410ers....Placed my best price im willing to pay...under Big-K, wish me luck.... probably will fall short...The next bid jumps to 12500.00 + 15.5% fee's,,, Now thats a lotta money! There are some nice old colt S.A.A. in this lot!!! Double triggers are KING!!! will need a conversion set....would I really shoot a gun like this....Yup!!! Think about all them original well used Hi grade Parkers we see show up....didn't get that way in a box!!!! Ahhh its fun to dream@%&!* thanks all SXS ohio...(-:

[Bill Murphy]

That .410 looks like the one I ordered in 1988, but I ordered double triggers. Kenny, are you ordering on the internet auction site? I think there is an added fee for bidding that way. There are guns I would bid on, but I am not up to the red tape of absentee bidding.

[Kenny Graft]

Yes...they will add 15.5% to win amount plus ship/ins. Im hi bid at 10K...looking good? unless it jumps to 12500.00 with the next bid.....that makes my bid of 10K=11500.00 with buyer fee...thats tops for me!!!!, Im O.K. with that but no more! Next bidder can have her!!!! at 14250.00 ish...SXS ohio...(-:

[Paul D Narlesky]

Hang in there Kenny that is tough one to find, You can always sell another gun if you pay a bit too much....I am cheering for you ! Best,Paul

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, I don't know when the auction ends, but your bid is way less than the gun is worth. Some of those guns have sold in the twenties. This is my dream gun, but I don't have time to fool with it, but I think you should. Go for it. Go up to the low twenties without any fear of losing money.

[Bill Murphy]

This is the low point of some gun prices, in my opinion. If our friends don't benefit from this phenomenon in this auction, too bad.

[Bill Murphy]

Kenny, keep us informed.

[Kenny Graft]

Gun was sold for 11K to floor bidder.....If it would have been double triggers I would have bid more....This was a very good buy at anyrate! I would prefer a B grade repro with DT-PG in 20 gauge and add a set of 16 barrels to it.....now we are talking! My most faverit and usefull gauge is 16. These guns can be very light but pack the punch of a 12...(-: The normal weight for a repro 16 DT-PG-SF is 6lbs-4oz sweet... SXS ohio

[Mike Shepherd]

Kenny I bid on several guns there. Do you know how I can get the auction results?

619 10DG1- 462 WEBLEY #728057 1.00 sealed -closed- Absentee Sealed Bid
368 11BF-13 Winchester Mdl. 23LD #LD-246E 1.00 sealed -closed- Absentee Sealed Bid
240 11DG2-24 Krieghoff #1036 1.00 sealed -closed- Absentee Sealed Bid
1099 11DG2-25 Parker 3 bbl set #28-02074 1.00 sealed -closed- Absentee Sealed Bid
645 11DG2-26 Parker cased 1.00 sealed -closed- Absentee Sealed Bid


Thanks,

Miike

[Kenny Graft]

I had the 410 book marked and it showed the sold price....might try and go directly to little johns sight and look there...? thnaks SXS ohio

[Mike Shepherd]

Here is the link to the .410. Is this the same page you are looking at. Because this blind hog can't find the sold price if it is. Thanks!

http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=44344&weid=16998&weiid=6087830&lso=lotnumasc&pagenum=14&lang=En

Mike

[Paul Ehlers]

Here ya go Mike.

http://www.icollector.com/Parker-by-Winchester-410ga-BHE-grade-side-by-side-shotgun-on-factory-small-frame-showing-26-b_i10488354

Kenny,

IMO you should have pulled the trigger on this one. This is one of the rarer repro's and it sold at a very good price. A couple of three years down the road you will be kicking yourself for not popping the extra couple of grand.

All the best,

Paul

[Mike Shepherd]

Thanks Paul! That was what I needed.

I went through the other guns I bid. I may have gotten the Webley and Scott 28 gauge. My bid on it was the same amount as the winning bid but it said "floor" on the icollector website you sent me the link to. Guess I will know in a day or two.

Thanks again Paul. Thanks Kenny.

Best,

Mike

[Chuck Heald]

Now Bill, "...my dream gun..."? What about all that jabbin you've given me on .410's?:draw::biglaugh:

[Bill Murphy]

I was out of town and just didn't go through the effort of absentee bidding. In my opinion, the gun could have sold for twice the winning bid and been a decent deal.

[Mike Franzen]

Kenny were you the winner???

[Kenny Graft]

No ...floor bidder got it for 11K plus fee's 1700.00 = 12700.00 approx. A very good buy....

[Bill Anderson]

No ...floor bidder got it for 11K plus fee's 1700.00 = 12700.00 approx. A very good buy....

"Good buy", maybe?????? It may also show that the current market is saying "good bye" to gun values over all. Scary even......

Bill

[Bill Murphy]

The last couple of Littlejohn's Auctions have been Robert Petersen's gift to shooters, collectors and dealers who gave him a good life. In addition to the outrageous guns that were recently sold at auction for reasonable prices, he donated the Invincibles and other guns to the National Firearms Museum some time back, and recently donated 450 more items to the NFM. The NFM staff was allowed to pick and choose the 450 items. The latest Littlejohn's pickings were the "leftovers".

[Bill Anderson]

No ...floor bidder got it for 11K plus fee's 1700.00 = 12700.00 approx. A very good buy....

Looks like everyone will get another crack at the "bargain gun".

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100189507

Bill

[Paul Ehlers]

Nothing like being modest about the asking price. I don't mind a man making a profit for his investment. But in this case it simply takes my breath away.

I felt the gun went fairly cheap at the auction, but in no way do I think it's worth the current asking price.

The provenance of Bob Peterson is one thing to all of us at this time. Give it another generation into the future and they will be asking "Bob Who"

[Chris Travinski]

I understand buying/selling/collecting, but it seems to me this happens all too often. It's hard for people who want to buy a gun to keep and use when there are so many people buying them up to make a profit. How many times does a gun sell +$500-1000? before it ends up in someone's safe for good. I can't tell you how many times I've missed out at an auction and found the gun forsale for two grand higher than it sold a week later. I know it's a business, if you don't have money you shouldn't play, blah blah, it's frustrating. My two cents, don't mean to hurt any feelings.

Chris

[Bill Murphy]

Paul, Petersen provenance is less important than the fact that Petersen's guns are the cream of the crop in some cases. Visit the NFM and you will wonder how he accumulated his guns. It seems like one man couldn't possibly do it. I have not seen the Petersen Automotive Museum, but it is probably the same "cream of the crop" type of collection.

[Paul Ehlers]

Bill,

I totally agree with you about Bob Peterson. He was a one of a kind collector and gentleman. He also had the financial where with all to purchase the best & most special of everything. This BHE .410 repro being one of them. It's quite possibly the nicest and one of the rarest of the Parker repro's.

The point that I was trying to make was that Bob is very well known to us now, but how many will truly remember him a generation from now?

As far as the gun goes:
We all know what it sold for at auction just a few weeks ago and now it's the seller that is making a big deal out of it being ordered by Bob Peterson for his collection. When I read the ad I took it that the seller thinks the gun is worth over double what he paid for it because of the provenance. IMO the seller is just fishing hoping to find the right buyer that doesn't know or care that the gun was just hammered at auction for less than half of the asking price.

What is an acceptable profit margin and where does the line get drawn for being ripped off? Only each of as indivduals can answer that question for themselves. If someone buy's this gun at the asking price and is good with it so am I & I wish them the best.

One thing for sure though is the internet has changed the game considerably. A few years ago we wouldn't have know instantly the auction sale price or would we be having this discussion about it.

I just wish one of the members here would have won the auction and been able to put the gun in his collection. Then we would have been congratulating him for winning it, rather than talking about someone trying to hit a home run profit wise.

[Bill Murphy]

I agree with everything you say and the collector who keeps his nose to the ground is in the best position to keep up with the moneychangers.

[Greg Baehman]

It's the same buyer/seller of this .410 that has the Duck Stamp Special for sale at a cool $60G. If he should eventually get his asking prices for these two guns you're looking at $86,000.00! Contemplate that for a moment . . . who'da thunk it for a couple of Repros?:eek:

[Mike Shepherd]

I believe that as long as the seller is not misrepresenting the guns he should ask for them what he thinks he can get for them. If he makes a mistake at an auction and pays too much for a gun he will probably be the one to take the financial whipping. If he makes a good deal at an auction I don't see that it obligates him to sell at less than he can get for the gun.

I have owned a small business for twenty nine years and have fielded many questions from individuals about prices being high. When it came time to make Friday payroll or pay the note at the bank I noticed I was always alone and on my own. The selling price is independent of what the product cost the seller in my opinion.

Best,

Mike

[Chris Travinski]

Mike,
You hit the nail on the head, I can't disagree with you. In my thick Polish head, I think it's more important that these guns find good homes where they can be enjoyed instead for bought and sold for profit.

[Fred Preston]

Mike, Don't forget the tax collector.

[Bill Murphy]

???

[Paul Ehlers]

The collector who keeps his nose to the ground is in the best position to keep up with the moneychangers.

Very well said !!

[Francis Morin]

Very well said !!- No doubt related to the same ones our Lord drove outta da temple back in His era=-- Just because a wealthy gentleman who made his money in an honest fashion ordered a scarce "midget" gauge BHE Japanese copy of a Old Reliable, and then later died- I've seen the same thing in the high-end bamboo rod "schlepers"-- When Gary Howells died some years ago, the price of his sweet cane rods went up- I bought a 7 & 1/2' 2/2 3 & 3/4 oz. Howells from a private party in 1986- MINT almost unfished, original bag, tube and tag for $450 (when I was picking up very good 3 pc. 8 ft/ W&M Grangers for half that price- It's not for sale, but I have seen them listed on dealer's catalogues for 3K and up--

A reasonable mark-up, yes- And I buy guns to shoot, not to rest in the Browning Steel Tomb with the Sergeant & Greenleaf combo lock- if I wanted a "midget" gauge gun, and a double, I'd make brother Dean Roming and offer on his Minty IJ Skeeter- and save the difference in cash outlay against this auctioned Repro for a nice dove and quail hunt with it--:bigbye:

[Bobby Cash]

I think AmarilloMike nailed it.
Didn't the new buyer purchase the RIGHT to ask whatever price he sees fit for his new gun?

Mike,
In my thick Polish head, I think it's more important that these guns find good homes where they can be enjoyed instead for bought and sold for profit.

Sorry Chris but I think your statement is a little sophmoric. Who's to say that this little beauty isn't in a good home now being enjoyed regardless of the new buyers intentions for his new gun. Perhaps the government should step in and determine the future of this gun instead of the free market. Maybe our current administration could develope a Parker Reproduction redistribution program.
Personally, I prefer capitalism and free market economics.

[Francis Morin]

I understand buying/selling/collecting, but it seems to me this happens all too often. It's hard for people who want to buy a gun to keep and use when there are so many people buying them up to make a profit. How many times does a gun sell +$500-1000? before it ends up in someone's safe for good. I can't tell you how many times I've missed out at an auction and found the gun forsale for two grand higher than it sold a week later. I know it's a business, if you don't have money you shouldn't play, blah blah, it's frustrating. My two cents, don't mean to hurt any feelings.

Chris On my paternal side, our surname was Murinski- my grandparents migrated over in 1911- from NW Poland (near the German border) small mining town named "Lucky"- go figure dat, eh?) I agree-, these auction houses- and other non shooting dealers who set prices sky high, and based on a "wing and a prayer"- I could care less if the late Robert Petersen almost owned this Japanese-made copy of a BHE, ditto if anyone else well known in the gun circles did- saw the same thing with bamboo fly rods- wait until a fire takes out Leonard in Central Valley, or Jimmy payne or H.S. Gillum get the "dirt nap" and see how the dealers mark up their rods they already had for sale- just due to that. The free market system is the fairest known, but I agree with you- and like the late Ernest hemingway- I also believe, as did my Dad and Granddad (on my Irish side) that guns were there for us to shoot and use and care for- you can betcha u duppa on dat!!:bigbye::bigbye:

[Greg Baehman]

The seller apparently got frustrated by the gun not selling at his $26,000 asking price, so now he's bumped it to $29,000.00. That ought to do it.

[Francis Morin]

The seller apparently got frustrated by the gun not selling at his $26,000 asking price, so now he's bumped it to $29,000.00. That ought to do it. $30K for a SUB-MIDGET GAUGE- THAT I COULD WRAP MY HANDS AROUND THE FOREARM AND NEVER SEE STEEL- shoot, that kinda money would send some Kennedy to earn his "Gentleman's C" at Harvard or Yale for 1/2 a term-- dunno what we need more of today- overpriced crippling sub bores (Nash Buckingham hated the .410, loved the 12- Yeah Nash) or over educated Ivy league numbskulls in our Government- Mama Mia:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::crying ::crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

[Mike Shepherd]

Well Francis these guns are for sport so by definition it is not a rational choice. All the rational people are in the drive-up line at Kentucky Fried Chicken, not out in the field pursuing their Gallinaceous birds with pointing dogs and a Parker 410.

In regard to crippling I argue that it is the sportsman and not the gauge that determines that outcome.

I went to public schools and don't own a 410.

Best,

Mike

[Dean Romig]

The seller apparently got frustrated by the gun not selling at his $26,000 asking price, so now he's bumped it to $29,000.00. That ought to do it.

Strangely enough, that philosophy is often very effective. My mother would resort to that tactic in her antique shop if a particular iten sat in the shop too long.

Bump the price significantly and it will often sell quickly.

Some people just don't think they are getting something of value unless they pay a lot :shock:

[Marvin Kells]

The seller apparently got frustrated by the gun not selling at his $26,000 asking price, so now he's bumped it to $29,000.00. That ought to do it.

I better buy it quick before it goes up again! :eek:

[Francis Morin]

I went to Catholic schools (semi-public in the 1950's as we also had some non-Catholic students in our classes then too) But I disagree on the sportsman/gauge theory for game birds- you can shoot or shoot at all the clays, crows, barn pigeons, starlings, whatever is legal for a 12 bore with a .410 and you won't hear a squawk of protest from me. I stay with my 12 bores (I do own 3 20's- will be Grandsons' starter guns later on) because at age 70 I kill more efficiently and hit birds that I might miss with the lighter bore guns I carried and shot when I was 35- I also gravitate towards 28" and 30" barrels with tighter chokes, my reaction time is also slower and a muzzle forward balanced shotgun works best for me.

All my shotgunning gurus, now all gone- favored the 12 bore guns: Captain Paul Curtis, Nash Buckingham, Havilah Babcock, Archibald Rutledge, Ray P. Holland, Captain Harold Money, both my late father and grandfather as well. The only exception to this stellar list of "Shootin'Ist Gentlemen" might be the late Dwight D. Eisenhower, who sometimes uses his M42 Winchester on quail. And my all-time favorite Army General, George Smith Patton Jr.-had a borrowed 12 bore side-by-side with him when he endured the fatal (3 weeks later) car accident while on his way to a pheasant hunt in Dec. 1945- his .410 CHE Parker was, I am sure, back home in the States- You could get brass 12 gauge shells (albiet buckshot loads) in any Allied armory in Europe (or the Pacific) at that time, .410's- not so much.:cool::cool:

Mike[/quote]

[Bill Murphy]

Although I am reluctant to reply to any of Francis' reckless ramblings, his comment about General Patton's use of a 12 gauge reminded me of something. I recall a pleasant day with fellow Parker guy Kevin McCormack shooting skeet with General Patton's little 30" 20 gauge DHE as part of the preparation for a photo shoot for The Parker Story. This little shooting session took place at Kevin's and my skeet club and Kevin later took the pictures for TPS. The odd thing about this exercise is that neither Kevin nor I seem to have considered that the General probably shot at our club when he lived in Montgomery County Maryland.

[Francis Morin]

Your timely reply almost makes me wish I had attended Georgia Tech- so you could more accurately call me a "ramblin' wreck". Not an engineer, but passed SMAW all positions to ASTM and API codes and know just enough of metallurgy (both ferrous and non-ferrous metals) to be considered "dangerous". Almost makes me wish I had attended college after HS, instead of enlisting in the USMC, but that's water gone under the bridge.

I also appreciate brother Suponski's "thanks" to your reply. With Pulaski days (or per the syntax in Dave's first rate article covering the North East SxS Classic pages 20-21 and 22)-- maybe that's Pulaski day'?? Fourth graph, near the end-' so that us boy's could--? boy's what- baseball gloves, hockey sticks? the unneeded apostrophe here indicates possive, ditto the last line- These gal's are the best- gal's what- purses, membership cards in the Ladies Aid Society, what? I might have rewritten that as-- "so that we could go out to play- and These gals are the best (and I am sure they are, even women being involved in a man's (ok to use the possessive here Dave) sport is an conundrum to me. I could feel the battery acid breath of Sister Mary Frigidare breathing down my neck in English composition, almost here the 'swishing' of her 15" ruler- aka- "The old knuckle cracker" as she was a stickler for getting it right- every time. As are most bosses in the skilled trades, as we both know. Great article and fotos, almost (but not quite) makes me wish I lived in the Eastern Seaboard and had an interest in breaking clays as you fellows have.

Often wondered about those Twists of fate- how the world might have been different if an Austrian Corporal with the Iron cross was killed by an Allied sniper instead of American poet/soldier Joyce Kilmer by a German sniper. How might the outcome of WW11 in the ETO have been if the soldier with the nervous breakdown had not been in that tent in Sicily when Patton visited- General George S. Patton Jr. logged far more hours visiting field hospitals and awarding purple hearts and other decorations for valor in combat than any other American or british field Commander in the entire during of the War in Europe.:bigbye::bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

Dave, my friend, thank you for the recognition of my story. I wish you could have been there, as I wish I could have been at the Meriden reunion. The owner of the little gun is a long time friend of Kevin's and mine, a Patton family member, and an active shooter.

[Dean Romig]

Bill, I know the Pattons up here in Hamilton, MA. Very nice people.

I've got to agree with you on your r.r. commentary too. No offense Francis, but you just proved Bill's point.

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Bill, I thought it was was a wonderful story. I read Francis's reply three times and still don't understand. I think I'll just go to bed...

[Bill Murphy]

Francis' alter ego on the doublegun.com forum has just been banned from the site. Like Francis, his alter ego will be allowed back when he settles down. His banishment was discussed on the other site, but he was never actually banned. I really don't remember whether Francis was allowed back here by the webmaster or just reregistered under another name.

[Francis Morin]

Like about maybe 80% of the PGCA Members, I pay my annual dues, under my given name Francis Morin, as the rules and regs. required. If you have a question, and as a Life member since third grade (age 9 perhaps) you most certainly allowed that option, as RHIP-- please feel free to contact our webmaster John Dunkle and I am sure he can clarify whatever seems to be troubling you at this juncture in time.

What happens, or does not happen, on any other website I may subscribe to, has absolutely no bearing on my membership or posting threads (or responding to them in kind) here on the PGCA. If you should choose to see it differently, that is, of course, your option.

Mae and I might be visiting my baby sister Clothilde, she and her husband live in Germantown, MD. If that is close to where you live, perhaps we can meet somewhere for a drink, and you can see, a la George C. Scott in the 1970 movie "Patton"- the scene where Ike orders him to apologize for slapping the soldier- "If I am really as big of a SOB as you think I am"-- Cheers:bigbye::bigbye:

[Francis Morin]

Thanks Bill, I thought it was was a wonderful story. I read Francis's reply three times and still don't understand. I think I'll just go to bed...-- If you will aloow my "play on the word 'Millwright'- and as we both have a machine shop background. I have a keen eye for details, crucial to certain skilled trades-and also some military MOS-- About a year ago I noted in an issue of our beloved Parker Pages that your good friend Bill Murphy's lovely wife Linda had her (and Bill's) last name miss-spelled- as Murphey, instead of Murphy. I made mention of that error, in the same wise as when we were discussing Bourbon whiskies, and someone replied that George Dickel was their favorite whisky- wrong spelling here, Famous grouse is a whisky, George Dickel is a whiskey--

Perhaps I should have directed my observations as to the improper usage of the apostrophe and the s that followed in both the boy's and later the gal's to the proofreader at PP. What I was trying to explain to you, besides my remarks as to the top quality of the photos and the overall balance of your article, is that such usage is in error.

We all try to detail our beloved Parkers, both by written words and by photos to be "dead nutz" perfect, so that both our brother members of the PGCA and the casual readers of our Forums will know we are 100% serious about our love of the "Old Reliables". If you, hypothetically, were to show one of our fine Parkers in the proper forum here, and miss-described a DHE as a BHE, would you not expect some other equally sharp-eyed reader to make note of that error? I should hope so.

With the celebration of the brave Revolutionary hero Casmir Pulaski upon us, and with the fact that my surname once was Murinski- well, you can bet your dupa I'll be around for quite a while- eagle eyed and as always, Your Observant Servant, (with credit due to the late Robert C. Ruark)!!:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::b anghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::cuss::cuss: :cuss::cuss::cuss:

[Francis Morin]

Francis' alter ego on the doublegun.com forum has just been banned from the site. Like Francis, his alter ego will be allowed back when he settles down. His banishment was discussed on the other site, but he was never actually banned. I really don't remember whether Francis was allowed back here by the webmaster or just reregistered under another name.-- It is 22:30 hrs here, and I just logged on to the www.doublegunshop.com forum, the one operated by Dave Weber in upstate New York (near Doug Turnbull's shop)- I logged in as usual, and just posted my ad under the WTB sector- (just as I did here on our PGCA members Sale sector- for the Ithaca 16 gauge NID buttstock a friend needs)--

There are many duplicate websites out there in "Al Gore's internet-Land" so perhaps you are thinking of another one that sounds like doublegunshop, but maybe isn't. You are 100% correct- I post here under my given name, as the rules require- and on the above mentioned doublegunshop as Run With The Fox--those are the only two gun related websites to which I subscribe. I do own a Fox Sterlingworth, and four LC Smiths, but do not post on either of those "brother" websites, as they do not allow one to buy or sell complete shotguns, as we may here. I hope this clarifies things a bit for you.:p:p:p:nono::nono::nono::nono:

[Dave Suponski]

Francis, Thank you for the long winded reply and also for correcting my grammer. Now I understand where you were going with that previous post. I hope that my mistakes in proper grammer didn't lessen the readers enjoyment.

Maybe we should employ your"eagle eye"as a proof reader for Parker Pages....:rolleyes:

[Joe Bernfeld]

I actually thought there might have been something posted here recently about Parker Repro .410s :banghead:!

[Dave Suponski]

Sorry Joe...Didn't mean to hijack this thread. I was just responding to a post directed to me. Now back to .410's.......:)

[Francis Morin]

Eagle eyes is the magazine for current and retired members of the storied 101st A/B Div- not my branch of service, but at age almost 70 my distance vision is still 20/15 uncorrected in each eye (much like Gen. Chuck Yeager's when he was 'three score and ten"--

Your article was first class, I just have that keen sniper's eyes for details, and when I see something amiss- it jumps out at me- like our area NAPA store with the sign-- Parts Manuels on Sale for John Deer, J.C. Case- etc- You don't need to be fluent in Spanish ( Asi como yo y Angel Cruz) to know that was a miss-spelling of the work for "parts book/schematics- aka manuals- also as I own three of their fine Green and Yellow tractors, it is John Deere, also J.I. Case- not J.C. as in Pennys-- The owner is a good friend, he corrected the spelling after I told him, and gave me 4 quarts of Pennzoil 10-W-40 for those tractors (one is a 530- two are lawn and garden tractors with USA mfg. Kohler cast iron block engines)--

Yes, one of my many faults is that I am 'windy" that may be due to my having dyslexia as a youth- back in the 1940-1950 Parochial school era, they didn't recognize that, the Nuns had a 'field day" with me and their rulers, trying to "beat that Devil out of me"-- But I am not alone, my favorite of many US Army Generals, George Smith Patton Jr., was also dyslexic, barely made it from VMI into West Point and graduated at the bottom of his class-

If I have any virtues, a question open for debate I am sure, it is that I am 100% loyal to my friends and subscribe to the "Guy Code" and the meaning of "Semper Fi" As we are not friends, just fellow members of the PGCA, I most likely tend to 'over-explain" things to you in an effort not to be misunderstood- one Pollack to another--:cool::cool::cool:

Maybe we should employ your"eagle eye"as a proof reader for Parker Pages....:rolleyes:[/quote] How much does it pay??

[Bill Murphy]

Francis' alter ego whom I described from the doublegunshop.com forum is an agravating personality who has chosen to imitate Francis by posting lengthy, meaningless posts unrelated to the subject of the thread. He had become so harmful to the harmony of the forum that our friend Dave Weber was forced to give him a temporary rest in the form of a suspension, a fate that Francis suffered a while back on this site for similar behavior.

[Francis Morin]

I just revisited the doublegunshop site and logged in as RWTF- and posted a question about an Ithaca 12 NID for sale. I have not received any notification from Dave Weber that my "membership" is suspended for any reasons. I would hope that you or any other of my "detractors" who seem to object to my long and rambling posts and replies, both here on the PGCA and on the DoubleGunShop, would take the time to visit that site and see that I am telling the truth. I have not been "banned" or suspended- if truth be told, and here I am violating one of my salient rules- that being- "What happens on the PGCA Forum stays on the PGCA Forum and does NOT transpose to any other Forum, ditto in vice versa from the DoubleGunShop forum to here-- But from being a member there for about 4 years, I might think that "Homeless Joe" and now the hapless Mr. Ed Good might also be "in the running" if Dave Weber is, indeed, compiling a "Fecal roster" of obstreperous members whom he wishes to evict from the premises, as it were.

I have tried to 'make the peace" with you for a long time, apparently to know avail howsome-ever. IMO, you came very close to calling me a "liar' about the two AH 12 Parkers that my late maternal grandfather left me in his estate- you demanded fotos and evidence- I do not know, nor really care, how many of those fine guns were made, nor do I ever wish to display fotos of them here, or take them to any shows or side-by-side shootfests- that is my option, and if i had it to do here over again, I would have just mentioned the two "plain Jane" 12 Trojans I owned in years past and left the AH "dogs to sleep"==

Now, for some strange reasoning beyond my ken, you continue to post what I might call a 'patent untruth' and like a Philadelphia lawyer in Court- the proof is at hand. All you needed to do to resolve this "issue" in an amicable manner suitable, IMO, for a LIFE MEMBER OF THIS AUGUST ASSN.- is to take my suggestion and visit the Double Gun Shop forum and look up my recent post (made about 10 minutes ago) re: the Ithaca NID 12. If that is NOT sufficient proof to you that you unfounded staements are false and inaccurate, then I don't know what it will take to satisy you.

What is it about me that 'sets you off in such a tizzy' Bill. Is it the fact that I inherited two fairly good Parker 12 bores, guns that perhaps you and some of the other "Eastern Seaboard Mafia" here might have had to buy? That is pure "luck of the draw"- if I had a brother, along with 6 sisters, he would have received one of those two Parkers I am sure.

Yes I ramble. Is that a crime in your lexicon. I sell a fair number of guns and gun parts, those that are permitted of course, to brother members here on the PGCA, and always offer a 100 & return NQA-- I have yet had one single item returned or questioned as to its accuracy after it was received. I also have between 60 and 70 friends through the PGCA, I haven't looked at your profile for that detail, assume you have at least that many or more, being both a Lifer and a member since 3rd. grade. Impressive.

We do no good to the growth of the PGCA by having this 'dirty linen' aired. What if you were a new prospective member here, and you came across this thread, which, I will admit, has gotten waaaaaaaay outta hand (IMO anyway) what would you say about two grown men, both of whom served our Country- you in the Army's 82nd A/B Div- and myself in the USMC, having such a public 'to do", reminds me of the line from a Rogers & Hammerstein musical score-- "A lot of tempest in a pot of tea"__

So, what do you say here, Bill. Let's 'bury the hatchet' at least for the good of the PGCA, and leave the DoubleGunShop forum out of our discussions here, as it does not work. I'll still offer to buy you a drink when Mae and I visit my baby sister and her husband in Germantown, MD.

I bear you no ill will- as Confucious once so wisely said: "A man who carries a grudge will end up digging two graves"! I don't know about you, but I'll save my digging energy for pit blinds for goose hunting!:cool::cool:

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, I did not read your last post, but I assume that you incorrectly think that I am referring to you as the person who was suspended over on the other forum. It is not you whom I am referring to.

[Francis Morin]

Francis, I did not read your last post, but I assume that you incorrectly think that I am referring to you as the person who was suspended over on the other forum. It is not you whom I am referring to. And as what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, and as I just "adjusted' the syntax of brother Suponski's recent article in PP, allow me to extend the same courtesy to your reply- It is NOT proper grammer to end a sentence in a preposition. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant to write "It is not you to whom I am referring"--

I hope the possible proof reading job for our PP that Dave Suponski alluded to in his kind reply to me becomes available. I would be very pleased to accept that post if so offered. -30-:whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Bill Murphy]

Thank you, Francis. I try to be grammatically correct, but sometimes that "dangling preposition" is the hardest nut to crack. By the way, I saw some great Parkers at the Chantilly, VA gun show this weekend.

[Jack Cronkhite]

A grammar teacher once told me Your classroom shenanigans are a distraction up with which I shall not put.

Off to detention - something I occasionally had to put up with. Ooops :rolleyes:

[Mike Shepherd]

This thread has been hijacked and gone twice around the world now so:

"Is it acceptable to end a sentence in a preposition?"

From Wikipedia / Wiki Answers:

Yes. It is perfectly acceptable.

There is a very common misunderstanding that, in proper English grammar, one should never end a sentence with a preposition (of, at, on, in, etc.).

It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition, as long as that preposition is critical to the meaning of the sentence.

I am Edmond Weiss, author of of the book referred to as Writing Remedies, but which is actually called 100 Writing Remedies. Although this book does contain the passage "Do not end a sentence with a preposition," in fact I never wrote that sentence. What I wrote was: A preposition is a word you should not end a sentence with. The young copy editor at Oryx Press did not get the joke, replaced my sentence with the one you quoted, and refused to follow my instructions to put things back. There is not now, nor has there ever been, any rule against ending an English sentence with a preposition.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_prep osition#ixzz1aIaDUfMh

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_prep osition

Addtionally:



Some sentences do properly end with a preposition The learnèd fools set you up. Do not give in. This phony rule is nothing we must put up with. Latin sentences may not end with a preposition, but it is perfectly correct in English.

There is nothing grammatically incorrect, at least in the English language, about ending a sentence with a preposition. Technically, this is referred to as "preposition stranding", and it occurs any time a preposition and its object are separated, not just at the end of a sentence (Note, the separation of the preposition and its object must be by more than an adjective or two to qualify as preposition stranding: "with a sunny disposition" is not preposition stranding. Also, preposition stranding usually involves reversing the usual order, i.e., placing the object somewhere before the preoposition.) But wherever in the sentence it occurs, there is absolutely nothing wrong with preposition stranding. What is wrong is to rearrange a sentence in a way that makes it cumbersome or less understandable, all in an effort to follow this false rule.

One example sentence commonly (and deceitfully) used to show that preposition-stranding is incorrect is "Where is the library at?". This sentence is absolutely incorrect, but not because it ends with a preposition. It is incorrect because "at" is not needed. To see this, simply rearrange the sentence by putting "where" after "at", as in "The library is at where?" Doesn't make sense, does it? If you asked the question this way, you would omit "at", and so it is not necessary. However, if I instead asked "Which building is the library in?", that would be perfectly acceptable.

By the way, though the first answerer is correct in his/her conclusion, I need to point out that neither of the first two sentences given as examples actually ends with a preposition. Though "up" and "in" can be used as prepositions, they are not prepositions the way they are used in those two sentences, but are instead adverbs. Also, in the third sentence, though "with" is a preposition, "up" is not. The way you can tell is that a preposition always has an object, somewhere in the sentence, even if it's not immediately after the preposition.

Here are some better examples of grammatically-correct English sentences that end with prepositions:

What are you talking about? ("about" is the preposition, "what" is the object)

That's the girl I'm going out with. ("with" and "that")

What are you looking at? ("at" and "what")

Put this back where you got it from. ("from" and "where (you got it)")

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_shouldn't_you_end_a_sentence_with_a_prepositio n#ixzz1aIb8ZEqq

Best,

Mike

[Francis Morin]

This thread has been hijacked and gone twice around the world now so:

"Is it acceptable to end a sentence in a preposition?"

From Wikipedia / Wiki Answers:

Yes. It is perfectly acceptable.

There is a very common misunderstanding that, in proper English grammar, one should never end a sentence with a preposition (of, at, on, in, etc.).

It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with a preposition, as long as that preposition is critical to the meaning of the sentence.

I am Edmond Weiss, author of of the book referred to as Writing Remedies, but which is actually called 100 Writing Remedies. Although this book does contain the passage "Do not end a sentence with a preposition," in fact I never wrote that sentence. What I wrote was: A preposition is a word you should not end a sentence with. The young copy editor at Oryx Press did not get the joke, replaced my sentence with the one you quoted, and refused to follow my instructions to put things back. There is not now, nor has there ever been, any rule against ending an English sentence with a preposition.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_prep osition#ixzz1aIaDUfMh

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_proper_grammar_to_end_a_sentence_with_a_prep osition

Addtionally:



Some sentences do properly end with a preposition The learnèd fools set you up. Do not give in. This phony rule is nothing we must put up with. Latin sentences may not end with a preposition, but it is perfectly correct in English.

There is nothing grammatically incorrect, at least in the English language, about ending a sentence with a preposition. Technically, this is referred to as "preposition stranding", and it occurs any time a preposition and its object are separated, not just at the end of a sentence (Note, the separation of the preposition and its object must be by more than an adjective or two to qualify as preposition stranding: "with a sunny disposition" is not preposition stranding. Also, preposition stranding usually involves reversing the usual order, i.e., placing the object somewhere before the preoposition.) But wherever in the sentence it occurs, there is absolutely nothing wrong with preposition stranding. What is wrong is to rearrange a sentence in a way that makes it cumbersome or less understandable, all in an effort to follow this false rule.

One example sentence commonly (and deceitfully) used to show that preposition-stranding is incorrect is "Where is the library at?". This sentence is absolutely incorrect, but not because it ends with a preposition. It is incorrect because "at" is not needed. To see this, simply rearrange the sentence by putting "where" after "at", as in "The library is at where?" Doesn't make sense, does it? If you asked the question this way, you would omit "at", and so it is not necessary. However, if I instead asked "Which building is the library in?", that would be perfectly acceptable.

By the way, though the first answerer is correct in his/her conclusion, I need to point out that neither of the first two sentences given as examples actually ends with a preposition. Though "up" and "in" can be used as prepositions, they are not prepositions the way they are used in those two sentences, but are instead adverbs. Also, in the third sentence, though "with" is a preposition, "up" is not. The way you can tell is that a preposition always has an object, somewhere in the sentence, even if it's not immediately after the preposition.

Here are some better examples of grammatically-correct English sentences that end with prepositions:

What are you talking about? ("about" is the preposition, "what" is the object)

That's the girl I'm going out with. ("with" and "that")

What are you looking at? ("at" and "what")

Put this back where you got it from. ("from" and "where (you got it)")

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_shouldn't_you_end_a_sentence_with_a_prepositio n#ixzz1aIb8ZEqq (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_shouldn%27t_you_end_a_sentence_with_a_preposit ion#ixzz1aIb8ZEqq)

Best,

Mike Hey, I only know what the Nuns beat into us in English composition. Sister Cecelia obres de cojones de laton (not Latin) often quoted the fat Limey PM-- "An umbrella is something out with which I shall not go in a rainstorm" (A common place event in The Big Foggy I hear tell- Now Mae West- de las grandes tetons-- always ended her sentences with a proposition- but she wasn't a Nun, now was she--:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[Bill Murphy]

The original subject of this thread went to hell when the BHE .410 Repro was overlooked by a few dozen buyers who have wanted one since 1988 and would have given it a good home for twelve grand. "Hijacked" better refers to the BHE .410 than it does to this thread. We should be more observant.

[Bruce Day]

May I suggest that both Francis and Bill get together off alone for a week someplace, perhaps with shotguns up in the north woods. I'm sure they can work something out over a week of close continual contact.

[Robert Delk]

Well,I have been looking for a .410 that sold around here in the late 1960's for 30 years and even knowing who bought it was no real help as he was a traveling man.The gun has now been located but I don't think I have a chance of getting it even with the owner not really knowing what she has. Asking price back then was $700.

[Robin Lewis]

Wow, that was a great buy even back then. A new Winchester Model 70 featherweight listed for $130.00 in my 1961 Shooter;'s Bible, today they are around $800 on www.winchesterguns.com (http://www.winchesterguns.com). So, when that 410 sold, it was about the price of seven model 70's.

At today's prices, seven of them would cost about $5,600 and we all know that isn't going to buy a Parker 410 in any grade. Either that was an extreamly great value back in the day or Parkers have done very well since then. Maybe both but I'll bet its more of the latter.

[Robert Delk]

Gun came into the store and sold the same day to a "carny.". I came in the next day and heard about it. He died several years ago and his real estate sold a couple of years ago but the family kept the gun and all his other antiques.They have plenty of money and smarts and I don't think I can afford it if they ever put a price on it. I can't tell you how much effort I expended to finally get a look at this gun. They did let me buy his stash of lumber and a Delta unisaw.

[Francis Morin]

May I suggest that both Francis and Bill get together off alone for a week someplace, perhaps with shotguns up in the north woods. I'm sure they can work something out over a week of close continual contact. I live in MI- West central area (NE kent County) so to me, "northwoods" might mean across the Big Mac bridge into our UP.
I surmise that Bill lives in MD. so perhaps, to him, northwoods" might mean the Poconos.

I have no idea if Bill enjoys waterfowl and turkey hunting with shotguns, and deer (also coyote, bear and feral hogs) with a 30-06, as I do. I do appreciate your using the generic term "shotguns" rather than tying it down to only Parker shotguns. My "go-to- or "money on the line" shotguns have always been my Model 12 Winchesters. To use a golfing analogy- they are the putters in my bag of 14--where you "put for the dough"-- the side-by-sides are the drivers-- where you 'drive for show"--

I appreciate your "Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match" approach Bruce, but I think it would be better if I look Bill up when Mae and I are out in MD next time- and I'll stand him to a pint O'Guinness with a shot O'Bushmills- no irishman can turn that deal down...:whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Bruce Day]

Sounds like a date. Let us know how it turns out.

[Christopher Lien]

"May I suggest that both Francis and Bill get together off alone for a week someplace, perhaps with shotguns up in the north woods. I'm sure they can work something out over a week of close continual contact."
______________________________________

Sounds like Bruce speaks from personal experience, perhaps that's how he and Charlie Herzog became so close, off alone for a week someplace, perhaps with shotguns up in the north woods, and working things out with close continual contact...

Good luck Francis, it will be interesting to see Murphy's response to matchmaker Bruce's suggestion of a "date"... Maybe you can show Bill your GrandDad's two illusive AAHE 12-Bores that we've heard so much about over these past 3 years?...

Best, CSL
_____________________________________
.

[Francis Morin]

I have never met Charlie Herzog, but I have long surmised that he and Colonel Bruce Day are good friends. How that came about I cannot say. I have had the pleasure of speaking with Bruce a few times on our cell fones, but have not yet met him. I had hoped to do so in June 2010, when I attended my first "Yooper Shoot", but Bruce had to bow out at the last moment, as some storm damage in KS had nearly demolished part of his house there.

One point of correction- nothing to do with grammar or snytax, but my late Grandfather's two 12 bore Parkers are Grade 6 guns- AH(E), not the next higher grade, AAH(E) or grade 7 as you surmised. They were his live bird and game guns- like me today, he favored the 12 bores, although he and my Dad gave a me 20 gauge M12 (28" mod) on my 12th Birthday. By age 15 I was shooting 12 gauge guns exclusively, except the 30 for rabbits and squirrels.

You raise a fair point, and I try to pay extra close attention to any especially made by LIFE members here, as that indicates a serious commitment, at least to me. If Mae and I drive out, and as we are both serious history buffs, and there are so many sites in MD etc. from the War of Nawthern Aggression that ripped apart our land for four years, we may well do that, I will bring one of the two AH grade guns and allow Bill to look it over to his heart's content- shooting it- that might be a 'whole 'nother ballgame', we shall see.

Howsome-ever, if we fly out. all bets are canceled- I'd trust a politician before I'd entrust the airlines and the TSA goons with any valuable gun. Fair enuf???:cool::cool:

[Dave Suponski]

Francis,That is phones....not fones. Do you have spell check?

[Francis Morin]

I can just barely figure out the keyboard and all the ALT Ctr! and other "bells and whistles" You are correct- the proper spelling is phones- as in telephones. But spell check does not correct all errors, does it? If I were to computer-type this-- "I told you to bring that over here"! A-OK by the computer. how about this version-- "I told you to bring that over hear"!- I'll betcha a flat of RST 12 lites the spell check would give both sentences a passing grade--

But we all learn differently, that is for sure. Here's an example. The other day i called Cabela's to order a video game that works through a TV set- a "Buck Hunt" for my oldest grandson-- the Lady handling the order asked me: "Is that for we?"" I replied-- "No M'am, it's for my grandson, but you can send it to me please- and beisdes, I added, you mean "Us" don't you?" Turns out she was talking about some new gizmo named Wii but pronounced "We" or "Wee- as in Willie Winkie- I don't know--

Anyway, enjoy the Pulasli days. Have taken 4 geese and a Tom turkey from a favorite area farm over the balmy past week-end- two of the geese and the turkey go to the farm family, she is Polish- and makes the best kapusta I have ever eaten- she's going to roast the geese in sauerkraut, and he will have the turkey (about 19 lbs. with feathers still on) smoked-

[Bruce Day]

Well, Chris, that's not how Charlie and I became good friends. Its more of a mutual respect and helping each other out and coming through and performing when asked to do something for the PGCA. We agree on many subjects. And not being snarky with each other.

And as for Francis, I have spoken with him, and yes I believe he really has a couple A grades. I've not seen him say anything about having AA grades. He is very cautious about posting photos and is wary of some people, not necessarily PGCA members, who lurk here. Although Francis has his own style and does go on, I believe he is a stand up, trustworthy, smart guy, who adds variety and color to this forum. As for his misspellings, we all missppell and I think that may just be his style.

[charlie cleveland]

congratulations on that tom turkey and the geese...charlie

[Christopher Lien]

"Well, Chris, that's not how Charlie and I became good friends. Its more of a mutual respect and helping each other out and coming through and performing when asked to do something for the PGCA. We agree on many subjects. And not being snarky with each other.

And as for Francis, I have spoken with him, and yes I believe he really has a couple A grades. I've not seen him say anything about having AA grades. He is very cautious about posting photos and is wary of some people, not necessarily PGCA members, who lurk here. Although Francis has his own style and does go on, I believe he is a stand up, trustworthy, smart guy, who adds variety and color to this forum. As for his misspellings, we all missppell and I think that may just be his style."
-------------------------------------------------------

Well, Bruce, It's interesting to know you two fellas have such a special relationship of helping each other out and coming through and performing when asked, and it's good you and Charlie are not too snarky with each other. I'm sure things will continue to go well for you both in all your future adventures together... Perhaps one day soon you can get Francis to meet you and Charlie in the north woods for (as you say) "a week of close continual contact", and you boys can help Francis figure out whether he has a pair of AH or AAHE's???....

As for Francis and his rare pair of Parker's, yes he did refer to them as AAHE's repeatedly when he came upon the scene here in 2008, his mention of them as "two 12 bore AAHE Parkers" in the link below (where Bruce was an active participant) is just one of many such examples... Hope this helps both Bruce & Francis remember... I'm sure if Mr. Morin were to post a few images of his rare pair of Parker's, the collective knowledge base here could certainly help him determine what grade they actually are...

http://parkerguns.org/archive/parkergun/forums/forum1/5228-4.html

Best, CSL
________________________________
.

[Bruce Day]

Chris, thank you and we look forward to having you join us.

Look, I have never met Francis, he told me personally in a phone call that he has two AH grade Parkers, and he came up with a plausible explanation. I don't think he is the out and out liar type, that's all. Francis, if you want to send me, Dean or John or a couple other trusted people photos, we'll post them in a way that it doesn't get back to you directly if you feel a need to keep low key about it. You don't have to know how to e mail photos, e post or anything. Just take them with a cheap camera and send them to me via U S mail, and I can deal with it.

[Christopher Lien]

No thanks Bruce, Not my idea of a good time, you boys can have the north woods all to yourselves...

I'll be busy bird Hunt'n in the West with my Parker's...

Francis you can also send some photos of your rare AH/AAHE? Parker pair to me, i'll post the images for you and say they belong to Bill Murphy, so No one will ever know the AH's actually reside with you... I'm sure Murph will be ok with that...

Best, CSL
____________________________________
.

[Bill Murphy]

Chris' link sure brought back some memories. I think I'll go pop a couple of Tylenols.

[Christopher Lien]

You got me chuckling Bill, I had a feeling when I posted that link you might get lost in that "long winded" thread for a while... It got me too, I was rubbing my eyes for an hour after reading through some of it...

Best, CSL
__________________

[Bruce Day]

Well Chris, I appreciate your best regards. You'll be pleased to know that a couple of us were just recently thinking about hunting out west with our Parkers. So let me know and I'm sure we can get together , particularly if you have some good bird ground.

I have good ground to hunt in Montana, Wyoming, Nevada and in Sutter and Yuba Counties in Cal, but nothing in Idaho, so you could be a major help for there.

Bruce Day, new Parker collector

[Francis Morin]

Chris, I do make typos and miss-spelling errors, as we all do. How does the saying go- "If the Good Lord planned us to be perfect, why do we have erasers on pencils still today?"" As a lad, I knew my Granddad had two fine 12 Parkers, but I didn't pay all that much attention to them, or even his hammer 12 Purdey-- I didn't know an island lock from Long island.

I am sure I was in error if I had indeed written AAH or even A-1 Special, Granddad loved the A-1 steak sauce and often call his Parker of the day his A-1 birdgun-- they both are grade 6- thank you Parker Brothers for using a number grading system, with exception of the Trojan and Vulcan grades of course. I thought the two 12 Trojan grades I have owned were the same Parkers as his- not until later on did I begin to see the difference.

I have, hopefully, learned a lot from all the members on the PGCA, and still have more to learn. One thing concerns market values of Parkers and other high quality firearms- do a market search and check the auction sites to see prices for guns comparable to yours. I believe my Granddad's guns would be worth waaaaay more if they were 20 or 28 gauge, rather than 12- they don't have ventilated ribs or beavertailed forearms, and show some honest wear, just like my Model 12's and lower grade LC Smith 12's--

Had I realized the "strum und drang" my apparent mistaken description of them when I first joined the PGCA, I might better have not said anything- said with the wisdom of 20-20 hindsight.

Bruce- thank you for your kind words. I respect any man who has put his life on the line in combat to keep our Country safe- no matter what branch of the Military or whether he was an O-6, as you were, or an E-6 in my case. I also appreciate your efforts to further Boy Scouting and your leadership in that fine organization, as well as your club's fund raisers to fight Cystic Fibrosis. I hold you in the same highest regard as I do John Dunkle, who, with his wife, set up Renwish to provide aid to a Country that always seems to get the proverbial "short end of the stick". There are, I am sure, many other members of our PGCA, both Forum, Annual and Lifers as are you and John, who also do good works and ask no recognition for that.

Now, let's let the 'sleeping dogs lie- or is that lay?'- and move ahead to grow our membership in the PGCA- as a team!!:bigbye::bigbye:

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Well hell, Did that 410 repo sell at 29000 ? How many did they make? I am not a repo man but the gun sounds interesting, Bill I was in Cantilly when I got to see the AHE 410 made by Parker Bros I believe it is the only one! It was under a table and it was not in high condition but! I was told the owner paid 115000 for it. It was beautiful in it's day. Gary

[Bill Murphy]

Who had the .410 AHE under the table? I haven't heard about it since it sold at auction.

[Bill Murphy]

I looked at the link for the BHE 0000 frame .410 Repro. The pictures of the BHE are still there, but the description has been changed to a "Custom engraved 3 barrel set A-1 Special". I wonder where the BHE is? Gary, do you have some information that it was sold for $29,000? There is no evidence of a 3 barrel A-1 Special except in the description. I think this fellow has lost track of what he really has.

[Eric Eis]

Who had the .410 AHE under the table? I haven't heard about it since it sold at auction.

Bill,
When we we in Chantily for the PGCA meeting and I had the skeet guns displayed, the man that bought the gun came up to me and we talked for about an hour or so, he wanted to use some of my old shell boxes and catalogs for a photo shoot with that 410. He did come up to the suite that evening with his son but he was very tight lipped about the gun.

[Francis Morin]

Bill,
When we we in Chantily for the PGCA meeting and I had the skeet guns displayed, the man that bought the gun came up to me and we talked for about an hour or so, he wanted to use some of my old shell boxes and catalogs for a photo shoot with that 410. He did come up to the suite that evening with his son but he was very tight lipped about the gun.- Tight lipped- golly gee whiz, I wonder why so!! Did he have an armed bodyguard with him? If he left an AHE .410, no matter the condition or number of barrels sets in a hotel room unguarded- not a wise move. A friend of a friend told me the BATF is starting to monitor the "high-end" gun shows and events such as "Da Southern", "The Vintagers" etc- incognito I should guess, but as I trust the BATF like i trust either the SEC, IRS or Bernie Madoff's family-- best to beware, or as Col. Day phrased it- Wary!!:bigbye::bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

Eric, send me an email about what you know about the fellow. Thanks. wilmrph@verizon.net

[Marvin Kells]

The seller apparently got frustrated by the gun not selling at his $26,000 asking price, so now he's bumped it to $29,000.00. That ought to do it.

I better buy it quick before it goes up again! :eek:

Too Late! It is up to $55,000 now!

I guess calling a BHE and A1-Special is worth quite a lot!

http://www.gunsinternational.com/PARKER-A-1-SPCL-RARE-410-GA-1-OF-5.cfm?gun_id=100189507

[Bill Murphy]

And he still has the picture of the BHE in the ad. He's just having fun.

[billie bryant]

I looked at the link for the BHE 0000 frame .410 Repro. The pictures of the BHE are still there, but the description has been changed to a "Custom engraved 3 barrel set A-1 Special". I wonder where the BHE is? Gary, do you have some information that it was sold for $29,000? There is no evidence of a 3 barrel A-1 Special except in the description. I think this fellow has lost track of what he really has.

bill the BHE sold for full price & the 3 barrel A1 spcl. is from bobs collection also, granddad has quite a few combos, along with a very nice 410/28 purdy combo that will be listed this year? thanks, robert

[billie bryant]

Strangely enough, that philosophy is often very effective. My mother would resort to that tactic in her antique shop if a particular iten sat in the shop too long.

Bump the price significantly and it will often sell quickly.

Some people just don't think they are getting something of value unless they pay a lot :shock:

haha! i love the the good natured banter & outlook on these auction prices but i am very surprised the BHE 410 sold so CHEAP??

[billie bryant]

Paul, Petersen provenance is less important than the fact that Petersen's guns are the cream of the crop in some cases. Visit the NFM and you will wonder how he accumulated his guns. It seems like one man couldn't possibly do it. I have not seen the Petersen Automotive Museum, but it is probably the same "cream of the crop" type of collection.

bill you hit the nail on the head! bob after about 3 yrs. collecting guns went to a different level as he decided if it was not perfect, rare & had provenance he would pass? his machine gun collection was best in world & he was a tue gentleman when he passed, as 85% of collection went to NRA & winchester museum & rest went to auctions?

[billie bryant]

Bill,

I totally agree with you about Bob Peterson. He was a one of a kind collector and gentleman. He also had the financial where with all to purchase the best & most special of everything. This BHE .410 repro being one of them. It's quite possibly the nicest and one of the rarest of the Parker repro's.

The point that I was trying to make was that Bob is very well known to us now, but how many will truly remember him a generation from now?

As far as the gun goes:
We all know what it sold for at auction just a few weeks ago and now it's the seller that is making a big deal out of it being ordered by Bob Peterson for his collection. When I read the ad I took it that the seller thinks the gun is worth over double what he paid for it because of the provenance. IMO the seller is just fishing hoping to find the right buyer that doesn't know or care that the gun was just hammered at auction for less than half of the asking price.

What is an acceptable profit margin and where does the line get drawn for being ripped off? Only each of as indivduals can answer that question for themselves. If someone buy's this gun at the asking price and is good with it so am I & I wish them the best.

One thing for sure though is the internet has changed the game considerably. A few years ago we wouldn't have know instantly the auction sale price or would we be having this discussion about it.

I just wish one of the members here would have won the auction and been able to put the gun in his collection. Then we would have been congratulating him for winning it, rather than talking about someone trying to hit a home run profit wise.
i understand how you must feel but i knew & hunted with bob over the years in africa & here & have quite a few of his guns, i am not a dlr. but a hunter & collector & yes i sold 410 for for asking price but it is amazing i do not know for sure but i believe it has sold again for a 3500 dollar profit? i have lost on some of my guns & others done well but i do not mind someone making any amount of profit as we all have paid too much for something in this hobby? but you are totally correct in your assesement of bob petersen he was a true gentleman & marge his wife was a great lady also!

[billie bryant]

I believe that as long as the seller is not misrepresenting the guns he should ask for them what he thinks he can get for them. If he makes a mistake at an auction and pays too much for a gun he will probably be the one to take the financial whipping. If he makes a good deal at an auction I don't see that it obligates him to sell at less than he can get for the gun.

I have owned a small business for twenty nine years and have fielded many questions from individuals about prices being high. When it came time to make Friday payroll or pay the note at the bank I noticed I was always alone and on my own. The selling price is independent of what the product cost the seller in my opinion.

Best,

MikeMIKE: thank you ! i sincerely apprciate hearing someone explain it as i have always felt? i like you worked hard all my life & was lucky enough to know & workfor bob petersen for quite afew yrs. before i started my own comp. & being successful has had it,s advantages when it comes to my favorite hobby in the world hunting & collecting!the lil BHE 410 went to a great home for what i was aking & then just a few days ago went to a better home? thanks, billie

[billie bryant]

Kenny, I don't know when the auction ends, but your bid is way less than the gun is worth. Some of those guns have sold in the twenties. This is my dream gun, but I don't have time to fool with it, but I think you should. Go for it. Go up to the low twenties without any fear of losing money.

well said bill, i sincerely thought i was going to have to go into the twentys to own it? when it stopped at 10,000 i felt very lucky as i have lost alot thinking the same on other guns!haha! i believe we all have?

[Bill Murphy]

Mr. Bryant, when my schedule or checkbook prevents me from participating, I can only give "sage advice". Sage advice in this case was "go into the twenties and you will be pleased". This gun is still my dream gun and I would purchase it from its present owner if he feels generous.