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View Full Version : No. 87237 where are you?


Don Kaas
08-26-2009, 02:11 PM
I just picked up #87238. A CH from 1897 with 30" Titanic barrels and a straight grip. The gun is in the book as such and the gun just before it has a identical configuration. These are two rather early fluid steel barreled C grades. Two guns with straight grips and the then brand new "black barrels" in Grade 4 (another 30" CH 12g is alongside them but with a pistol grip) not the most common of late 19th Century Parkers...I've sent Mark a request for a letter...it would be too silly to think they might be proper "pair". Anyway, without 87237 poor lonely 87238 could never be a pair of anything:rolleyes:

Dean Romig
08-26-2009, 02:59 PM
Don, what sort of butt treatment does that CH have?

"Rather early fluid steel barrels" You're right on that account as 1897 was the year Titanic barrels first made their appearance. In Fact, a CH may have been the first grade to sport Titanic barrels as Acme barrels didn't make their appearance until a bit later as I recall.

George Lander
08-26-2009, 03:55 PM
Don: I have SN 92373 an 1899 CH 12 gauge that was originally shipped with 32 inch Bernard Steel barrels but went back to Parker in 1904 for a set of 32 inch Titanic Steel barrels. How early were they fitting Titanic Steel barrels? I have both sets of barrels for mine although the Bernard set were cut to 28 inches. My gun also has a straight handed stock and is on a No. 2 frame. My Parker letter states that it was ordered by W. Frank Irwin of Cherokee Iowa on July 28, 1899 & shipped to him on September 13, 1899 according to Order Book #47. It was returned to Parker on April 16, 1901 to "take dents out of barrels, clean & rebrown, blue all iron parts, nickel triggers, make RH trigger pull 4 pounds and tighten action NO CHARGE" according to Order Book #53.
The order also states: "Make guard same as grade 5 or 6" and "He is to use gun and talk Parker for three years and it is his gun".

It was returned again by W. Frank Irwin c/o Sportsman St. Louis, MO on January 16, 1904 to fit "12 gauge 32 inch Titanic Steel barrels to shoot 10" high, retarget and clean out old barrels, and set trigger pull at RH 3 1/2 pounds and LH 4 pounds" AGAIN THERE WAS NO CHARGE! According to Order Book #63. MY QUESTION IS:

Do you or does anyone here know anything about W. Frank Irwin? He must have been a favourite around Parker Brothers in that it looks like he was given a free gun and free upgrades & repairs. Any information would be appreciated.
Best Regards, George

Don Kaas
08-26-2009, 06:17 PM
George- I have never come across Mr. Irwin but I am sure someone has. It does sound like your gun got a lot (!) of use by Mr. I in only 19 months. Titanic were first fit in mid 1897.
Dean- the CH had a skeleton BP which is now missing. I think a DH was the first Ti gun and a CH about 200 numbers before this gun had Titanics, if I recall TPS correctly.

bob valentine
08-26-2009, 06:22 PM
Don did you find that CH in Maine? If not I know where there is another one just like it.

Don Kaas
08-26-2009, 06:32 PM
It is from Down East...

Travis Sims
08-26-2009, 07:16 PM
Congrats.......
i too was watching that gun. Whats your plan with her, new wood and restore?

Dean Romig
08-26-2009, 11:52 PM
Congrats.......
i too was watching that gun. Whats your plan with her, new wood and restore?

Nooooo . . . :eek:

Don Kaas
08-27-2009, 09:40 AM
From a quick review of The Book this morning, it would appear that this gun was the 5th Titanic Grade 4 made being the 3rd of a batch of 3 as mentioned above. I looks to be within the first dozen or so Titanic guns produced the first indeed being a DH.

My plans for the gun? Barrel blue, bend the stock up, fix a few screws and figure out what to do about the butt...and then have a beater for the blind...I have a 34" Acme barreled CHE being re-stocked that will be finished in a couple of weeks that looks like this seasons #1 duck picker (Destry got a 34" DHE therefore I had to get a 34" CHE which means Russ will come up with a 34" BHE...this is how it goes around here...)

bob valentine
08-27-2009, 07:29 PM
If it is in fact the one I knew of, the barrels needed some serious rust removal from the lobersterman treatment and the Buttplate was missing, I myself thought it was a great find and would have made a great companion to my 75228, Oh well, that's how it goes. If these were everywhere what fun would the hunt for them be, Post some pics when it is done I am a big "C" fan, and am never bored of looking at pics of them, Doesn't make me a bad person I hope? To the hunt I say.... (raise glass of favorite something here) Bob V

Don Kaas
08-31-2009, 09:48 AM
I noticed in TPS that 87237 was a display gun at the 1898 Boston show. It is listed there as a DH 12/30"/straight but I suspect this is a typo. So much for the "pair" thought, however but it does make 87237 just a bit more interesting. Perhaps, my 87238 was already on the lobster boat or dispatching handlined Atlantic halibut in a dory on The Banks...

Don Kaas
09-01-2009, 04:48 PM
Well, I picked up the gun this morning. Bob V. was right. It is a rat. The pictures on AA did not do it justice- it is much worse. A fine gun abused, mistreated and left to decay. Clearly, it has seen its share of deadly salt water service on the New England coast. It probably has taken its share of blackheads, blackies and "coots" while the swirling mists and sprays of the Gulf of Maine enveloped both gun and gunner. It appears to be just on this side of "restorable"...I seriously thought of sending it back and resolved to do so-why bother with it? I've had C grades before and have a nice Acme 34" CHE...I bemoaned my lack of luck on Parkers lately:banghead:. Then a hour later, I received Mark's information from the Stock and Order Books and the mists parted just a bit and the pits did not seem quite so deep... It seems old 87238 and 87237 were in fact a bit of "a pair". They were two identical CHs ordered in 1897 simply to be "build like McAlpin gun" (Geo. McAlpin of NYC was a well known and heeled gentleman pigeon shooter). The men who ordered them, also well known gentlemen trap shootists of their time, were a father and son, Capt. A.W. and Mr. Noel Money. In Parker's tradition of getting its guns in hands of influential shooters on advantageous terms, the guns were discounted 50% to $75 each and shipped to the Moneys c/o EC Powder Co., Oakland, Bergen Cty.,NJ in December of 1897. My gun 87238 was returned to Parker Bros. one year later by Capt. Money, Noel having returned his earlier (it then shows up on the Parker Bros. stand at the Boston Exposition that year). The Captain's gun then went on to serve a number of other owners who are recorded in the annals of the Gun Works. I'd like to think younger son, Harold "the Shootinest Gent'man" Money might have picked up Pahpah's gun once or twice too during the year it lived with the Captain... This history doesn't make the gun's condition any better or lessen the cost of refurbishing that which can be refurbished but it makes the task seem somewhat more worthwhile. So, children, that's how I ended up with "Bluerock's" Parker CH...what are the odds on that?:)

Dean Romig
09-01-2009, 05:33 PM
Every Parker has a story Don - yours approaches the "Fabled" category. Congratulations on your purchase. Let's see some pictures when it's done.

Destry L. Hoffard
09-01-2009, 07:03 PM
A gun actually owned by "Blue Rock" himself, the mind just runs wild......

Destry

Travis Sims
09-01-2009, 07:17 PM
Congrats.......
i too was watching that gun. Whats your plan with her, new wood and restore?

Nooooo . . . :eek:


Good luck with it Don! I know you'll have it looking great in no time!

Christopher Lien
09-01-2009, 07:17 PM
Once again interesting history has tipped the scales in favor of keeping a questionable Parker... Just goes to show, never underestimate the appeal of unique provenance when it comes to old doubles... Great find Don...

The next thing you know O'l Murphy will surface with the (Long-Lost) rare Curtis designed Parker Try-Gun that Louis Parker and Dupont Powders professional shooter Jack Fanning had a hand in... Actually shooting these old Parker's rates number 1, but researching their history often runs a close second... And the hunt continues.....

Best, CSL
__________________________
http://www.webpak.net/~dslcslien/1AWmoney1.jpg
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Don Kaas
09-01-2009, 07:49 PM
You are right, Chris, best lucky find since some guy in Idaho found an original Schreiber photograph of some dudes shooting pigeons in Philadelphia circa 1878.

I measured the barrels and stock dimensions when I got home tonight. .740" bores, chokes .022/.032, .140" over the 2 3/4" chambers and MBWT of +.040 over the rest of the tubes. Interestingly in this early fluid steel Parker-there is no "T" in a circle stamp on the flats, just "Titanic Steel" on the rib. Stock measures zero cast, 13 3/4" lop to end of wood. It would go 14" with its missing SSBP. 5 1/4' butt height. Drop 1 1/4" x 2 1/4" (can you say late 19th century pigeon gun?) No wood needed (f/e is pretty nice) just a repair to a small(ish) crack in the wrist. To do list- Salvage barrels cosmetically, serious cosmetic work on action and a bit of re-engraving by Maitre Gournet. It also appears the top lever was "replaced" and the fit is poor so we'll need to attend to that...Unlike classic car restorations(my former vice) all is not possible (even given sufficient $) with classic guns.

Christopher Lien
09-02-2009, 08:57 AM
Don, Lets not forget another lucky find of an early (HIGH-DOLLAR-$1K)
Kimble/Kleintz score card found by a guy from illinois, which eventually
found it's way to Vienna, Georgia... ;)

"Drop 1 1/4" x 2 1/4" ~ definitely shootable dimensions... I Look forward to seeing it when finished.

Best, CSL

Ed Blake
09-02-2009, 09:59 AM
Don - what does the forend loop look like on the barrels? Is it the one piece loop like the BT forends use? My live bird gun has that feature and I understand it was a popular option with the pigeon shooters.

Don Kaas
09-02-2009, 10:15 AM
It is the standard loop on CH 87238. This gun pre-dates its introduction. It was standard on later high grade guns as well as most beavertails. I have never seen or heard of it mentioned in a letter for a C or below pigeon gun but I am sure someone must have specified one I have had atleast 6 early (pre-WWI) Parker C and D pigeon/trap guns and have handled many more and have not seen one. You are lucky. It is good feature and standard Parker loops come adrift with more frequency than many would like to admit. As an aside, early A.H. Fox 12 gauge Krupp steel barrelled guns have a similar one piece loop as standard but they stopped using it circa 1912-a retrograde step IMHO.

Ed Blake
09-02-2009, 10:41 AM
The gun is a D-grade from 1915. It also has the Parker SST, which the gun pre-dates. It must have gone back to Parker Bros. for a refit. I need to get a letter on it.

Don Kaas
09-02-2009, 02:37 PM
No repair records after 1919 and the SST and loop job would likely post date that but I think your theory is correct.

Bill Murphy
09-02-2009, 10:22 PM
Ed, a gun like that sure does need a letter. What is the serial number?

Ed Blake
09-02-2009, 10:45 PM
Bill - #171575