Parker or English?

[Theodore LeDurt]

I want a heavy hammer 10 gauge. Not an 8 or 9 lb gun, but a 10lb plus one. A friend located an E1 Parker 10, and I have to admit that this will be my first hammer gun and I'm not familiar with the Parker hammerguns, but the seller says there is very little color left on the barrels and action, yet the gun seems good and tight.

For a few shekels more an English 10 gauge Greener is also available in similar condition. When I purchased a 12 gauge there was no comparison as heavy 12 gauges are quite rare from the English and a Parker #2 frame, 32" gun over 8lbs, was perfect for waterfowling.

My question is, factoring in balance and quality which gun would be the better buy? I realize this is a Parker site and even broaching the subject may be tantamount to heresy, but I am looking for an honest assessment , given the limited details.

Thank you for any help.

[Bill Murphy]

A ten pound Parker Brothers ten gauge is usually on a #4 frame which is quite scarce and valuable in good condition. A Greener that meets your weight requirement would be as good a choice if in good condition. If not overused, I regard either to be of good quality and suitable for heavy shooting.

[charlie cleveland]

bill you gave the gentleman a good and honest information...i dont think he will go wrong with this info... thanks charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

Theodore,

If you want a 10 pound 10 gauge by all means buy one.

There are many of us who waterfowl with 1 1/4 to 1 3/8 oz Nice Shot or ITX 10 gauge loads with great success. For these a 9 pound gun is very much sufficient to absord the recoil. Please see the reloading section of this forum for more information.

I like my 10 pound guns but the 9 pounders are a little quicker to shoulder.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Theodore LeDurt]

Absorbing recoil is my concern. While Greener may of had his 96 to 1 rule, and that works fine for a standard lead load, my experience has led me to believe a 120 to 1 rule makes for a more comfortable shooting gun with waterfowl loads.

[Harry Collins]

Theodore,

What load do you intend to shoot? What size shell?

Harry

[David Dwyer]

Theorore
I have both a Parker Bros. and a Greener hammergun in 12 ga. I love them both, and find the workmanship excellent on each. They seemed to be priced about the same for comparable condition. I feel the Greener cross bolt is a stronger action but Parkers hold up just fine as evidenced by those of us that shoot thousands of rounds a year through one. Personally,I would pick the gun that fits you best.
David

[Theodore LeDurt]

Theodore,

What load do you intend to shoot? What size shell?

Harry

Three of us, have just purchased a reloader, but have not bought bushings or reloading components. We will be loading 2 7/8" shells with 1 3/8oz loads of ITX or E shot when available. This is the only decisions we have made so far.

I should mention that while formerly using an English pigeon grade 12 weighing 7lb 4oz, while it did not have much recoil with target lead loads, when shooting a 1oz load of Black Cloud, was uncomfortable to shoot, and removed skin on middle finger behind the trigger guard. This is what led to my decision to shoot heavier guns for waterfowl. Even many of the new autos exceed 8lbs, so I purchased a DH 12ga, my first Parker, that weighs in at 8lb 6oz. Still desiring a long range gun, and missing a 10ga, has led to the decision to go with a hammer 10.

[Mark Ouellette]

Theodore,

I hunt primarily with an EH 10 Hammerless weighing a mere 9 lbs 3 oz. With 1 3/8 oz Nice Shot at 1200 fps it is deadly on Canada Geese at over 60 yards. Please know that those 60 yard shots were measured over decoys. I would not attempt shooting that far for pass shooting.

I think my trusty EH or even my 10+ pound Parkers would recoil too much if I were to shoot Black Cloud. BC is pretty fast steel shot and to me, best suited for an autoloader that softens the “felt recoil”. BC and other modern steel loads seem to have very sharp recoil from a fixed breach gun. This probably is property of the burn rate of the powders they use.

I have also used 1 1/8 oz Nice Shot at 1200 fps in a 12 gauge 7 and a half pound LC Smith. This combination killed geese cleanly over those same 60 yard decoys.

My 10 and 12 gauge waterfowl loads are low pressure starting at 6500 psi plus 1500 psi for the hardness of the Nice Shot. Neither the 10 nor 12 gauge recoil sharply. I feel a push rather than a punch. As stated, they are very deadly on big geese.

Please see the reloading threads where we 10 gauge guys discuss our loads. No one ever mentions excessive recoil.

For what it’s worth,
Mark

[E Robert Fabian]

Theodore I shoot a 9.5 lb. 10 ga. gun and there is little felt recoil with the Sherman Bell loads. I've shot 1.5 and 1 5/8 oz. loads for water fowl and 13/8 and 1 1/4 oz. for crows very comfortable.
I like the adjustable shot powder bar on my ten reloader with a digital scale to confirm loads.

[Harry Collins]

I have a 10 gauge #2 frame lifter and a round of sporting clays with an 1 1/4 oz load will start to wear on me, however with the #4 frame D or #3 frame DH I can shoot a 1 1/4 oz 10 gauge load all day long. These loads are Sherman Bell's at 1200 fps plus or minus.

Harry

[Theodore LeDurt]

BFT Mark, what chokes do you have in the 10ga you mentioned? Thanks

[Mark Ouellette]

My trusty EH has constrictions of .030" and .032". I've never patterened it to determine the actual choke. It seems to shoot tight enough using Nice Shot.

Most of the dozen or so Parker 10 gauges which I have measured have constrictions near .030". I think the tightest Parker 10 gauge constriction which I've measured is .035". I do however have a couple LC Smith 10's with .050" constrictions with unmolested bores of .775".

[Austin W Hogan]

10 gauge guns on the three frame with 30 inch barrels generally weigh 9 to 9 1/4; there are some of that weight on two frames as well. You might find 9 1/2 with 32 inch barrels.
Orvis Manchester recently sold a 5 frame ten ; which was discussed here on the forum.
Going heavier than 9 1/4 in ten gauge probably requires a larger frame or longer barrels, which reduces the population available quite a bit.
I have a 9 pound 15 ounce 3 frame lifter, but it is a 32 inch 12 ga.

Best, Austin

[Harry Collins]

My grade 1 lifter has 30" barrels and has .030 in both.

The D and DH have 32" barrels. The D has .029 & .037. The DH has .035 & .034.

I load the right barrel of the 10 gauges with a Polywad SpredR load and sometimes the left barrel as well. I take a tray of WW 209 primers and mark them with a black Sharpie before dumping them out for reloading. With 1 1/4 oz loads I do not insert a 16 gauge card into the bottom of the SP-10 wad. I push the 12 gauge SpredR into the shot instead. It sure makes the old 10 gauge competative on the sporting clay course.

Harry

[Mark Ouellette]

Harry,

I have similar experiance using the BPI X-Spreader in my 10 pound 3 oz DH 10 gauge named "Big Friend Ten". It has .030" constrictions but with the magic X its is capable of dusting clay targets up close and personal.

I own a #5 Frame Grade 2 Lifter 10 gauge that weighs 12 lbs 3 oz. It was known to post respectable sporting clays scores for its former owner. I'll give it a try on the course when the Michigan snow melts.

I also recently acquired a #4 Frame Top Action (hammer) 10 gauge that weighs 10 lbs 7 oz. It needed a little work so I took it to Brad Bachelder for a little TLC. I do like that gun and look forward to shooting it.

Mark

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I'm envious of you boys and your #4 frame 10 gauges. All three of my Parker 10's are on #3 frames even the hammerless magnum. I can't use anything bigger than 2 ounce loads in it or the recoil will drive you into the ground. I've shot the 1 5/8 ounce stuff out of my D grade hammer and it seems to swallow them like good eating though do not consider that statement as any kind of a recommendation.


Destry

[Mark Ouellette]

Hammerless Magnum Parker 10 Gauge!

I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy
I'm not worthy

Let's just call it a mutual envy :)

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I'm very proud of it and it's a sure killer on geese. One of the few times I ever bought a Parker and felt like I could make money on it. Murphy has one that will rival mine that I'd buy if he was selling.....

DLH

[Bill Murphy]

My big #6 frame hammerless ten weighs 13 pounds, 8 ounces, has 3 1/2" chambers, probably from the factory. It cannot be proven as factory because it is a late fluid steel factory rebarrel, no records available. It may predate the first factory 3 1/2" ten gauges. I have no idea why anyone would specify a ten gauge gun that heavy unless the "new" 3 1/2" ammunition threw a scare into waterfowlers. Maybe Dave Noreen can tell us when the 3 1/2" Super-X ammunition was introduced.

[Mark Ouellette]

Wasn't the 3 1/2" ten gauge introduced by Ithaca?

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Murphy,

I've always had in my mind your gun probably started life as an 8 gauge and went back for those 10 gauge barrels when the 8 gauge was outlawed for fowling. Do the serial numbers on the gun hold up that idea?


Destry

[Bill Murphy]

I recently saw an ad for a UK nitro proved Parker hammer gun. The nitro proof was 2 1/4 ounces. Yup, Destry, the big ten was made as an eight gauge right up next to the ban. The eight gauge barrels are missing. I would buy a ruined eight gauge gun to get the barrels to use on this gun.

[Harry Collins]

You girls make me want to spend money I don't have.....

[Dave Suponski]

I know Harry....They do this ALL the time.....:)

[charlie cleveland]

what a gun you would have bill ...a 2 barrel set parker with fluid steel 3 1/2 inch chambers and a set of 8 ga with 4 inch chambers...what a gun that would be....im like harry im dreaming way beyond my pocket book....and restrey your right several of them 2 ounce loads willtake there toll..... charlie

[Theodore LeDurt]

Next comparative Parker or English question. I've noticed that the early English hammer guns seem to have modern drop at the heel, while the Parkers and other early American doubles have excessive drop. Are most of you having stocks bent or just changing your shooting style? Thanks again. Mike

[Dean Romig]

Most are adapting to the gun. I find it pretty easy to adapt to a 3" DAH while some others simply can't, so they either restock their guns, or have their stocks bent, or stay away from guns with too much DAH for their physique.

[Dave Suponski]

Or raise the comb with a lace-on pad.

[Bill Murphy]

Most of my eights and tens have pretty modern dimensions. My experience in reading Parker orders is that most professional shooters and big bore waterfowlers knew about stock dimensions. My 1887 10 gauge pigeon gun, ordered by Parker shooter W.S. Perry has a drop of 2 1/4. Annie Oakley's guns are even straighter at 2 1/8. Two other graded exposed hammer competition type guns that I have letters for specify 2 3/4" drop. Of course, ungraded guns made for stock often have 3" of drop.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Theodore, get a 12ga 10lb gun such as a 34"Titanic D grade on a three frame recoil is very slight even when shooting three in shells. You can find them I believe John T has one!

[David Holes]

It seems like quite a few members here have a 4 frame. Just how rare are they? Did they get left in the duck blind?

[Mark Ouellette]

David,

Heavy guns such as Parkers with #4 Frames were typically for duck and goose hunting. Many of the old duck guns just were not cared for as they should have been. This includes not cleaning the bores or over cleaning and oiling the stock! If one finds a #4 Frame gun that is shootable or at least restorable it is somewhat rare. When we factor that into a small number built (someone with TPS handy please comment as to how many) the number of surviving #4 or larger frames get pretty small.

Mark

[Mike Franzen]

Both Greener and Parker are awesome Hammer Guns. I sold my Greener because of a personal preference for Parkers. Also, I can go to this board or Parker functions and talk to real experts about any aspect of the Parker gun. I'm not aware of Greener having anything like that. When shooting old guns I like knowing there is in depth, expert advice just a click away

[Bill Murphy]

My experience is that many or most #4 frame tens were built for pigeons. Many I have seen are provenanced to known competition shooters and are specified at 11 pounds and 32" barrels and in the higher grades. Does anyone know of a #4 frame gun in Zero Grade? I don't know of one below Grade 3. Three higher grade #4 frame top lever guns have 33" barrels, and all three of those were ordered at 11 pounds for known competition shooters. They were not duck guns. I do know of one big gun made for a competition shooter that was a waterfowl gun, but that is a "real" big gun.

[David Holes]

My 4 frame gun is a 30 inch, grade 2, with a duck on the lower frame. Its a lifter with the 1882 improvments. No checkering and a little under 11 lbs.

[Bill Murphy]

Do you have a PGCA letter on this gun? If you will share the letter with us, we may be able to tell you whether the purchaser was a duck hunter or a pigeon shooter.

[David Holes]

Bill, I really didn't think this gun was special enough to warrant a letter. This discussion has told me that it is somewhat rare, I didn't know. I have gotten 4 letters in the last year and only one led me to a well known shooter. I suppose this one would probably be a good one to get. The gun came from california and is in very good condition. The tubes inside and out are near perfect. and that surprises me.

[John Truitt]

Mr. Murphy,

I know of a grade zero or one 10 bore on a #4 frame with 32" barrels that resides in Virginia.
It appears to be a duck/goose gun for certain.
My old #4 frame grade 3 10 with 32" barrels was as yours a box bird gun.

Mr. Carmichael,

One day you and I will get together on that 34" #3 frame gun. I am just not ready yet. :), monetarily I mean.

[David Holes]

Bill, I recieved letter on said gun and reads as follows--Ordered by Howell and Glano in Cincinnati, Ohio on May 17, 1882 and shipped on July 25, 1882.Quality 2 hammer, 10 ga. Dam. 30 " lop 14.5 dah 3 wgt 11 pounds. The wood has obviously been replaced along the way. It has 4" dah. That is why there is no checking. As nice as the metal is I should probably get some new wood put on it. 3" dah works good but 4" is a little cumbersome for me. Have you heard of Howell and Glano?