Super Fox

[bob weeman]

Does anyone have the frame size measurements for the 12 guage super fox HE grade? It is bigger than the standard 12 but I do not know by how much. I know of an A grade Fox that has what seems to be a bigger frame, barrels and rib than the normal 12 guage. Thanks!

[Craig Larter]

A Super Fox frame measures 2.420 across the breech balls, a standard frame is 2.350. Some non-supers were built on the 2.420 frame but the bores are a standard .729, the customer was looking for a heavy gun. A couple supers were built on standard frames but they are overbored like a standard super. Depending on the period super were bored .750, .745, .740 or most common .738.

[charlie cleveland]

what was the average weight for a super fox.... charlie

[Austin W Hogan]

My impression of the Buckingham Super Fox that I examined at Julia's was that it felt like a three frame Parker. I did not measure the breech dimensions, Craig's dimensions indicate it is between a 2 and 3 frame. The extra weight between the hands is in the barrel taper.

The internal dimensions of the Super Fox are given below, with three Parker competition guns for comparison. The Super Fox has a longer taper merging the forcing cone with the barrel.

Best, Austin

[Craig Larter]

The early period guns 9 to 10lbs, the later guns 8 1/4 to 9lbs. The lightest I have recorded is 8lbs 2oz, the heaviest 10lbs 4oz.

[charlie cleveland]

thanks craig i would like to have one of those super fox but they seem to be out of my price range when i do see one for sale....seems like the smith is the only one i can afford well some day maybe....charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, keep your nose to the ground. Our posters Craig Larter, Bill Murphy, Destry Hoffard, Don Kaas, and others have found nice HE guns in the not too distant past. You should get in the car and go to some big side by side events. Some of these guns never made it to the internet. At least two were bought at the Vintagers in the past couple of years. I bought my last one in the parking lot of the Chantilly, VA gun show. They are where they are and they have not all come out yet.

[charlie cleveland]

will keep my nose to the ground and fingers crossed....will be going to a small auction in oxford miss...next week end maybe something will turn up...charlie

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I wish I'd have bought mine in the parking lot. I had to buy it through an online gun auction and paid painful money but I'm happy with it none the less.

Along about the same time I bought a WC Scott 16 gauge hammer double that's marked Bogardus Club Gun for a huge bargain on the same site. So even there, sometimes deals are to be had. The barrels are 30 inch cyl and cyl chokes, should be murder on doves early in the season.


Destry

[charlie cleveland]

that wc scott 16 ga should be some fun gun about september...have you used the fox on ducks yet....do the super fox seem to be choked as good as the lc smiths....have you shot a few of the heavy loads in the fox....i shot a few in the 3 inch lc smith i have but will stick with lower recoil loads mostly...except during turkey season wich aint to far off.... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Destry, your Super Fox is vastly superior to 99% of other standard Super Foxes. Many of us would have been glad to pay what you paid for that gun. Charlie, the best patterning gun with big shot that I have ever patterned was an overchoked standard bore 30" Philadelphia Fox. Unfortunately, the fellow I sold it to drilled it out. When it patterned so great, it had 3 1/4" chambers and about .042 and .043 of choke. I will measure the present chokes in that gun first chance I get. I have not patterned a Super with big shot yet.

[charlie cleveland]

bill sounds like that super fox of yours would have been a fine fine duck gun or a sure enough good turkey gun...the smith 3 inch i have is not full choke i have not measured it yet but a dime will slip down the barrels.....it patterns ok but wish the chokes were tighter...i like full or extra full guns the best....that fox you had would have suited me the way it came with those tight chokes....

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I've not fired the big Fox as of yet. It had a modern recoil pad on it but thankfully the stock hadn't been cut down. Picked up a repro buttplate for it that needs fitted before I do any serious shooting. Fits me a lot better at buttplate length, it's a little low in the stock so being that much further forward on the comb gives me a bit better view of the end of the tubes.

Picked up a case and a half of Kent TM 3 inch shells loaded with 1 1/2 of #1 shot. Will put a couple on paper and see how it throws the big stuff once the buttplate is in place.

My Parker magnum 10 gauge doesn't throw BB worth a damn nor the 2 1/4 ounce loadings of #2 either. But you feed it 2 ounces of #2 and it will hold them together a long way out.


Destry

[charlie cleveland]

hurry up and shoot thatbig super fox destrey...hope it eill put the whole load in a30 at 40 steps...isnt funny how our guns pattern looks like they would all shoot the same but most are as finnicky as a old 57 chev i still got...best patterning gun i have is a 10 ga lc smith shooting gauge mates in 12 ga using 3 inch rem no 5 shot..at 50 long steps it will average 13 shot in a pop can...most guns i have will only put 6 to 8 shot in the can and i have tried every gun i have from the 410 to the old 8 ga....makes me mad thet old 10 will out shoot my old 8 especially shooting a 12 ga shell in a 10 .... charlie

[Francis Morin]

Me too Charlie- I never weighed the 'project' 12 Fox HE I once owned, but I pattern tested it-it was Full in both barrels, and would obliterate pattern sheets at 45 yards and 36" circle- and shot right dead to POA.

I loved to use it off-season for crows and barn pigeons- like the tall birds the Limeys call "Archangels"--before steel shot became required, I shot the old Federal premium copper plated 3" No. 4's--my homage to my gunning hero- the late Nash Buckingham I guess. I was reloading 12 AA hulls, and they worked fine in my Model 12's- but that Fox was fitted so closely, that it would only close on factory new shells- once fired, whether reloaded or used as "snap caps"- the shell head may have expanded 0.0025" or less- and you could close it, but the top lever did not return to TDC--

I sold it- have an older 2E Smith that was rebarreled in 1927 with 32" Nitro Steel tubes, both Full choke and it has 3" chambers- but is NOT marked a LongRange- it's my favorite turkey and goose shotgun--and at 8 lbs. 4 oz. is a bit lighter than the Fox HE--

But if you ever win the PowerBall- I have a DU buddy who won a 12 HE that was "upgraded" by Pachmayr- August the patron came over from the Old Country- son Frank donated 50 of his father's personal shotguns to DU some years ago--one for each State- for a fund raiser/raffle- tickets were $100 a pop- and my friend won this fine gun- but putting false sidelocks on a boxlock, re-doing the buttstock in the more Germanic style, adding sling swivel clips, engraving the barrel breech and muzzle areas-- somewhat like the late Jack O'Connor's comment- something like wearing galoshes instead of Florsheims with a tuxedo--He would like to sell it- but he took a real bite in the kneecaps, as they valued it at $16,000.00 and he had to pay a capital gains tax on that--

Sooo- do you want a using HE Fox 12- or a "guilded lily"--?? Oh, by the way- that sweet 10 gauge Linder Daly with the 32" Krupp Flusstahl barrels has been sold- and me a day late and a dollar short again--

One advantage- IMO anyway- if you are a pass shooter on waterfowl (and crows and pigeons too) in having both barrels choked identically, especially with the two triggers I prefer on my double guns- you don't have to think about which barrel to shoot first- they are both the same--and I like to see my birds hit hard-:whistle::whistle::cool:

[charlie cleveland]

i would have to win the lottery to buy anything right now...hate you missed that 10 ga for i know what a day late and a doller short feel like....seems to be a whole lot of them here lately....but back to the super fox i believe these guns arenot traded as often as lc smiths...i wonder how many of the super fox were made... charlie

[Francis Morin]

I had been following that 10 bore Lindner Daly that was finally sold for about 3 years-But what the hey-- another less shell/ammo locker and maybe even hunting coat to buy, if I ended up with it--

It helps me- at 70 years and gainin'- to keep the shotgun ammo separate- easy for me- as I have only 12- 12 3" and steel, and 20 gauge- ditto hunting coats or vests--one for when I use the 20 ga. M12, the others for 12 gauge.

Just as you once posted about the 8 ga.-- I sure wish for the days before steel or non-toxic shot became the "law of the land"--as I would love to have a nice std. (not 3.5" mag like the big Ithaca doubles) 2.88" 10 with 32" Full choke barrels- turkeys and geese with Winchester copper Lubaloy no. 4, and the old Remington or CIL Canuck in No. 2 lead--and OO buck for the left tube sometimes--

I have shot a fair number of mallards and Canadas with the steel loads, and they work OK, today's loads are far better than when they first came out-But I still like the older paper hulls and guns made before WW2 the best-:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

Charlie, my tight patterning 3 1/4" Fox is a high condition Sterlingworth. Some guns should not be sold. My experience tells me that a long chambered Fox is not damaged by shooting steel shot. My friend has been shooting steel from his for years with no visible damage. Odd that you should mention a Krupp Daly ten. I sold a Krupp Daly Diamond Grade ten out of a gun store where I was working. The same fellow who owns the tight shooting Fox also now owns the Krupp Daly ten. He is a good friend who also has a collection of my father's guns, as well as a few more of mine. I am kind of an easy touch, but I am holding on to my old Krupp barrelled Daly eight.

[Greg Baehman]

...i wonder how many of the super fox were made... charlie

There were a total of 945 Super Foxes built.

[charlie cleveland]

945 super fox... they should have made a few more where some of us good have at least held one in our hands...have you ever used the krupp barrel 8 ga hunting bill... what are the chamber lenths in the 8 ga...plus weight....would like to try that 8 on a turkey with a load of no 2...ha ive learned that if i get rid or sell something i spend the money and aint got any thing to show for it...every body keep there barrels warmed up for life is a way to short... charlie

[Bill Murphy]

Most eights are 3 1/4" chamber, but my Greener Royal is nitro proofed for 3 3/4" shells and 2 1/2 ounces of shot. I have not yet shot game with the Daly or the Greener. However, the geese are flying lower over the house every day.

[charlie cleveland]

bill thats a lot of gun...i believe i would have the 8 setting handy incase...a gun like you have is not seen very often....i watch the tube for 8 s and 4 s they just dont come along to often especially with 3 3/4 chambers...that gun would probably fire 3 ounce of shot ok....ive put a few loads of 3 ounce through destreys old fa loomis...but shooting paper targets it dont take long to use up a pound of shot....in my collection of old brass shells i picked up a 4 inch some where....charlie

[George Lander]

My Super Fox with 32 inch barrels choked full & full weighs in at 10 pounds 4 ounces.

Best Regards, George

[George Lander]

Thanks Francis for them kind words. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the Southern. I am bringing the 4 bore E.M. Reilly if I can get RST to make me up some shells by then. (That is if they'll let me shoot it there)

Best Regards as Always, George

[Bill Murphy]

George, they will let you shoot it there. Four bore rifles are commonly shot in the "milk bottle pit" and our hero Destry shot eight bores at the long bird competition several years back. Eight bore guns have been shot in the Parker versus L.C. Smith Challenge also. Jim Hall was an eight bore shooter in the Challenge. Keep us informed on the four bore ammunition production. There are other four bore owners in PGCA who would be interested.

[charlie cleveland]

george is this e m riely a shotgun or rifle...if i was needing ammo i would contact tom armbrust he is the man to contact for 4 bore and 8 gauge ammo...has a really good book out the 4 and 8 and has lot of reloading info for these big bores.... charlie

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Charlie,

It's a rifle that's been bored out to a shotgun, I've got 10 gauge guns that are heavier. George thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and is asking $40,000 for it.

George,

You let us know if you have any success with the RST boys on the 4 gauge ammo. Last account I had they were only doing it up to 10 gauge. As Charlie says, Armbrust is the guy to talk to as I've probably mentioned before. The cases are what's tough, they just aren't out there to be bought.

[Francis Morin]

My Super Fox with 32 inch barrels choked full & full weighs in at 10 pounds 4 ounces.

Best Regards, George-- But with 32" Full & Full and factory ventilated rib, is now easier for me at age 70 to handle- but a Super fox HE is still a "Super" waterfowling gun-- You have good taste George, my friend!

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, my old pre 1913 vent rib 32" Smith is the best handling 32" gun I've ever shot. I guess we must have the only two factory pre-13 32" vent rib Smiths out there. I had never seen or heard of another until I heard about yours. Smith did just a wonderful job on my barrels. Most Smith vent rib guns are such pigs with big ugly beavertails and thick trap stocks.

[charlie cleveland]

tthat super fox at 10 lbs weighs more than most 10 ga of that time period...i lnow these guns were made for water fowling but wouldnt be grand to have a big gobbler sighted in.... charlie

[Francis Morin]

Francis, my old pre 1913 vent rib 32" Smith is the best handling 32" gun I've ever shot. I guess we must have the only two factory pre-13 32" vent rib Smiths out there. I had never seen or heard of another until I heard about yours. Smith did just a wonderful job on my barrels. Most Smith vent rib guns are such pigs with big ugly beavertails and thick trap stocks. I am not a huge fan of the big beavertail forearms on side-by-side guns, to my mind you loose some of the dynamics of a grooved mount and swing- However, as I mainly shoot 12 bores, I don't have the problem of wrapping my hands around a splinter forearm and the smaller barrel configuration of a 28 gauge side-by--

I tried to get this older Smith lettered, but records don't exist- sn is 1074 and the Nitro 32" barrels are stamped with that plus 2E- Later patent ejectors, but not the banjo shaped escutcheon, the later rectangular- checkering about 18 lpi- pg capped and solid red pad- fits me like an Armani suit on a Goombah--three position safety, 3" chambers but not marked so- and NOT a LongRange model- no bushed firing pins, but frame has the older reinforcement rails at the bottom- good solid walnut with grain, ebony tip on splinter--

I love it- for Tower birds, Turkeys, later season mallard and geese (with the Classic loads from Cabela's) and although I have yet to shoot live box birds, I did use it for both rings of the "pigeon ring" clays shoot last summer at Da Yooper- I hit 90% of the clays, BUT-- the ribbon has to fall inside the ring to score, and that was my downfall-but not the gun's fault at all- it loves 1 oz. No 8 RST 2.5" loads-patterns 80% at 40 yards in 36" circle shot after shot, and puts the pattern at about 65% over my POA- and NO middle bead on the rib- I'll bring it to the April shoot, if plans hold up--:bigbye:

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, I haven't shot any box birds with the 32" vent rib Smith, but I'm sure it would do very well. We may have the only two vent rib pre 1913 vent rib Smiths in the USA. Mine is a gem.