Finally! A Parker underlever, hammer action

[Chuck Schmidt]

schmidtce@aol.com
I have been collecting and restoring (amature stuff) unnoteworthy old hammer double shotguns for a few years, and finally picked up a Parker underlever hammer (10 gauge) that I could afford. This one is in fair condition: bores OK, stock OK but cracked and repaired, fingerprint mostly worn away on the Damacus barrels, one firing pin broken and one hammer has the top broke off (I have the part). The S/N is A1525, Patented No. 2133 (hard to read), the receiver is stamped F.9.R. and the barrels are stamped 'OT'. The locks are backlocks without the Parker logo; the 'Parker Bros. Maker' logo is on the barrels. Very plain shotgun, which is just fine with me. Grade 'O' based on the PGCA site photos (except those guns have pistol grip stocks and this one does not). The stock is stright, the forestock is pinned not latched, checkering is good, and the butt stock is steel. Before I launch into my ususal cleaning and repairs, I wanted to check with you Parker experts- should I leave this one 'as is' or does it matter? I paid $400 for the shotgun and I don't know what it's worth in the shape that it is in. For photos, please check the listing on the gunbroker site, item #206677640. My guess is that since none of you Parker guys bid on it, it's worth about $400. Thanks much for your input. I appreciate it. Chuck Schmidt

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Chuck,

Welcome aboard to 10 Gauge Parkers! I looked at that early back action Parker but did not desire to spend the money to restore it. If you can clean up the metal without damaging it and restore the wood you will have a gun to be proud of.

Considering the age I would definately have the barrel thickness checked and the barrels closely examined for pitting or other faults. If everything checks out okay I would limit the pressure of any smokeless loads.

Shoot well and safe,
Mark

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Mark-

Thanks for the welcome and the sound advice. I figured that every Parker guy not overly spent at Christmas time looked at the auction posting and said...'naw'. But I was wondering with the low S/N if I should only do minimum repair and cleaning because of it's age. It is a very plain and worn gun, but still cool...it's a Parker! Considering the condition of the gun and the dings near the end of the barrels, I have been contemplating cutting it down for my scatter gun collection. Where it is an old, worn gun in my long gun collection, it would be the gem of my short gun collection. I am worried, however, if I do that, will I get kicked out of PGCA or will a Parker collector come after me! If it's only worth what I paid for it ($400) I guess it doesn't matter much either way. A Parker 10 scatter gun would be an awesome sight, and look great next to the short Colt, Rem, and various other makers.

Thanks very much for your input Mark! Chuck

[Dave Suponski]

Chuck, Could you tell us the rib marking on that gun?

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Dave-

Thanks for the interest. The rib marking is:
'Parker Bros., Makers Meriden Conn Damascus Steel. Other than the stampings on the receiver and barrels reported above, that's it. 'Parker Bros.' is not stamped on the locks or anywhere else.

Question- what does the 'A' mean in the S/N? Does this mean that this gun is the 1,525th shotgun of this grade or gauge, or is it the 1,525th shotgun make by Parker Brothers?

Thanks for you interest and help Dave. Chuck

[Bill Anderson]

schmidtce@aol.com
I have been collecting and restoring (amature stuff) unnoteworthy old hammer double shotguns for a few years, and finally picked up a Parker underlever hammer (10 gauge) that I could afford. This one is in fair condition: bores OK, stock OK but cracked and repaired, fingerprint mostly worn away on the Damacus barrels, one firing pin broken and one hammer has the top broke off (I have the part). The S/N is A1525, Patented No. 2133 (hard to read), the receiver is stamped F.9.R. and the barrels are stamped 'OT'. The locks are backlocks without the Parker logo; the 'Parker Bros. Maker' logo is on the barrels. Very plain shotgun, which is just fine with me. Grade 'O' based on the PGCA site photos (except those guns have pistol grip stocks and this one does not). The stock is stright, the forestock is pinned not latched, checkering is good, and the butt stock is steel. Before I launch into my ususal cleaning and repairs, I wanted to check with you Parker experts- should I leave this one 'as is' or does it matter? I paid $400 for the shotgun and I don't know what it's worth in the shape that it is in. For photos, please check the listing on the gunbroker site, item #206677640. My guess is that since none of you Parker guys bid on it, it's worth about $400. Thanks much for your input. I appreciate it. Chuck Schmidt

Chuck,

You have a lot more courage than I do to take on a fix-it project like this. I wouldn't know where to start. If I was into Parker lifters I would probably buy something like this: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=210626385 and then complain about paying for it. I don't think you over paid for the one you bought. Good luck with your project!

Bill

[George Lander]

Chuck: Don't cut the barrels down. Have the dents taken out, clean it properly & put it in your long gun rack. JMHO

George

[Chuck Schmidt]

Greetings Bill!

Thanks for your input. I looked up the older Parker on auction you suggested- man is that nice. I don't typically look at anything other than 'fix-it' guns, and as it is, I live on the ragged edge of domestic civility on these issues. My joy comes from taking the broken and incomplete antique guns, and piecing together something that is functional, restored to the best of my ability, but not necessarily restoring to value (certainly not valuable in the sense of an original, collectable gun). I get guns at the bottom of their value, ready to be parted-out, and make something that at least I appreciate.

The gun you directed me to is very similar to mine, even some of the details, but the rear stock on mine is straight and that one (like those on the PGCA web site technical section) is a pistol grip, it has the forward lock plates stamped with 'Parker Brothers', a short undertang also stamped with the S/N, but much the same character including the old style forestock with the pin versus the latch. How is it that a gun with a lower S/N than mine (the one on auction is around 1,300) has what appears to me to be more 'modern' features? Or did they carry design features with gauge, like for example the straight stock with 10 gauge?

When I was younger and had more ambition for sanding and varnishing, my primary hobby was restoring old wooden boats (runabouts and cruisers mostly), making them correct and functional. Again my mode of operation was to find basket-case boats (called 'gray ghosts' in that group of afflicted middle-age men) and do all the work myself. What I learned was that the boat makers used what worked, often had no real plan of manufacturing, and used what was locally available that month in order to make production orders. Futher, they were always doing 'this and that' differently, experimenting to find what was the best way to go with products that would sell. I am beginning to suspect that this might be the case here.

Any thoughts on these topics from you guys in the know about early-made Parker shotguns would help. You guys are the repository for information and know-how! The ower of AuctioArms site talked me through hot-dip bluing... as and example. (With the old wood boats, I had to go to the boat bone yards and find the guy working in the back shop!) Thanks for your input. Chuck

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi George-
Thanks for the message. That's what my insticts are telling me. But why? Are there only a few of these around of this vintage, gauge, grade, and style, or is it just wrong to cut down a Parker in any condition? I don't want to wreck something that someone else may really want down the road. This isn't really about an investment or 'big score' or anything like that for me. But I do really like hammer action scatter guns- all makes, models and gauges. Thanks! Chuck

[Mark Ouellette]

Chuck,

Yes, there are few of these remaining. Every time someone cuts off barrels or parts out a Parker (Smith, Fox, LeFever...) there is one less. You are the legal owner of the gun and can cut the barrels or cut the action in half with a cutting torch if you desire. Most of us think that we are but custodians of these fine shotguns which will someday be passed or sold to someone else in hopefully as good or better condition than when we bought them. Parkers are a part of our American heritage. Defacing a Parker or other fine American double would be like (although illegal) cutting off a piece of the Liberty Bell.

Please respect your Parker. It is 140 years old!

Most respectfully to you,
Mark

[George Lander]

Chuck: If you know a surveyor, like Raimey Ellenburgh, ask him to tell you how many signed Kentucky Long rifle barrels he has encountered that were used to mark property corners. Read the Parker Story and you will see how few of these early Parkers were made and 140 years later how much fewer of them survive. If you're in to cowboy action guns, my suggestion would be to find a JABC or perhaps a Stevens in good condition & cut it down.
BUT SAVE THE PARKER, PLEASE!

Best Regards, George

[David Hamilton]

A gun as old and worn as that may not be able to take the pounding of cowboy action shooting. If you enjoy bringing old guns back from the dead you will have fun and will no doubt be proud of the results. Damascus barrels in shootable condition can be used with low pressure loads. There is much you need to know about the gun before you do so. Please keep the gun in as original condition as found -or better. David

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Mark-

Again, thanks very much for your response and it was very well said by the way. You have given me enough good reason to keep it as orinal as possible. I guess it doesn't matter what type of restoration or reconstruction I do with a common-made parts gun, but there is good reason to keep a Parker like this, although well used and worn, in tact and as original as possible. Thanks very much for the input, and agian, very well said.

Along those lines, I have receivers and some parts for two other Parker hammer shotguns-double barrel hammer action, 10 gauge (S/N 29,929 stright top lever; S/N 50,728 top lever but curved). I have been looking for barrels and forestock for one and I need to install a vintage replacement stock in the other. Not much luck getting parts however, but still looking. When I am done, they will be composite guns, but still worth having.

Thanks for the input Mark. I appreciate it. Chuck

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Chuck,

Parkers vary in Frame size but the #3 Frame was the most common for 10 gauge Parkers. A #3 Frame measures exactly 1 3/16" between the center of the firing pin holes of the breach face. To determine frame size just start at a #0 Frame at 1" and add 1/16" for each increase in a whole number.

Dave "Autumn Daze" has a set of 28" twist 10 gauge barrels for a #3 Frame. Look for his posts and send him a PM inquiring what he has in store for them after he uses them for a Parker Pages artical.

Oh, since you are new to the forum you may not know that the Parker Pages is a most outstanding publication with articals written by some of our more learnered members. No kidding, some of these guys can definately research and write with the pros! With a Parker Gun Collectors Association membership comes the Parker Pages. Also, I have found the Parker guys (and a few gals) the most friendly and helpful of any organization!!! I consider Dave "Autumn Daze" and his son friends after introducing them to my BFT, that is my 10 lb DH 10, at the Hidden Hollow shoot last summer.

Membership also includes access to the For Sale, WTB, and Swap and Parts Recycling setions of this website. The barrels are on the Recycling section.

Respectfully,
Mark

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Mark-

Wow, you are a wealth of good information. I will look into joining; it sounds like the Parker parts swap and Recycling sections is the place to sell my parts or acquire the ones that I need. I took all my Parkers out and looked at the spacings and frames- here is the intel:

The new 10 gauge-
I measured the spacing on the new 10 gauge, and I came up with 1 1/8", which would make the frame a #2, right? Aside from the firing pin hole spacing, I know it's a 10 gauge because a 12 shell rattles around a bit and 10 fits snug. So this is an older Parker, without frame markings that is a 10 gauge. And based on the measurement, the frame size is No. 2. This gun is complete but I could use a new firing pin assembly and hammer (although I think I can weld the broke part of the hammer).

Parker parts gun S/N 50728 (barrels, forestock, receiver, locks, hammers, all but rear stock)-
Then I dug out my two other Parker receivers- this one also mesured 1 1/8" from center of firing pin hole to center of pin hole. I know this one is also a 10 gauge because the barrels accept a 10 gauge shell. This Parker has a number No. 2 stamped on the underside of the barrels- No. 2 frame, right?. So this one is a 10 gauge with a No. 2 frame.

Parker parts gun S/N 29929 (replaced and unfinished rear stock, receiver, hammers, locks but missing barrels and forestock)-
I measured the spacing on this Parker parts set and again, 1 1/8" not 1 3/16"so this one also is a No. 2 frame. The receiver looks like the other two (width), so what gauge is it? The other 10 gauge barrels look like they would aline with the receiver. So, based on this inspection, what gauge barrels do I look for? 10 or 12? These Parkers didn't have interchangable barrels did they?

Looks like I have a lot to learn about Parker guns for these retorations, including how to find the parts, and what parts to look for. Thanks very much for the help. I appreciate it. Chuck

[Mark Ouellette]

Chuck,

Parkers are so interesting at least in part due to the many frame sizes. I have a #5 Frame Lifter 10 Gauge and 10's in #4, 3, and 2 Frame sizes. A #2 Frame may accept 12 or 10 gauge barrels (if properly fitted to the action). There were few #3 Frame 12's but you will see them on auction sites if you look.

I do not know the frame size of your new back action gun. Measure the maximum width of the barrels of that gun and your #2 Frame barrels (correct, marked on the barrel recoil lug). The back action 10 ga may be similar to a more modern #2 Frame. I DO NOT think the barrels will interchange. Also, DO NOT try to interchange barrels without removing the cocking hook. See the technical setion and also recent posts of those who got caught by the hook. Just because the frames are the same size does not mean that the barrels can be interchanged. If they are from the same type, i.e. Top Lever Hammer Gun, the barrels may be able to be fitted to the action. If you are lucky they may snap into place. Chances are greater for this if the barrel sets are close in serial number.

Stocks, fore ends, and barrels are hard to find but they do turn up. Keep your eyes open and do not heistate when offered to you. One can always sell but one can only rarely buy.

PS: I own a E Grade Hammerless 10 gauge on a #2 Frame with a set of VH 12 gauge barrels that were fitted to it. The 12 gauge barrels were cut to a bit less than 24" and are not much good for anything. Even with the short barrels the gun weighs 8 lbs! But, it is still neat to have a gun with 2 different gauge barrels!

Mark

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi George-

That's incredible! I am working on three BP Kentucky long-type percussion rifles, and I would faint of I saw one used as a property boundary stake.

I agree, I have several scatter guns that are shooters and don't need more than that. I am going to keep this old Parker orginal and restrain myself to a light cleaning and hammer repair. Thanks very much for your input and insight. Chuck

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Mark-

Thanks for the information. It is very interesting looking at the different variations of frame, mechanics, and form. I got into this by restoring cheap 1853 Enfiles offered by mail order from IMA- they purchased an arsenal in Nepal. I started restoring these 'battlefield' condition rifles for a song. Although clones of more valuable Brittish made by Tower in London, these were $180 and to specifications. My intersts followed the progression of firearme development from flints to muzzle load percussion (rifle, single shot shotgun, some pistols), to single cartridge rifles to double barrel cartridge hammer and hammerless shotgun, stoping with the Winchester lever action repeater. But I got stuck on dbl hammer action shotguns and short guns. All those restorations were straighforward compared to these Parkers!

Your information gives me hope that I will be able to find barrels and a fore end for this one project Parker. It would be just fine with me if a set of 12 gauge barrels and forend would fit the receiver. It seems that the 12 gauge parts surface more often that the 10 gauge. I can complete the other project gun by fitting a stock that I picked up that is pretty close.

I though I saw an ad for a Parker with interchangeable barrels...totally cool. That's why I asked. I bet your Parker with interchangable barrels is a bright spot in your collection. I love the innovention of the antique firearms makers.

Thanks again for your help Mark. Chuck

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi David-

I think you are right. I am now planning on a light cleaning and a repair of only the hammer and firing pin, with only a touch-up of one spot on the stock. I don't think I am going to worry about the dents in the barrels right now. Thanks very much for your input. Chuck

[todd allen]

I would never cut Parker bbls, no matter the condition of the rest of the gun!
Someone, somewhere down the road will thank you for rescuing this gun.

[Mark Landskov]

Considering the age of the gun and the 'snugness' of the 10 gauge shell in the chambers, it may be chambered for the 10B. It sounds like you have quite a project there with many rewards along the way to completion. Good luck!

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi Todd-

You Parker guys are very dedicated and convincing! We should send you guys to Washington on these gun and ammo control issues.

Yep, I have decided, despite the barrel dents and the low purchase price, to clean this survivior up, repair the broke hammer, look for a firing pin, and call it 'good'. It is the only underlever with this action I have. I have other 10 gauge doubles I can 'modify' for my short gun collection...which I really like.

Thanks Todd! Chuck

[Chuck Schmidt]

Hi-

And thanks for the info and encouragement. What's a 10B? Thanks. Chuck

[Chuck Schmidt]

Thanks again for the input, is it Mr. Roundsworth (your posting ID may not be your last name)- Quite a photo on you posting. You can see the percussion wave in the water at the firing of one of the big guns. My Dad was Army, Railsplinter, with three campains in Europe including the Bulge. Thank you for perserving our freedom, and your sacrifice to the people of America. Chuck.

[Mark Landskov]

Chuck, I hope I word this correctly.....the bore diameter of the older 10B gun is the same as (or close to) later guns. Brass shells were thinner than paper shells, so paper and plastic hulls are tight in the chambers of 'B' guns. Later on, the 10A brass shell was made the same outside diameter as the paper hull, so brass could be interchanged with paper, and our modern plastic, shells.

[Chuck Schmidt]

Thank you Sir! Your explanation on 10B guns makes perfect sense. Thanks very much! Chuck.