LeFever G grade

[Bruce Day]

xxxx

[John Mazza]

What's wrong with Bruce's posts ?

All I see is are four X's...

[Don Kaas]

Bruce is an "xxxxpert". That's the only answer....:rolleyes:

[Bruce Day]

John, after I posted my question about LeFevers, a friend who is knowledgeable in LeFevers called me and answered all my questions. Not wanting to leave the issue open, I deleted my post.

These LeFevers are mechanically interesting and some are very well done. Others have a decided "clunker" feel to them and I don't know enough to avoid the clunker issue except by having the gun in hand.

I don't know what an "xxxxpert" is and I have not seen the word before.

[Travis Sims]

"Clunker"

humm.........you must be confused with the Ithaca Lefever Nitro's.

[Nathan Ikert]

Here are my 3 lefevers (no clunkers here)
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/rthook21/IMGP0416.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/rthook21/IMGP0417.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/rthook21/IMGP0418.jpg

[lee r moege]

I agree on the lack of "clunkership" in the pictures. As I have posted before, I am enamored with A.H. Fox doubles and Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles as well as Parkers and have learned to love them all equally. But, in the back of my aging and sometimes confused brain, I have had a longing for one of the few Whitworth barreled Lefevers made but never have found one I could afford without getting rid on an example of one of the above mentioned pieces. Lee.

[Nathan Ikert]

The 3 that I have all have fine damascus barrels. The top is a single trigger G grade 12 ga. the 2nd is a G grade 16ga. weigths just under 6lbs. and the bottom is a 12 ga. E grade.

[lee r moege]

Nathan, thanks for sharing the info on your Lefevers. They are gorgeous! I have been inside one of these and they are very smooth and beautifully finished in the higher grades particularly. Now I know I will keep looking for the"right" one. Thanks again! Lee.

[Ed Blake]

I had a 12 gauge "G" grade once that weighed slightly over 7 lbs. that was exceptionally thick at the breech. Great guns and much better looking than that other American-made sidelock (I know, Lefevers are boxlocks). They all seem to have better than average wood too.

[Francis Morin]

I have a early G 12 with 30 inch Damascus tubes, a project gun. I have shot it at clays and pigeons with BP and lo-pressure 2.5" RST hulls- nice old economy grade gun, DT, extractors. I went to the LeFever site, mine is SN 24xxx made about 1894-95, has the sears on the sideplates and the single cocking hook design. I found out that after about SN 25xxx LeFever re-designed the mechanism and put the sears inside the stock, but as this IeFever I presently own is the only one I have dis-assembled (removed the sideplates only) I can't say for certain.

Mine has a "less bulky" appearance at the breech, has the take up screw with the two spanner wrench holes, weighs about 7 lbs. 6 oz. and balances at the hinge pin. Nice gun, but NOT a Parker by a long shot. DU had an article a few years ago by Ron Spomer on doubles, believe they had a 16 gauge Optomist Grade shown, very fine looking gun indeed.:cool:

[lee r moege]

The only ones I have been into were later guns apparently, as the sears were internal. It has been years since I have been in one, and my knowledge of Lefever's is not nearly as complete as a bonafide afficianado. I have just always liked their sleek lines, and if I find what I would like it will be a later gun with steel barrels. Years ago when Shooting Times Magazine was a larger format magazine, and Wallace Labisky was their shotgun man, He did a beautifully illustrated article on Syracuse Lefevers and Uncle Dan Boxlocks also. I need to see if I still have those articles as they were the ones that got me "hot" on Lefevers. Regards, and happy resoration. Lee.

[Steve McCarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun006.jpg

Here's my little "I" grade Lefever, made in 1901. It was the hardware store model and the least expensive of these old Lefevers. This gun has been re-done and looks nearly new. I know that people aren't suppost to rise to re-done guns, but I like this one and it fits me fine. Very light and quick. Nice crisp triggers. The later box lock Lefevers aren't nearly as nice. The fellow who "did" this gun, who is well known in the Lefever community, believes that Lefevers were better guns than Parkers. They are lighter. The gun is not damascus.

I own a Fox Sterlingworth, this Lefever, two Parkers (GH and SBT), an ASTRA Spanish double, an SKB double (new) and my dad's old Knickerbacher. It is interesting to compare them all against one another. Which is best? Well that's a matter of both conjecture and choice, and frankly I love them all....except for the SKB, it's just too new. The GH is still on lay-away. So the jury is still out on which I like best, but the Lefever and Fox are definitely in the running. What I have seen of the GH is very nice however.

[lee r moege]

Steve: Nice "I" grade!!!!. Whom ever redid it did a great job. I too don't have problems with a rebuilt/restored/rewhatever gun as long as it was done for a good reason cosmetically or mechanically out of necessity. My favorite "shooting" Parker is a DHE 20 gage on a #1 frame that had been poorly restocked but with beautiful wood that I was able to re-inlet and save. The forend is off an AHE and the serial number on the iron didn't match. The barrels have been sleeved from 16 gage to 20 gage and done right by Merrington I'm told.No, it's not a collector Parker and it's damned heavy for a 20 gage but it is a damned fine clays gun, and at an investment by me of only the woodwork and 2K$ I would rather have it than a some of the worn out crap and repro's I have seen lately. BTW, I now have a Lefever G grade with damascus barrels in 12 gage that looks as good as yours but is untouched except the barrels have been rebrowned. I wish it had steel barrels but these check out and work fine with RST's. Besides that, it was the last "marque" I needed to complete my collection on McIntosh's 7 "Best Guns made in America". (There is an old thread here on the Parker) Lee.:bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

Steve: Nice "I" grade!!!!. Whom ever redid it did a great job. I too don't have problems with a rebuilt/restored/rewhatever gun as long as it was done for a good reason cosmetically or mechanically out of necessity. My favorite "shooting" Parker is a DHE 20 gage on a #1 frame that had been poorly restocked but with beautiful wood that I was able to re-inlet and save. The forend is off an AHE and the serial number on the iron didn't match. The barrels have been sleeved from 16 gage to 20 gage and done right by Merrington I'm told.No, it's not a collector Parker and it's damned heavy for a 20 gage but it is a damned fine clays gun, and at an investment by me of only the woodwork and 2K$ I would rather have it than a some of the worn out crap and repro's I have seen lately. BTW, I now have a Lefever G grade with damascus barrels in 12 gage that looks as good as yours but is untouched except the barrels have been rebrowned. I wish it had steel barrels but these check out and work fine with RST's. Besides that, it was the last "marque" I needed to complete my collection on McIntosh's 7 "Best Guns made in America". (There is an old thread here on the Parker) Lee.:bigbye:

The work was done by Keith Kercher in Oregon. I had a wonderful damascus Lefever in my hands 10 years ago, but the dealer wouldn't send it to a local FFL and I lost the gun to the dealer's pal. Oh, well. We live, we learn and we do our best to buy wonderful shotguns.

My Sterlingworth feels like a Parker when in my hands. The Lefever has a heft all its own. It is almost slight. But both the Fox and the Parker feel stronger, meaning less likely to fail, but that's just a subjective evaluation. The Sterlingworth 12 gage with 30 inch tubes F&M is pretty chunky, but nothing like some early autos, like a Model 11 in 12 gage for instance.

I am blown away by the beauty of the damascus barrels and I'd like to gather more. They used to be cheap, since folks were afraid to shoot them, but I see that is changing.

[Russ Jackson]

I was at a local Gun Show a month or so ago and one of the sellers had a C Grade Le Fever on his table in 10 Ga. ,The engraving and the wood were fantastic ,the bores were so clean they appeared to be honed ,the two reasons I passed on it were ,#1 Lack of knowledge about the gun and the second reason the barrels were an odd length 28 3/8 or there abouts and the outside of the " Fine Damascus Barrels " , were pitted beyond imagination ,which led me to beleive with the inside of the bores looking so nice the gun had really been messed with and again ,not knowing really anything about the early Le Fevers ,I passed ,very good wood and engraving in a C Grade 10 Ga. but very poor barrels ,what would you fellows in the know feel the gun would have been worth ? Russ

[Steve McCarty]

Good story Brush, and one that all gun collectors can relate to. There are two things that I follow when buying guns. One is knowledge and the other is "hunch". Both of these elements have failed me in the past however.

This site is an excellent example of "knowledge" re Parkers. These guy know what they are talking about and are unlikely to be caught by the pig in a poke. As for hunch? Well, it is more esoteric. You just experienced it with the Lefever. You also mixed in a little horse sense.

Sometimes I recognize a gun as being authentic or not immediately. Then I take a good hard look at it to see if it is an excellent fake. Some are very well done. Then I try to access the seller. While a con man can be a very good con man he is usually not very successful because they develope a rep and the informed will avoid them. However, a sucker is born every day, and while I hate to mention it, I've been that person more that I'd like to admit.

I think your decision about the Lefever was correct. If a gun has wear it has to be even wear and it must show up in the proper places. Almost always at the balance of the piece, where it was carried, on the lower tang, and trigger guard where it was cupped in the hand. Forearm wear tells the age of a gun better than stock wear because the stock is most often refurbished. Butt pads/plates tell a story too. I like old guns with approprate wear as long as they aren't badly cracked or are missing chunks and parts. It takes some experience however to discern old and loved, from junk.

Every now and then I find an old gun at a show or pawn shop that others have not recognized for what it is, and it is those days that we all live for. It has happened to me. I have also missed some that I should have bought (Oh, boy should I have bought!) A painful example? A Winchester model 21, like new for $650 in a local pawn shop. The shop owne who I knew and trusted (a former student) said the gun was brought in by a guy who just wanted what he'd paid for it. I hefted the gun. I wasn't really into double barreled shotguns then and frankly the design and short barrels didn't excite me. I went home, changed my mind, when back and ......well, you know the rest of the story. There are others.

IMO the trick is to jump when the opportunity arrises, and after years of collecting guns of all kinds, I try to not miss an opportunity. Thus the GH that I just bought. (I really can't afford it; retired you see.) People who work in guns shops often don't know a muzzle cap from an ejection port. Those are the stores that I haunt. Every now and then I make a score.

My favorite finds are very dirty guns. Sometimes the seller can't see through the grime and prices them cheap. Old oil and grime and goo in the bore can also be a perservative. I've bought several old filthy guns that cleaned up to be minty.

I'll bet you have done the same. I'd like a nice damascus Lefever too. My $ however gets excited when I find a Parker that's priced right.

[charlie cleveland]

russ that old c grade was probably in the 2to 3 thousand dollar range... charlie

[Russ Jackson]

Thank you Charlie , As you know ,I am really hooked up in Parker guns but have to admit the workmanship on the Le Fever C appeared comparable to a B Grade Parker with the Double Dog engraving and the beautiful wood and Fleur De Lais ,checking ,just a beauty ,but I always feel the condition of the Barrels is what makes the true value of the " Double Barreled Guns " and this poor old gun just didn't have it . You are exact in your pricing ,that is just where the gun was tagged ! Best ; Russ

[charlie cleveland]

russ them old lefevers higher graded guns are some fine looking guns...ive got my dads old lefever its a high graded gun but unfornatly its got very pitted barrels also... but i like it pitts and all.. got the best piece of wood ive ever seen on a gun....lefevers are truly beautiful guns but so are parker s lc smith and fox lord the list goes on and on.... charlie

[Brent Francis]

I have two old Lefever 12 ga one is a F grade the other is a G. I really like them. They are real easy to take apart to clean and have alot of nice features for adjusting for wear. there is a bolt at the hinge that can be tighted to take up wear in the action and there is a screw in the piece where the forend attaches to keep the forend tight. Very well thought out. And as others have pointed out they are extremely well checkered and engraved with nice wood

[Francis Morin]

Thank you Charlie , As you know ,I am really hooked up in Parker guns but have to admit the workmanship on the Le Fever C appeared comparable to a B Grade Parker with the Double Dog engraving and the beautiful wood and Fleur De Lais ,checking ,just a beauty ,but I always feel the condition of the Barrels is what makes the true value of the " Double Barreled Guns " and this poor old gun just didn't have it . You are exact in your pricing ,that is just where the gun was tagged ! Best ; Russ-- My criteria in looking at a older side-by jibes with what others have said- besides the obvious of good mechanics, and for me, double triggers are a must (also 12 gauge)-- uncut barrels free of dents, pitts, etc. Lotsa con men try tricks re: selling doubles to the "unwary" they run a swab with baby powder through the barrels to cover up small pitts, when you hold them to the light they will shine like a Xmas tree in December. If you want to sell them or offer one of your guns on trade to them, they'll "ring the barrels" by holding them by the extractor face-this gives a false reading and good barrels with good solder will sometimes "clunk" instead of 'chime"--when suspended like that-- The stock has to fit me, and the trigger pulls must be crisp- chokes and chamber lengths come later. Russ, for what it is worth- my "gut' tells me you did the right thing by passing this C grade- good or even great wood and checkering can't overcome mechanical problems on any gun.:bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

The feel of the two guns, the Parker and the Lefever are indeed different. The Lefever is light and slender and to me it's CG is farther forward. It floats to your shoulder and swings well. The Parker IMO is heavier, and has a center of gravity that is farther toward the butt. So when you throw it to your shoulder it goes easily because of momentum, but it's muzzle does not take off as readily. As for quality? I really don't know. I've seen several beautiful Optimus Lefever guns and they are wonderful with fine engraving and light barrels. The Parkers that I have hefted are heavier, but beautiful guns.

I don't know which is a better gun. After hunting season this year I'll have a better idea.

[Steve McCarty]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun002.jpg

Here is my "I" graded lefever made in 1901. It is a plain jane gun, no engraving except for the company name. I've read that they are not "true" sidelocks, not sure what that means, but she is a pretty and very light gun.

[Steve McCarty]

Here's another picture of my Lefever. Cost me $600, another pawn shop find.


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/GermVMA211/Gun%20Stuff/Lefevershotgun006.jpg

This is a Kearcher gun.

[Francis Morin]

You are 100% right about the sidelock ?? re: Your fine LeFevers-- the absence of the various pins (as you can see from looking at the lockplates of an LC Smith, Purdey, etc-- are the "give-away". The lads on the LeFever site can help you more than I can, but IMO- the first series LeFevers as are yours are sideplated boxlock doubles- as the tumblers (hammers) mainsprings, sears and axles are NOT attached to the inside of the plates- Very nice work by Mr. Kearcher- he has an excellent reputation indeed.

OT perhaps- but I find it a bit interesting that the two longest in production American doubles- regardless of type- were under the aegis of solid businessmen- Charles Parker and Lyman Smith- they both hired first rate designers ( C.A. King for Parker- Wm. Baker for Smith- also Ithaca) and the two other really fine American doubles- LeFever and AH fox- were developed by men, who- if I have my history in proper perspective- were NOT good businessmen- Dan LeFever and Ansley Fox--

I can see I'm going to have to look you up and do a "pawn shop recon' together- the $600 is a bargain-- I only owned one sideplated leFever-a 20 bore DS- best grouse gun I have ever shot- like a fool I let a hunting partner talk me out of it- we live LEARN (SOMETIMES)!!!:bigbye::bigbye:

[Steve McCarty]

You are 100% right about the sidelock ?? re: Your fine LeFevers-- the absence of the various pins (as you can see from looking at the lockplates of an LC Smith, Purdey, etc-- are the "give-away". The lads on the LeFever site can help you more than I can, but IMO- the first series LeFevers as are yours are sideplated boxlock doubles- as the tumblers (hammers) mainsprings, sears and axles are NOT attached to the inside of the plates- Very nice work by Mr. Kearcher- he has an excellent reputation indeed.

OT perhaps- but I find it a bit interesting that the two longest in production American doubles- regardless of type- were under the aegis of solid businessmen- Charles Parker and Lyman Smith- they both hired first rate designers ( C.A. King for Parker- Wm. Baker for Smith- also Ithaca) and the two other really fine American doubles- LeFever and AH fox- were developed by men, who- if I have my history in proper perspective- were NOT good businessmen- Dan LeFever and Ansley Fox--

I can see I'm going to have to look you up and do a "pawn shop recon' together- the $600 is a bargain-- I only owned one sideplated leFever-a 20 bore DS- best grouse gun I have ever shot- like a fool I let a hunting partner talk me out of it- we live LEARN (SOMETIMES)!!!:bigbye::bigbye:

The pawn shop probably paid Kearcher 6 or 800 bucks to refurbish the gun. When I bough it, it had been on the rack for a year. They dumped it for, was they told me, less than they paid Kearcher. It was indeed a steal. Keith is a big fan of the Optimus gun. He does a lot of work on Parkers too, but there are more of them to work on.

[lee r moege]

Steve: The Lefever is really a box lock with side plates. Below about SN# 25,000 I think it is, the sears are attatched to the side plates. The hammers etc. are all mounted in the frame. The cocking indcators are mounted in the sideplates and work off a tapered section on the hammers that push them out when the hammers are cocked. After that range of serial numbers the sears are mounted in the frame also which means they are a box lock with side plates for access to the lockwork only. Your DS is a later gun and would be of this configuration. The DS and I were the lowest grade made under the Lefever patents and were the same gun. The I grade was a branded name gun for Shoverling and Daly and some other "hardware store " private brands. All in all they are still a Lefever and you can expect to see almost any combination of features that may or may not be cataloged. Love it to death!!!! Lee:bigbye: