Twist vs. Plain Twist

[Jim Kremmel]

I’ve spent the evening here looking for examples or threads discussing Twist vs Plain Twist barrels. The info under the technical info tab indicates that there were many more plain twist barrels fitted than twist barrels. Here are some pictures of my PH sn 144,983. I see a T stamped in the barrel near the weight, but no T with crescents. Which type do I have, and what is the difference/significance between the two types? My apologies if this has been discussed previously, I don’t yet have any of the Parker reference books.

[Drew Hause]

Plain Twist
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BdbWHfJmr2EyvzcPybid7pwlEliH6m9pr1LxMESM3W0/edit

[Mike Franzen]

Show us more of the gun please. Looks very interesting.

[Garry L Gordon]

Hmmm...a 1 1/2 frame with plain twist barrels. I wonder how many of those there might be?

[Dean Romig]

11,107 Hammerless 12-gauge Grade-1 guns were made with Twist barrels.

Parker Steel barrels had all but replaced Twist barrels by 1917 and the 1 1/2 frame had been around since about 1900 so I would guess that a fair number of 1 1/2 frame 12-gauge guns with Twist barrels were produced. Unfortunately it is a very rare entry in the Parker Bros. records that indicate a frame size of a particular gun.

The T stamp without the crescents above and below is generally known to be the stamp for Stub Twist (see pg. 581 of TPS) and these are "only" seen on hammer guns with a very few rare exceptions that may have been made as "special" guns. These would have been recorded at T1 guns or ST guns.
Parker No. 144983 is listed as a "PT" in the Serialization book so it is not likely to be one of those special guns.

Can we guess that the crescents were omitted in error?




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[Garry L Gordon]

11,107 Hammerless 12-gauge Grade-1 guns were made with Twist barrels.

Parker Steel barrels had all but replaced Twist barrels by 1917 and the 1 1/2 frame had been around since about 1900 so I would guess that a fair number of 1 1/2 frame 12-gauge guns with Twist barrels were produced. Unfortunately it is a very rare entry in the Parker Bros. records that indicate a frame size of a particular gun.
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Thanks, Dean. This is a grade and barrel type that has always interested me, so I look closely at them when they come up. I don't see many advertised in this frame size, so your estimate has me hopeful that I may be able to add one to my collection.

[Jim Kremmel]

Show us more of the gun please. Looks very interesting.

The gun is in the capable hands of Keavin Nelson for stock restoration and (swallowing hard) shortening the barrel by about an inch to remove the bulge in the right barrel. As all collector value is long gone, Keavin helped me reenvision this gun to do duty in the field for another 100 years and keep it in the gene pool.

[Dean Romig]

Keavin is a good man and a good friend to all.




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[Paul Stafford]

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=421&pictureid=4569

Twist & Stub Twist - Granted Hammer gun examples..

[Dean Romig]

Paul, is the top one the Stub Twist gun?

And please explain what you mean by granted?




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[Paul Stafford]

Yes, Dean you are correct. I was just saying these two of mine are nice examples for comparison but are hammer versions vs. hammerless.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Paul - They are stunning! Amazing black/white contrast!

If they have been refinished, do you know by whom?





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[Drew Hause]

Paul: I believe the top gun barrels are Damascus Twist found on an occasional P grade

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-ZT3vBdH/0/4bb783e0/S/1%262%203-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-ZT3vBdH/A)

Damascus Twist refinished by Breck Gorman which shows 2 end-on rods, demonstrating how the rod was 'stacked' - quite different than Twist.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9RQx9Cq/0/ff8305d0/M/1%262%205%20Damascus%20Twist%20Breck%20Gorman-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9RQx9Cq/A)

Could you please post a close up of the pattern?

[Dean Romig]

But what do the rib legends say they are?





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[Paul Stafford]

Thanks Paul - They are stunning! Amazing black/white contrast!

If they have been refinished, do you know by whom?





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Dale Edmonds did them 8-9 years ago, I’ve had them around 11-12 years.

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Paul. Dale also refinished a set of Bernard barrels for me about that long ago that are also very high contrast.

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[Paul Stafford]

Thanks Paul. Dale also refinished a set of Bernard barrels for me about that long ago that are also very high contrast.

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Yw always did great work, did several of mine also. I would to find the Bernard barrels for my CH, at this point I’d settle for any I could find. Yours are beautiful!

[Dean Romig]

I sold mine many years ago to a member who had an original two-barrel two-gauge CH but only had the 10 gauge barrels. My 12's snapped onto his gun like they were made for it. He was very pleased.





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[Paul Stafford]

I sold mine many years ago to a member who had an original two-barrel two-gauge CH but only had the 10 gauge barrels. My 12's snapped onto his gun like they were made for it. He was very pleased.





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I hope someone will have a set for my 2 frame CH, I’ll keep searching till I find a set. I found a d-grade back in 2012 with a set but the guy wouldn’t part with them. I even offered a set of d-grade Damascus and wouldn’t budge. The search continues…

[Paul Stafford]

Paul: I believe the top gun barrels are Damascus Twist found on an occasional P grade

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-ZT3vBdH/0/4bb783e0/S/1%262%203-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-ZT3vBdH/A)

Damascus Twist refinished by Breck Gorman which shows 2 end-on rods, demonstrating how the rod was 'stacked' - quite different than Twist.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9RQx9Cq/0/ff8305d0/M/1%262%205%20Damascus%20Twist%20Breck%20Gorman-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9RQx9Cq/A)

Could you please post a close up of the pattern?

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1005&pictureid=13326

http://parkerguns.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=1005&pictureid=13325

[Dave Noreen]

It appears from the pictures I've saved that the earlier Twist barrel PH guns were marked with the T with crescents above and below while guns above 131xxx have just the T. There are some huge gaps in my data points.

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Paul, but is that not the bottom gun's barrel?

Though marked "Stub Twist" it is Parker's “Fine English Twist”.

[Dave Noreen]

In the 1882 Parker Bros. catalog the Qualities R, S, T & U were listed with TWIST barrels, and the Qualities N, O, P & Q were listed with FINE ENGLISH TWIST barrels. I've never seen a rib marking other than TWIST or STUB TWIST.

By the circa 1900 "blue ink" catalog the Qualities N, O, P & Q are gone and only the R, S, T & U with TWIST barrels remain. In the Hammerless guns the Qualities PH & NH are listed with FINE ENGLISH TWIST barrels.

By the "Pine Cone" and "Flying Brant" catalogs both the hammer and hammerless guns are listed with ENGLISH TWIST barrels, no more FINE.

A bit of a disconnect between what the folks in the office were writing in the catalogs and the folks in the factory were marking on the ribs.

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Dave.
Unfortunately, in that there was no American, European and British Union for the Standardization of Nomenclature of Damascus and Twist Barrels makers could name their barrels whatever they wished, and did, often creatively ;)
Pretty much no chance that Remington's "London", Lefever's and Baker's "Best London Damascus Twist" or Parker's "Fine English Twist" tubes were sourced in England.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Ferlach-French/i-z6SsftJ/0/63ecfe41/XL/P5070525_Ferlacher-XL.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Ferlach-French/i-z6SsftJ/A)

"London" is Damascus Twist
"Birmingham", "Ruban" and "Band" are...uh...some other kinds of twist :)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tXvObBOfgGpOKTh_jkttPcH1lKd--bfHY_sIjmr8uy8/edit

And according to Greener VERY little (true) Stub Twist was produced in England after the 1860s as horseshoe stubs became increasingly difficult to obtain

[Dean Romig]

In the 1882 Parker Bros. catalog the Qualities R, S, T & U were listed with TWIST barrels, and the Qualities N, O, P & Q were listed with FINE ENGLISH TWIST barrels. I've never seen a rib marking other than TWIST or STUB TWIST.

By the circa 1900 "blue ink" catalog the Qualities N, O, P & Q are gone and only the R, S, T & U with TWIST barrels remain. In the Hammerless guns the Qualities PH & NH are listed with FINE ENGLISH TWIST barrels.


Thanks Dave - That's the information that's been missing. I don't have any of those catalogs.




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[Dean Romig]

Thanks Dave.
Unfortunately, in that there was no American, European and British Union for the Standardization of Nomenclature of Damascus and Twist Barrels makers could name their barrels whatever they wished, and did, often creatively ;)
Pretty much no chance that Lefever's and Baker's "Best London Damascus Twist" or Parker's "Fine English Twist" tubes were sourced in England.


So Drew, where would they have been sourced... Belgium? They weren't sourced here... or were they?





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[Drew Hause]

Parker could have made it easier for us 120 years later ;)

Fall 1898 Sears catalog the PH has "Fine twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9mbpV7x/0/2f377e5d/M/Sears%20No.%20107%20Fall%201898%20Parker-M.png (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-9mbpV7x/A)

Catalog No. 112 1902 the PH now has "fine English twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-LcgMF9g/0/fbb11c65/M/Sears%20catalog%20112%201902%20large-M.png (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-LcgMF9g/A)

[Drew Hause]

re: sources for the "rough forged tubes" used by every U.S. double gun maker

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vgxxWD_hui-i629-T1yxwY559DU-xzFFBDVe9ur3mCo/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Parker
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CGAF5f-J0-Foww572KvNYb0xSS1nBasWgHYvzD18i3c/edit

[Drew Hause]

This doesn't help either ;)
Clearly Damascus Twist and labeled "Twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PMRwbwD/0/0c78a480/L/Parker%20Damascus%20Twist%20marked%20Twist-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PMRwbwD/A)

[Dave Noreen]

Fall 1898 Sears catalog the PH has "Fine twist"


I place very little credence in the text in third party catalogs!! Company literature is confusing enough!

[Dean Romig]

Catalog No. 112 1902 the PH now has "fine English twist"


And could this be the same stuff just four years later?... pretty likely but under a different name.




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[Drew Hause]

Parker 1874 Price List

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-cqdWQss/0/cbefe071/L/1874_parker_price_list%20%282%29-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-cqdWQss/A)

Simmons Hdw. 1878. Plain Steel replaced with Plain Twist and the Grade 6 is added with "Finest Damascus"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-MfppcHB/0/cd0e2c6c/L/1878%20Simmons%20Hdw.%20Price%20List%20-%20Cropped-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-MfppcHB/A)

[Dave Noreen]

I just noticed a 12-gauge gun on GI, 10208, with a rib marking of PLAIN TWIST --

96549

In an earlier post in this thread I said I've never seen a rib marking other than TWIST or STUB TWIST.

[Drew Hause]

Here's another. Unfortunately I failed to document the DOM or grade but thinks it was a Lifter. Same font as Dave's link.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-wjhhrX7/0/862a77fa/M/Plain%20Twist%20brls%20%281%29-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-wjhhrX7/A)

[Drew Hause]

The plot thickens. 1892 PH with letter and rib marked "Twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-WPJmp5q/0/b1851e40/S/14g%201892%20PH%20Letter-S.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-WPJmp5q/A)

Which is most certainly not the usual Parker "Plain Twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-wcLd9km/0/1f2b87a1/M/14g%201892%20PH%20Rib-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-wcLd9km/A)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PZHKspH/0/eac8363f/M/14g%201892%20PH-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PZHKspH/A)

[Garry L Gordon]

So, would the fact that the gun was a 14 gauge be part of the reason for different barrel material?

[Jay Oliver]

Drew that looks more like "Stub" Twist to me. I like it! What a wonderful Parker!

[charlie cleveland]

I have 2 guns marked plain steel both are 10 gaand seen another gun marked plain steel I wish now I had bought it...it was a 12 ga....charlie

[Drew Hause]

Garry: not at all. Just another maker of the "rough forged tube"

Here are some Twist examples. I think it's similar to the one on the right; possibly Rubans Royal

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Sample-segments/i-H4VZZxZ/0/85729b65/M/Juleinond%20no.%204%20Twist%20-%20possibly%20Rubans%20Royal-M.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Sample-segments/i-H4VZZxZ/A)

[Drew Hause]

Dave Purnell's 1875 $60 grade Plain Twist underlifter

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PCcLppZ/0/c3086bc5/L/0%20grade%20Plain%20Twist%20underlifter%201875%20D Ave%20Purnell-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-PCcLppZ/A)

Dave's 1888 12ga Quality P top action hammergun with "London Damascus Twist"

https://photos.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-kzs7hXz/0/c38fe0ca/L/12ga%200%20grade%20Twist%20top%20action%20hammergu n%201888%20Dave%20Purnell-L.jpg (https://drewhause.smugmug.com/Damascus/Parker/i-kzs7hXz/A)