Build Date Clarifcation & Other

[Robert Tarbox]

As happens, I have inherited a hammer 12Ga double barrel Parker, and am trying to learn a bit about it. First, it is in poor condition and marks have to be found under rust and gunk. I have determined so far that by serial number,46871, that it was produced around 1875. However, it would seem that by Patent dates also stamped in various places, up to 1878, that Parker would not produce a piece in 1875 and post date patent dates in the future. Does that make sence, or am I missing something. Yes, I am aware that this site mentions that the dates are approximate. If any one could comment on this I would appreciate it.

Further, regarding the barrel weight, I have found on the watertable a 4 with a 5 stamped close up and to the right of the 4. Would that be 4# 5 ozs?

As far as I have determined the gun is a #1 frame and there is a T & H stamed near the barrel weight. Would this be the grades(s) ? The barrel is
32 "

If there is other information that would help in clarifying information, i would be glad to try to find it.

Thanks for any help

[Don Kaas]

Your gun was made in 1885. It is listed as a Grade 0 with a straight grip and 32" 12g twist barrels. 4 5 is the unfitted barrel weight. Write for a PGCA Research Letter.

[Robert Tarbox]

Don:

Thanks for the reply and the information. Your suggestion regarding the PGCA letter is under consideration. I am debating at this point, just how much capitol to invest in either restoration or preservation. As I mentioned, the piece is in poor condition including a broken stock and heavy pitting, both inside and outside. I don't beleive the gun has been fired since 1916 and has been in an attic in the Carolina low country since. However when it was used, it was used extensivly as there was a lot of photo ducumentation at the time.

Thanks again for your help.

Bob

[Bill Murphy]

The photo documentation is likely to be worth much more than the gun. The letter is unlikely to shed much light on a 0 Grade gun, but you can't tell without seeing the letter.

[Robert Tarbox]

Bill:

Thanks for your input. I am having some trouble in getting this post in the system, so please bare with me. I know the piece is not valuable, especially in it's present condition. I have filled out the PGCA form and it will be in the mail tomorrow. I just want to get as much information as I can for historical purposes. The photos I spoke of are of Duck hunting in the low country, early in the last century, where the trophies, hunters and the pieces were on display.

Thanks again for your help in this matter.

Bob

[Russ Jackson]

Robert; It would be great to see some pictures ! Russ

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Yeah, if there's any way to post some of the hunting photos we'd all love to see them.

Destry

[Robert Tarbox]

Thanks for your interest, yes I will post some photos when I get on to how to do this sort of thing. I think I will have to consult with the kids and get a crash course on photo scanning and such.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

If you don't have a scanner you can take them to Walgreen's and scan them in there. Then they'll put them on a disk for you to take home. Upload the disk to your computer then save the photos from there into a PhotoBucket account and you're ready to post.

I'm not too computer savvy and I figured it out so it can't be too hard.


Destry

[David Hamilton]

Being from the Carolina Low Country, I would be more than interested in the history of your gun. It is still a hunter's paradise. David

[Robert Tarbox]

The PGCA letter provided some further details indicating the first owner was not in my family as I first thought. However after consulting with some folks from Georgetown SC, I can come up with a plausable explanation of events. The gun was purchased from the Kaminski Hardware Company in Georetown SC, in 1887 by G.A. Lohr. Mr Lohr was a prominent business person owning a clothing store on Front Street. As a sportsman, he used the Parker for about 13 years then sold or otherwise conveyed the piece to my father or grandfather, after he had it factory refurbished in 1900. The area, at the time was a prime rice growing region and the small boys of the plantation owners and hands were given the chore to keep the "rice birds" out of the fields when the crop was in the ripening stage. This was the role my father was doing at the time and they used light loads suited to shoot or scare, the Bobolinks and other birds out of the fields. The Parker, with the twist barrel was well suited to this duty.The hurricane of 1905 changed that forever since, as the fields and crop was completly overrun with the salt water. The fields were never used for that purpose again as the rice growrers could not compete with the growers in the gulf region at the time. I don't know if the gun was used after that or not.

After looking over the photos I had mentioned in a prevous post, I find the Parker does not appear in the duck hunting these photos depict around 1915. I had not seen the actual gun for about 50 years, so I was mistaken when I mentioned the documentation. My apoloigy for this error.

I am attaching the photos now that I have gone through the learing curve to do this, even though the Parker is not one of the guns in the photos. The photos depict duck hunting along the Sampit, Santee and Waccamaw rivers in Gergetown County SC, circa 1915. My father appears in several.

Thanks for all your assistance in finding information and pointing me in the right direction to learn a little more about the Parker gun In my care.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Robert,

I'm very interested to see your photos, thanks for going to the trouble of getting them ready to post.


Destry

[Robert Tarbox]

Well, That didn't go well. I will try again to attach the photos I mentioned before.

Where are the Grandkids when you need them?

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Very nice, those are some great photos.

"English Mallards" that's not a phrase I've heard used in reference to anything except live decoys. Interesting!

Down in Louisiana some folks call mallards "French Ducks" oddly enough.


Destry

[David Hamilton]

Dear Robert, The Sampit as well as the other rivers emptying into Waccamaw Bay have been amongst the most productive hunting waters in eastern USA. My family has hunted those waters for centuries. The Santee Club was near-by and included many Northern sports who came for the shooting. Your pictures reveal a part of that shooting arranged for visiting sportsmen. As the area was economically flat on its back, locals could not afford steam yachts and the like. It was a tourism business and all were glad to get it. There were some very colorful people who infested the area and the tales are interesting and long. My people were from Charleston but included Georgetown and they were sportsmen. David

[Robert Tarbox]

David:

Yes, you are absolutely right, These photos were part of an effort to promote the Winyah Bay and The Santee Delta as "The Sportsman's Paradise" in 1916. As was previously discussed, the devastation to the economy when the rice industry failed was enormous for the region. My Grandfather was a rice planter and owned the Willowbank Plantation, on the (Black) Pee Dee. After the hurricane, they turned the rice mill into an oar factory and produced oars until they Ash lumber was depleted in the Black River area, around 1912. Hunting and fishing were a better part of the economy at the time. The Atlantic Coast Lumber Company on the Sampit River in Georgetown, was the only major employer in the region at the time, I believe.

I hope this discussion does not seem to be too far off topic for some, a little history is good for all of us now and then, don't you think?

[Dean Romig]

Robert, on the contrary, this discussion is the kind of thing that makes this forum what it is. Historical facts about Parkers, People, places that were hunting and shooting destinations are the kind of things that augment the great historical articles many of the members write for the Parker Pages - the wonderful "newsletter" of the PGCA. The Parker Pages, in reality, is the fifty odd page journal of the PGCA and Parker history in all it's forms both past and present.

Thanks for sharing.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

It's thread like this that keep me interested. Not being a tech or mechanic, sometimes that sort of thing can be a little dry. Keep it coming!

Destry

[David Hamilton]

Robert, My Great Grandfather was a rice factor who worked with a good many rice growers in the Georgetown area. Perhaps our ancestors knew each other. Mine was named Henry O'Neill and as he died of heart failure he made some notes about his business but it had been his habit to keep all his records in his head! I need not tell you the rest.
My grandmother told me that the family ate mostly game at the table and that beef was a rarity. I will try to find a photo of him with a deer he shot. David

[Robert Tarbox]

David, It would be very likely that they knew of each other, However I have no way of knowing at this date. It seems there is no one left to ask. If I knew then, what I know now, I sure would have asked more questions of the older folks when I was young. There is so much detailed history lost forever for the lack of just asking. A word to the wise for some of you younger people, ask questions of your relatives, of their lives, knowledge of their work, hobbies, geographic areas, people in their lives, before it is too late.

For geographic reference, my grandfathers plantation was on the north side of Georgetown and adjoining the town limits. It was on the portion of the Pee Dee between the Black river and Winyah Bay. The rice fields are still apparent and visible from the bridge over the Waccamaw river. The dry land area is now a sub division and once was the farm portion of the property. The property was sold around 1914-15 and to whom, I don't know.

[David Hamilton]

Robert, The sense of loss we know has no name but we know it never-the-less. The South of my knowledge knew it. The inheritance of a defeated people. I am alarmed to see such feelings expressed by our President to the world about a people who have not been defeated. This correspondence awakens in me the remembrance that only those who had the courage to face any and all challenges had any chance of success. Success was not available to all but those who fought for it at least passed on to their descendants a sense of urgency and hope for the future. There is no place on earth that has a greater hold on my emotions than the Low Country. Alas I have removed myself from it because of a new loss. I have been replaced by richer immigrants who are fleeing from places like New York and have the cash to buy the locals out. My property taxes rose to over $35,000. for two very old small houses which were connected by doors but together had no more than 3000 sqf of space in a desirable part of town. For that tax I could not expect police protection from the drunks who made the night hell , nor would the city clean up the broken glass left by such people. Together with the cities' tourism bent and as my neighbors left and I was isolated in a neighborhood of strangers, I voted with my feet. David

[Robert Tarbox]

Gentlemen:

I wish to contact anyone who could put me in touch with a person or business, that could provide me with a part for the Parker Hammer Gun #46871. Specifically, I am looking for the split leaf spring for the trigger(s) return. I am attaching a photo of the failed part. The gun was handled poorly and maintained worse. In cleaning up and de-rusting, I found the leftside mechanism to be bent along with the triggers with the broken spring. As was previously reported, the stock is broken (eight small pieces in the area of the receiver) but I will work on that. This will take some work, but I think I can get this into a functional state (no, I don't intend to use it ) for historic purposes, family hierloom as it were.

Any help in finding a source would greatly be appreciated. Thanks.

Bob Tarbox

[Robert Tarbox]

Now, I will attach a photo, I'll get into this pretty soon.

[David Hamilton]

I had that part made for me by Louis Rotelli but I don't see a mention of him in the membership list. I would think that a clock maker of Parker gunsmith could easily make that part. David

[David Dwyer]

Robert
There is an excellant gunsmith,Jim Kelley, in Darlington that does a lot of Parker work and has an extensive stock of parts. There are several of us Parker collectors in Georgetown and we all think very highly of Jim and his work. Jim can be reached at 843-393-3931. My wife is friends with your daughter Meg and if I can help let me know.
David

[Robert Tarbox]

Thanks to both Davids for responding, I am working with a local gunsmith currently and I will know in a week or so if this works out. He said he had made one of these before. We'll see.

Regarding my relationship to Meg, she is a fine young lady, however she is the daughter of my cousin, and not my daughter. When her Grand Parents lived there, I was privileged to have some mighty fine seafood dinners in her dinning room.

When I was discussing with the gunsmith, about procuring a replacement spring, he mentioned that if I had brought the gun to him to fit the replacement part, He would have to disable the gun by removing the firing pins since it was a twist steel barrel. Needless to say, but I did not leave the gun in his hands. I am aware of the potential safety issue in blatantly using some current factory loads in the gun, but to disarm the gun without owner consent doesn't seem right to me. I'm not aware of any law to that effect, but if there is, please let me know.

I will keep you advised regarding my success in finding a suitable replacement spring, and if I need further assistance here, I will advise the forum.

Thanks for all your help.

[Dean Romig]

Robert, I think you would be doing us all a service by informing us of this gunsmith's name so that we may be sure not to inadvertantly send him any of our guns with composite barrels.

There is no such law and he has no right to disable anyone's firearm based on his superstitions.

[Robert Tarbox]

Dean:

Let me discuss this with him further before I make his name public. There may be a misunderstanding, and I don't want to make a mistake here.

Thank you for responding regarding the law. I knew of no laws requiring this action, however, I will try to find out if there are any such laws at the local laws.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

There aren't any local laws either, he's just operating under the assumptions of many years and what is says on the flap of the Winchester, Remington, Federal shell boxes. It's only been in the past 10 years or so that guys have started shooting these types of guns again.

When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, everybody assumed that if you even held a box of nitro powder shells near one it would explode and kill everybody within five miles. The fictional stories I've heard some of these gunsmith / gunshow cranks tell about seeing guys blow these things up and the resulting destruction to gun, man, dog, and surrounding spectators was comical at the time and even more so today.


Destry

[Bill Murphy]

I have been collecting Damascus guns, let's see, my first Damascus Lefever was about 1957, when I was 11 years old. I just shot my first smokeless load out of my Grade 1 Damascus hammer gun at the 2007 Southern Side by Side, the first smokeless load I have ever fired out of a composite barrel gun without inserts. I loaded black powder for 50 years, read Sherman Bell's research, waited a couple of years, and bit the bullet. It was a great 50 years, however, with dozens of great guns shot and cleaned, from 20 gauge to 8 gauge. I'm not much for selling Parkers or Lefevers, so I still have most of the Damascus guns I've fooled with over the years. I was slow to convert, but now I know what the pressure characteristics are of both black and smokeless powders, thanks to Sherman. I own a wall thickness gauge and a couple of bore micrometers thanks to Manson and Tony, and a cabinet full of machinist's measuring tools, thanks to Linda's Dad. I am no long afraid. Even before Sherman, I was a bit suspicious of the Damascus warnings when I saw a ten gauge Damascus Purdey hammer pigeon gun at a Richmond gun show that had British nitro proof marks for 3 1/2" shells, proved at 4 tons as I recall. If there was ever a gun that I'm sorry I passed up, that was the one.