Trained Cold Weather Pointer

[jefferyconnor]

I'd like to get a pointer to hunt with me in Alaska for grouse. I would appreciate your thoughts as to breed and kennel. I believe a tall, strong dog would be best to power through knee deep snow. I'm considering a pointing lab but was wondering if anyone has hunted with Munsterlanders or English Setters in the cold?

[chris dawe]

I can only offer this comment back when we had great bird numbers and everyone had a bird dog and ran the barrens ,our big local setters were king ...i heard many a story of guys bringing in pointers ,and GSP's but they couldn't handle the cold wind and rain or at least the lines they chose from weren't up to it ,a good friend of mine brought in a GSP who he found cowering behind a big rock to get out of the weather on a particularly bad day … I do know from personal experience that Drhathaar's can take it in stride and ask for more

[jefferyconnor]

Chris, were those setters English? I'll look up Drhathaars. Labs can take it up here, even though they don't have long hair, it's dense in the winter, that's why I'm considering one. As I mentioned, I'm leaning towards spending the money on a trained adult dog. Calmness when not hunting is a trait I'm looking for.

[chris dawe]

Yes they were English the lines I imagine came straight from there ,the guys here crossed them up English ,Gordon, Irish if it was a bird dog you bred it there were some incredible raw talent dogs that came from this …but to find those lines now is next to impossible ,they were big running ,large dogs 75 -80 lbs. for a male was common ...in recent time folks with money brought dogs in smaller setters from the US and elsewhere ,you can rest assured if I ever find those lines again ill be adding a pup.

I'm no expert but for my money the Drhathaar would be my choice ,you wont get one in Canada anymore I don't think …tail docking laws swept the country shut down the breeders and we had some real good kennels here

[Garry L Gordon]

North Missouri is obviously not Alaska, but our Gordons have all relished hunting in very cold weather, the colder the better for them. The cold has not seemed to diminish their ability to scent birds, either, as is sometimes the case for dogs in conditions with cold, dry air. Depending on the breeding, they can develop thick, heavy coats in winter. You'll need to clip the hair on their feet and apply some sort of treatment that keeps the snow from forming ice balls (or boot them) as with any breed with longer hair. I recommend Musher's Secret.

When it's minus 5 and you're just completed a two hour hunt and your dog is still joyfully rolling in the snow to cool off, you know they like and can handle it.

[edgarspencer]

Everyone in my family had Drahthaars, or as they are called over here, GWP, German Wirehaired Pointer. Ive heard lots of people say they are the rough coated version of the GSP, Short haired pointer, but My dad was well known NAVHDA trial judge and trainer and would disagree.
Hilltop Farm was, back in the day, the best known breeder of GWPs, and Betty Stroh had a very keen sense of what breeding made the best working dog. Her best stud dog was Hilltops Beau. Almost every dog my dad, sisters, and I had were out her kennel. My dog, Ringer, was absolutely incredible on grouse and would hold a three legged point till the rooster went to bed. He also had a way of looking at me when I missed, as if to say 'Really?"
My dad's best dog, Cyclone, could leap from a canoe without making the thing tip over, swim 150-200 yards and bring back a goose in cold Chesapeake water.
It's their coat that makes the biggest difference, but they are almost always beefier than a GSP.

[edgarspencer]

Good read on the GWP

https://projectupland.com/hunting-dogs/bird-hunting-dog-breeds/the-difference-between-a-deutsch-drahthaar-and-a-german-wirehaired-pointer-2/

[jefferyconnor]

North Missouri is obviously not Alaska, but our Gordons have all relished hunting in very cold weather, the colder the better for them. The cold has not seemed to diminish their ability to scent birds, either, as is sometimes the case for dogs in conditions with cold, dry air. Depending on the breeding, they can develop thick, heavy coats in winter. You'll need to clip the hair on their feet and apply some sort of treatment that keeps the snow from forming ice balls (or boot them) as with any breed with longer hair. I recommend Musher's Secret.

When it's minus 5 and you're just completed a two hour hunt and your dog is still joyfully rolling in the snow to cool off, you know they like and can handle it.
That's good to hear! I hunt alone and the described attributes of Gordon Setters sound good to me. Do you know of anyone who sells young adult trained dogs? I am sort of planning on flying outside to meet my dog and bring them home if compatibility and performence in the field is there. I'm willing to accept the expense.

[jefferyconnor]

Good read on the GWP

https://projectupland.com/hunting-dogs/bird-hunting-dog-breeds/the-difference-between-a-deutsch-drahthaar-and-a-german-wirehaired-pointer-2/

That was interesting! The Germans seem to be doing this better by holding the dogs to performance standards. Projectupland has some nice descriptions about breed attributes and I spent some time last night reading them.

[Garry L Gordon]

That's good to hear! I hunt alone and the described attributes of Gordon Setters sound good to me. Do you know of anyone who sells young adult trained dogs? I am sort of planning on flying outside to meet my dog and bring them home if compatibility and performence in the field is there. I'm willing to accept the expense.

Jeffery, I don't know of any breeders that routinely sell trained Gordons, but a google search might reveal one. You'd probably be more likely to find a young, started Gordon; but, again, I don't know of specific breeders you might check for this either. Sorry. But, hey, don't you have a really long grouse season in Alaska, and probably good access to wild birds? Why not get a pup and train it yourself? Gordons are real one person dogs, and the bond you create training your own pays great dividends in many ways.

[Mark Riessen]

If you are REALLY serious, then as the Germans say ' der Drahthaar is der king' Yeh I've had five of them. Three are still with me now and two gone. But it is a real commitment , the first breeder that I got one from told me ' they are not for everyone.' If you want to get the most out of the dogs potential you have to committed to training and testing. That is a killer for some people. M

[jefferyconnor]

Mobirdhunter,
Thanks for your thoughts about training a younger dog, that's a point well taken. We have really long seasons and are mixed on wild birds vs hunted birds on the road system. I found online that there are various people that sell older working dogs from private hunting areas and hope to find someone here with a positive experience with one of those places.

[jefferyconnor]

If you are REALLY serious, then as the Germans say ' der Drahthaar is der king' Yeh I've had five of them. Three are still with me now and two gone. But it is a real commitment , the first breeder that I got one from told me ' they are not for everyone.' If you want to get the most out of the dogs potential you have to committed to training and testing. That is a killer for some people. M

Thanks for the input, Mark! My work prevents me from training a puppy/young dog with that level of commitment, that's why I want a proven adult dog. I can promise to work with them from there, though.

[Rick Roemer]

My suggestion is a wirehaired pointing griffon. I have had two and absolutely think the breed is what your looking for. They get better with colder weather. Rain....never an issue. Mine sits out in the rain at home when he could come inside whenever he wants. I had drahthaar prior to the griffs. I like drahts too. And my home will never be absent an English Setter. They just belong in the picture, as Mr Dean R will attest.

[Ed Norman]

Jeffrey,
I had not hunted for about 40 years (67years old now) I started hunting with a guy that has 2 brittanies 3 years ago. After a short time I saw the level of time and commitment that he gives those dogs. He eventually cut out most other types of hunting so he could keep his dogs in birds. We are in Michigan, he heads south after our 2nd grouse season which ends the end of december. He takes his dogs and wife down to Missouri I think and stays at quail farms where they release quail to keep his dogs in birds. In the early spring and late summer, he goes to pheasant farms up here or buys quail or chukar. I have never seen anyone do as much as he does for his dogs. He has had 4 brittanies total over the years, the 2 he has now are some of the best hunting dogs I have ever seen. My wife and I acquired a 2.5 year old overweight brittany with no training about 3 years ago, the best thing I did was take him to the original breeder that luckily lives just down the road. Whether I had gotten a pup or the dog we got, I was overwhelmed the first year with the amount of time and work it takes for a hunting dog. Whether you get a pup or trained dog, I would talk to your breeder (a lot) to make sure you are doing the right things for your dog. I just about drove my breeder crazy that first year, but he knew how serious my wife and I were about getting him trained properly. We have gotten so many great memories from our dogs I wonder how I lived so long without dogs in my life. Good luck Jeffrey

[Chris Pope]

Based on your needs I would vote for the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. We share a home with two. They are well furnished with cold weather protection, work hard and prefer to hunt more than eat. Yet they are both mommy's boys inside the house and calm- one a lap dog. They hunt many days per year in northern New England and South Dakota. Both are unfazed by hunting in temperatures in the teens with a 20 mph wind blowing. In snow sometimes mushers wax is called for to keep ice balls from forming between pads.
Not sure how much experience you have but there is a big difference in hunting style, care for and training the flushing breeds and the pointing breeds. Keep doing the research and speak with as many reputable breeders as you can. Dog training clubs are a good resource such as NAVHDA.

[jefferyconnor]

Two follow up questions to everyone who has helped here--
I sure like the looks and described attributes of English Setters, can they take the cold and rough stuff?
Anyone know anything about pointing labs?

So far it seems most are recommending the German Wirehaired as cold tolerant big dogs.

[Victor Wasylyna]

Labs are about as perfect as dogs get. Teach them to point and wow. Mine does not, so I got a setter. Damn! My English Setter eats griffons and German wirey rascals for breakfast.

And before I forget, my Chevy truck is way more feisty than any Ford.

Good luck picking a dog.

-Victor

[edgarspencer]

Labs are about as perfect as dogs get. :rotf:

And before I forget, my Chevy truck is way more feisty than any Ford.

Good luck picking a dog.

-Victor

That's about what it comes down to. My only addition is simply, as 'pretty' as an English Setter is, they won't handle the temps you're suggesting. Griffons and Drathaars have very much the same coat, and are likely to tolerate the temps the same but the GWP is a bigger dog, and may have a bit more endurance.

[Ed Norman]

Jeffrey,
The breeder that lives just down the road has had setters, g.s.p.'s english pointers, and brittanies. He is in his early 70's and has been around many different breeds and knows a lot about training dogs. We were talking one day and I told him I could not imagine a lab (which I love that breed) being a pointing dog in any way. He told me the best hunt he ever had in south dakota was when a pointing lab was hunting that day. That really opened my eyes, that was early on when I first met him and I was just trying to soak up all the info he would provide. My buddy has 2 draathars? (spelling) and my brittany and his oldest dog hunted together on a pheasant farm. He said the same thing as everyone else, they are pretty hardy dogs. I am wondering if it would be hard to find someone around your area that has any of the breeds listed above and spend time with them and their dogs hunting. That is what I did with my friend with 2 brittanies, it seemed to help me make up my mind. Our dogs have a bit of trouble in the 2nd season, when its over about a foot of snow on the ground, but I just keep the hunts shorter, its hard on both of us.

[Rick Roemer]

I love English Setters, will always have at least one in my home. I think Griffs or Drahts are more cold weather suited. I’ve never owned a lab, But friends swear by them. Setters can definitely take cold weather. I take mine in all cold temps etc ducks. Ducks and swimming in cold water is very different than cold on land.

[jefferyconnor]

Jeffrey,
The breeder that lives just down the road has had setters, g.s.p.'s english pointers, and brittanies. He is in his early 70's and has been around many different breeds and knows a lot about training dogs. We were talking one day and I told him I could not imagine a lab (which I love that breed) being a pointing dog in any way. He told me the best hunt he ever had in south dakota was when a pointing lab was hunting that day. That really opened my eyes, that was early on when I first met him and I was just trying to soak up all the info he would provide. My buddy has 2 draathars? (spelling) and my brittany and his oldest dog hunted together on a pheasant farm. He said the same thing as everyone else, they are pretty hardy dogs. I am wondering if it would be hard to find someone around your area that has any of the breeds listed above and spend time with them and their dogs hunting. That is what I did with my friend with 2 brittanies, it seemed to help me make up my mind. Our dogs have a bit of trouble in the 2nd season, when its over about a foot of snow on the ground, but I just keep the hunts shorter, its hard on both of us.

I'm planning on flying out to a breeder to get my dog, so I can meet them and see what they are like first. Thanks for your input! My thing with labs is I have interacted with them a lot. They for sure can take the cold, and if they'll point that would be perfect. I'm getting a lot of positive feedback on the German dogs. I've had a couple friends with GSH, Brittanies, and Weimeraners and they were nice dogs but could not withstand cold and wet at all. There are a lot of pet dogs up here that don't do well in the cold, like the previous three I mentioned.

[Tom Jay]

IMO. Pointing labs are a bastardization of the breed (same with Silver labs). Today's hunting dogs are purpose bred with 100+ years of development to refine each of their breeds hunting traits. It is not natural for a Lab to point. You want a pointing dog (including versatile dogs) for cold weather there are many to choose from. You want a flushing/retrieving breed there are many to pick from too. In the end your dog will be more of a companion than a hunter. So stay true to the breed you pick.