Argentina Doves W/ a Repro. ??

[Paul Ehlers]

Here's a some food for thought.

Last June I went on my first Argentina dove shoot. The gun I took with me was a Rizzinni B. O/U 20ga. The gun performed flawlessly and digested 5000 rounds and asked for more. I had a great time with it, but in the back of my mind I was wishing I was shooting a SxS instead.

Well now I've signed up to go and do it again this June & I've decided that I will have the SXS with me this time.

I've thought about what gun would be best for this trip. I know I don't want to take an original Parker because of the punishment it would take. I've thought about possibly a Merkel because they are hell for stout. But I'm a Parker guy, so I've kind of settled into the thought of a reproduction twenty gauge for this trip.

Here's what I have in mind for a gun. 20ga DT, 28" with a slip over recoil pad to protect the skeleton butt and give some recoil relief.

What's your thoughts.

Do you think a repro could stand-up to shooting five to seven hundred rounds in three hours and maybe do that eight times in four days? I think it would be a great test of the durability of the Parker design!

Because of this crazy thinking I'm looking for some repro parts. Please look at my request in the WTB section.

Thanks,
Paul

[Dean Romig]

Paul, I think the worst that could happen under those circumstances might be an ejector failure but it will still work as an extractor gun. Nothing else should be affected by such shooting.

[Eric Eis]

Maybe take a pistol grip stocked Repo, a little more beefy in the wrist, just a thought. Eric

[Bill Murphy]

I would choose a double trigger 20 gauge 28" Repro over almost any other gun. The weight and bulk is almost ideal for that kind of shooting. I have no idea whether people normally take a second gun down there, but I would take your over under as a backup if you wish to take a second gun. My backup gun would be a 20 gauge Belgian Browning Superposed with 28" tight bored barrels.

[John Dallas]

When I went down with two buddies, we all shot 20 Gauges - a M21, a 680 series Beretta, and a Belgian A5. All performed flawlessly

[Mike Shepherd]

I took a Parker DHE 16 gauge with 32" barrels on my last trip. It weighs 7lbs 4oz with double triggers. Shot about 3000 rounds through it and it performed flawlessly. Would have shot it more but the outfitter ran out of 16 gauge shells twice. The rest of the time I shot an SKB 485 28 gauge with 28" barrels. It weighed 7 lbs.

I would take the heaviest 20 gauge Parker Repro I could find. My friends that shot the light o/u 20 gauges that the outfitter had were pretty beat up. The outfitter's O/U 28 gauges seemed to work out very well for them.


Best,

Mike

[Richard Flanders]

I sure would have that slip on recoil pad were I using a 20ga Repro. For whatever reason, mine seems to be the hardest recoiling S/S I have, even using handloaded target loads. I've seen a few impressive pics of purple shoulders from the shooting down there. I figure my 28" vh20 would be what I'd take, or maybe a 28" 28ga Repro. And I'd sure take along the Brownell screw drivers I need to dismantle whatever Parker I took. A good friend went down some years back and, after 4 days of shooting and 5500 birds bagged, the only gun still 100% functional was his 97yr old LC Smith 20 ga that he had restored and restocked. All the Winchesters, Benellis, etc were malfunctioning somehow. I've been told that some of the outfitters down there stock Citoris as backup/loaner guns and that they hold up well.

[Dean Romig]

The hardest recoiling 20 ga. gun I own is a 1927 VH with 26" barrels... beats me up mercilessly. My 20 ga. straight grip Repro is quite soft by comparison.

[charlie cleveland]

it does seem like some guns do kick harder than other guns... i too would get me a brownells slip on pad....wonder how many shell it took too get that 5500 birds...i was on a dove shoot once bought me a new revalation side by side after a case of shells the trigger guard fell off and one barrel quit firing....it was a 12 ga and i was shooting low brass shells...had one of the worst head aches i ever had plus a sore shoulder...traded that gun off...so shoot something that want beat you up....but use a side by side no bird hunter uses anything else....ha good hunting charlie

[Paul Ehlers]

This is all good stuff guy's, keep it coming!

Your all on the right track about recoil and getting the tar thumped out of you shooting this many rounds in a short time.

Here's what I found out through experience last year. "It's all about gun fit when it comes to recoil". The Rizzini I shot last year is a straight stocked double trigger that tops the scales @ 6lb 1oz. When I first got it and started shooting it getting ready for the trip it did have some kick, but more than anything it slapped my cheek hard to the point of only after a hundred rounds I would have a rosy, sore cheek. I experimented with two different types of recoil pads and changed the LOP with different pad thicknesses, but I still had the cheek slap. Then I decided to alter the pitch. I cut some thin wedge slices of walnut & placed them under the pad. What I found was by lengthening the heel a 1/4" the cheek slap went away and I really liked shooting the gun from then on.

When in Argentina I wore a Past strap-on pad & with the gun wearing a decelerator 1" pad. I was able to shoot 5000 rounds in four days without a mark to my cheek or shoulder. The only thing that got sore was my right index and middle finger from opening the gun and pulling the triggers, even this went away after the first day.

So now I'm wanting to do the same experimenting with the repro. to get it ready to go this June. The only difference will be the skeleton butt which I refuse to cut off for a pad, but I have some ideas to work around that problem as well.

I learned some other things as well and will share them in a follow-up post later.

[Mike Shepherd]

There is an original Parker DH at Steve Barnetts that I would like to take to Argentina. I copied the description:

1 FRAME 32" 21 AND 028 2 3/4 DOUBLE TRIGGER EJECTOR SPLINTER FOREARM PISTOL GRIP EXCELLENT CONDITION WITH LIGHT HANDLING MARKS IN WOOD AND LIGHT BLUE WEAR ON BARRELS NO CASE COLORS 7LB 9 OZ X 2 9/16 X 1 9/16 X 14 1/2

This is a twenty gauge. Looks about like the perfect statistics to me.

Best,

Mike

[Paul Ehlers]

There is an original Parker DH at Steve Barnetts that I would like to take to Argentina. I copied the description:

1 FRAME 32" 21 AND 028 2 3/4 DOUBLE TRIGGER EJECTOR SPLINTER FOREARM PISTOL GRIP EXCELLENT CONDITION WITH LIGHT HANDLING MARKS IN WOOD AND LIGHT BLUE WEAR ON BARRELS NO CASE COLORS 7LB 9 OZ X 2 9/16 X 1 9/16 X 14 1/2

This is a twenty gauge. Looks about like the perfect stastics to me.

Best,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the heads-up on this gun. I looked it over and your spot-on that it would be a really cool gun to take with me next June.

Unfortunately my pockets aren't deep enough to buy this gun and be able to afford the trip as well. I do need to buy ammunition while I'm on the trip and this cost can add-up real quick down there as you well know. So the ol'budget will only allow so much for a gun and the trip costs when added together.

Wow, a 7lb 9oz 20ga must be some kinda gun. I know the 32" barrels will add some weight, but they must have thick walls and that must be some really dense wood as well. Pretty gun though!!

The hunt continues for the right gun, but I may have found the repro I've been looking for to do this trip. I'll keep you informed when the deal is done.

Thanks,
Paul

[Mike Shepherd]

I know what you mean. It does add up. I have been twice and had a fantastic time each trip. The only thing keeping me from going a third time is the money.

The first trip I bought just for Argentina a 28 gauge Beretta O/U with 30" barrels. I sold it when I got back for almost what I paid for it. That trip I also took a Beretta 20 gauge O/U with 30" barrels which I am selling now.

The second trip I took an SKB 28 gauge SxS which I sold after the trip. I also took the the Parker DHE 16. I still have it and am keeping it.

Best,

Mike

[William Stevenson]

Paul, when I shot in Argentina I used a pair of light 20 ga side by sides. Very enjoyable, but after 2000 rounds the thought came to me that 28 ga guns would be even better. As you know, light weight and light recoil would be great in that environment. If your outfitter can provide 28 ga shells, I would recomend a Reproduction in that guage with a Beavertail forend and English stock. Bill

[Paul Ehlers]

William,

Great minds think alike.

I'll be taking two guns with me on this trip. The one will be a 20ga repro 28" pistol grip, beavertail, double trigger that a member here hooked me up with.

The other gun I will be taking with me is my 28ga repro. It's a 28" barreled straight grip splinter that I've had the mod-full chokes opened to .007" & .016". I have two reservations about using the 28 as my main gun. One is the fact that it is so light weight that even with dove type loads, it can have about the same recoil as a larger gauge gun that weighs more. The other is the light weight can make me throw the gun around some and if I don't watch myself I start mis-mounting it & shooting it pretty choppy by stopping my swing.

One of the other reasons for the 20ga is the Pigeons down there. Last year we had a couple of good pigeon shoots and with the so-so 20ga loads the outfitter provided. I felt the need for even a larger gauge or some heavier/larger shot. The 28 will be fine for the occational pigeon flying with the doves, but if we get the chance to do a primary pigeon shoot I will want the 20ga and some tighter chokes.

Thanks for the advice,
Paul

[Dean Romig]

I believe the 20 ga. with 28" barrels will take it's toll on you in the fast and furious action of dove shooting due to it's weight. I would stick with the 28 ga for the doves and, like you say, use the 20 ga. for pigeons.

[Paul Ehlers]

Dean,

The sweet part is: By taking the two guns. I will have the option to switch from gauge to gauge, gun to gun as I feel might be needed at the time.

There is a little consideration to the trip costs associated with shooting the 28ga as the primary gun. The 28ga ammo is $2.00 more a box than the 20ga and in Argentina this could add to the trip cost's real fast.

Here's my plan.

The package I'm doing will be a six day's of shooting, which is what they call twelve hunts. The outfitter includes in the cost of the trip package 4000 rounds of 20 or 12ga, but if you choose to shoot 28 or 16ga the rounds included drop's down to 3000 rounds. So my plan is to use the 28ga for most of the rounds that are included in the package. Then when I exceed these, I'll start shooting the 20ga when the ammo costs are totally on me.

As far as the weight of the gun is concerned.

The 20ga repro I'm buying supposedly tips the scales at 6lbs 12oz. In my book that's still not what I think of as a heavy weight gun. It's not like I'll be carrying it for miles a day, but I will be mounting & swinging it a bunch. One bit of advice I got before last years trip was to make sure to practice mounting and swinging the gun before you go. I did that last year and it payed off IMO. I started about three months before the trip and the last two weeks before the trip I was up to 200 mount's & swings per evening session. I also went to the range at least once a week for the two months prior to the trip as well.This year I'm also planning on doing some extra upper body work at the gym. Hopefully this will help compensate for the half pound more the repro weighs over the gun I shot last year.

All good stuff though!

Thanks,

Paul

[Dean Romig]

Good points Paul, and I'm sure you're right. 4,000 rounds comes to about twenty-six boxes per day or thirteen per hunt. Call it a hunch but I think you'll be buying ammo.

Upper body workouts is a really good idea. I can't imagine what it must be like at the end of a day of nearly non-stop swinging and shooting. When are you scheduled to go?

[Paul Ehlers]

Dean,
Here's what I experienced last year on ammo. The case lots of ammo down there are like our's used to be with twenty boxes per case. When we would show up at our shooting blind for a hunt there would be a case of ammo waiting there for us. When I first saw this my mind processed shooting 500 rounds and I thought there would be no-way to do that in one of the half day shoots. "After all I'm shooting an O/U not an auto-loader" Boy did I have a eye opener when my bird boy starting yelling out for more ammo and I had only been shooting for a couple of hours so far. I learned real quick to pace myself and only take high percentage shots or practice certain shots so I wouldn't just blow through ammo.

Even with taking it at a nice pace, I would still average about 26 boxes per shoot or 650 rounds. So with two shoots per day that comes out to about 1300 rounds per day. Last year we did a four day/eight shoot trip that resulted in my shooting a little over 5000 rounds total. Now you can add in the extra two days/fours hunts that we will be doing this year and you can see that if it holds true I should shoot some where between 7500 & 8000 rounds this year. This should give the old repro's and my wallet a good work out!

If I just buy 20ga shells the extra ammo above that supplied in the package will probably add up to another $2000.00. So you can see where saving $2.00 a box can make a difference to the trip costs.

The trip is scheduled for mid-June. Six months and waiting!

Paul

[Ray Alvey]

Was there ever a follow up post from the gentlemen that was taking a Parker Reproduction to Argentina for Dove Hunting? If not, has anyone been there / done that? If so could you tell us how the Parker Repo held up under the heavy shooting conditions?

[Paul Ehlers]

Sorry I didn't follow-up on this months ago.

I did take the repro to Argentina last June and had a blast shooting it. "Pun Intended"

Here's the way it broke down as far as the amount of ammo I ran through the gun is a fairly short amount of time. Before I went I shot the gun quite a bit at clay targets. Both trying to get myself into shooting condition and also hopefully to shake out any problems the gun might have. In doing so I ended up buying three different slip-on recoil pads before I finally settled on a lace up type with some sorbathane inserts so I wouldn't damage the skeleton butt and not beat the daylights out of my shoulder. I went through 2500 rounds during this practice in about six weeks time with no problems.

In Argentina we did six days of shooting & I managed to run 10,000 rounds through it in twelve shoots. Two of the shoots were over 2000 rounds each with the high one being just over 2500. The gun took all the abuse I could hand it. When you shoot 2500 rounds in a little over three hours you can imagine how many times the gun get's opened & slammed shut let alone how hot it gets. Overall it performed to perfection with only a small flaw that wasn't totally unexpected. I'm sorry to report that on the last shoot of the last day the left ejector malfuctioned and I had to finish the shoot using a different gun. It would still extract, it just wouldn't eject. But I'm happy to report that Brad Bachelder was able to work his magic and the gun is ready for the next fight.

The gun between practice and the hunt digested approximately 12,500 rounds in a fairly short period of time. The 10,000 rounds that were run through it in Argentina were done as fast as the gun could take them and all that happened to it was a left ejector malfunction. Other than that the gun is still like new including the case colors.

I'm very impressed at how well the gun did. I did this as a personal challenge to see what it would be like to be able to shoot as much as you wanted and to see for myself how well a Parker Reproduction could hold up to this kind of shooting. I'm now satisfied in both regards. I now know that I could be just as happy on an Argentina hunt shooting a thousand rounds a day or less and still be a very happy camper.

Would I take a repro again? You bet, in a New York second, but it would have to be a beavertail, double trigger gun just like the one I had with me. The barrels just plain get to hot for a splinter forearm. I'm not saying a single trigger wouldn't do the job, I'm just saying that with traveling this far and spending this much, Why take the chance on a single trigger messing up.

Once again I'm sorry for the late report!

Paul

[Dave Suponski]

Paul, Thanks for the report and that is one hell of a testement to the stoutness of the Parker Reproduction. I hope Richard reads this report as well. This should put to bed any concerns about the quality of these great guns.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Paul: Still trying to digest the numbers. In a lifetime of hunting, I doubt I've reached my first 1000 rounds. I imagine you must have qualified for a doubles pin :)
Cheers,
Jack

[Dean Romig]

Thanks Paul. That is a great testamonial of the Repro. Aside from factory endurance testing that is about as much punishment as we could ever expect to see a double gun put through.

[charlie cleveland]

i dont own a repo but they are beautiful guns..ive watched and read everthing about them even before they were made....those small bores are beautiful....you fellows shoot a dove for all the rest of us parker lovers....charlie

[Richard Flanders]

I think Pauls info would make a nice little Parker Pages article so that it's in the permanent record. It really is one hell of a testimonial to the reliability of a Repro. A friend did the Argentina dove thing a few yrs back with an 1897? LC Smith 20ga he had personally restored and restocked. Others brought Winchesters, Berettas-S/S's, autos, you name it. I think they shot 5500 doves between them; dont' remember the ammo count but it was impressive, and the only gun fully functional in the end was the LCSmith.

[charlie cleveland]

takes a tough gun to go through that many shells...i bought a new revelation 12 ga double back in the 60 s and before the end of the first day of dove season the right side barrel quit working and the rear trigger guard screw fell out and would not tighten up...also talk with some boys that hunted south america for doves.they carried bennlis rem. winchester and other makes...they said it was a tough hunt on guns that not many if any came through with out having some kind of problem... charlie

[charlie cleveland]

i also meant to say this just goes to show you that double barrels such as the parker repo is as good as any thing out there.... charlie

[Ray Alvey]

Thanks for the information on the Parker Reproduction. I've been curious as to how they would hold up under heavy prolonged shooting. I've been an O/U shooter most of my life, but became captivated by the little 28ga repo's. - both in style and feel. I've used the repo on a couple of Dove hunts in the states, and have really enjoyed shooting it. I've been to Argentina 2x's, and we've had problems with most of the guns our group has taken. I'll take the 28 Repo on my next trip.

[Richard Flanders]

Here is my friends story from Argentina. I sent Paul's story to him and he replied with this.

"I went down to Argentina with a group of 5 11 years ago. we took nine shotguns,
eight 12 ga. autos and my 20 ga L.C. Smith with ejectors. We shot 14,250 rounds
in 3.5 days and the only gun that was still functioning properly at the end was
my L.C. Smith. In one shoot I shot 250 rounds in 90 minutes. And the author is
correct about the barrels getting enough to burn, severely burn, your hand, even
with a semi beavertail forearm. I had to use a glove and a rag to hold the gun.
It was a good shoot!!!"

[Paul Ehlers]

Just to add a little about taking a SXS on an Argentina dove shoot. The man that inspired me to this was a friend that was on my trip the year before.

On that trip he brought down a Fox Sterlingworth 20ga ejector gun and a Model 21 20ga with him. They were the only guns he had on that trip and he brought the same two guns with him this year as well. On both trips he only shot the amount of shells that came included in the hunt package. Last year was a three day hunt that came with 2500 rounds and this year was a six day shoot which had 4000 rounds included. So when you add the two years together that would be 6500 rounds divided up between the two guns.

Niether gun had a single failure & I'm sure that both of them could make another trip down there. I guess what I'm getting at is. Just because your going to Argentina doesn't mean you have to leave the guns you love to shoot at home. You don't need to to do what I did and go nuts trying to see if you and the gun can hold up to the punishment. If you were to say take a quality O/U and one of your doubles so you could change them up. I can assure you that you will have a really good time with each. Just make sure the double is in really good shape mechanically and it might be a good idea to glass bed the stock head for a perfect fit to take the recoil from all the rounds. That's what my friend had done to both the Model-21 & Sterlingworth before he took them the first year and the wood held up wonderfully.

[Bill Davis]

I'll add my two cents into this discussion. I've made 4 trips to SA and have 2 planned for 2012. On one trip I took my CSMC M21 Pigeon Grade 20 bore and it performed flawlessly at doves, pigeons, ducks and perdiz. With 28 inch barrels the gun weighs a bit over 7 lbs. That's a good weight for high volume shooting. Neither the gun nor me was any the worse for wear!! The secret is really gun fit. You do NOT want to make that trip with a gun that does not fit you well!

[Paul Ehlers]

I'll add my two cents into this discussion. I've made 4 trips to SA and have 2 planned for 2012. On one trip I took my CSMC M21 Pigeon Grade 20 bore and it performed flawlessly at doves, pigeons, ducks and perdiz. With 28 inch barrels the gun weighs a bit over 7 lbs. That's a good weight for high volume shooting. Neither the gun nor me was any the worse for wear!! The secret is really gun fit. You do NOT want to make that trip with a gun that does not fit you well!

I'll second the statement about gun fit !! A poorly fitting gun would make things miserable on a high volume shoot.

[Gerry Addison]

I would worry a little about the wood cracking at the wrist from all of the opening and closing unless you are very careful. They all have thin wrists and Claro is no the most durable wood. Other than that I think the gun would hold up well.

[David Scott]

amen on the past Declerator pad. Dont leave home without it.