Shooting them?

[Ryan Brege]

Maybe going to get a range of opinions here but here goes.

I mentioned in another thread that I picked up a GH from 1891 with Damascus barrels that have been cut. They are basically open chokes now. Otherwise I don't believe the gun has ever been apart. Since I wanted this for a thick timber grouse gun I wasn't looking for high budget and only have $400 into it.

My question, do any of you guys just strap a Damascus gun in a rest and fire half a box of RST's remotely? In all reality, there is no value to this as a anything besides a shooter. So if I can't shoot it what's the harm? Now, i am just throwing this out there and am still considering contacting someone about inspecting the barrels. In all reality though, no one can guarantee x number of safe rounds.

[Rick Losey]

the only way to proof a barrel is with proof loads

i guess I do not see any function in your test unless the gun looks to be unsafe, in which case why shoot it at all

those of us that shoot damascus either measure or have them measured for wall thickness and signs of the bores having been honed

[Daniel Carter]

Take the time to research this yourself, you have already accepted the legend of unsafe through guy on the street. Go to any post by Drew Heuse(sp.) and click on his tutorial, read all of it. Look at and read Sherman Bell's finding out for myself. Then have the barrel wall thickness measured by a smith competent in vintage doubles. NO one is going to give you a guarantee on any gun fluid or damascus. There is a great deal of information on this site and other sites for you to make up your mind.

[Ryan Brege]

The reading I have been doing seems to indicate a lot more of these get shot than folks realize. I considered buying the thickness gauge for myself but I think they were out of stock last time I looked. The whole subject is curious, hence the question. I took a chance on this one and in reality wanted it to have an inexpensive gun to learn on. The Damascus barrels are gorgeous and I'd like to own a higher grade gun but want to be a little more knowledgeable first.

[Daniel Carter]

I have spent a lot of time reading all i could find on this subject and the tipping point was that the warning on shell boxes did not come about until 1937. There is a recent thread about this here. Have it checked out by some one knowledgable and then make your own decision.

[Jay Gardner]

The only way to know is to have a good barrel man who has evaluated a lot of Damascus barrels measure the wall thickness and determine the depth of the any pitting. In other words, get a well informed opinion. Do not rely on a local hack gunsmith unless he really knows Damascus barrels otherwise he’s going to give you the usual CYA rhetoric about them not being safe.

The fact that they have been cut is probably not a concern because of the lower pressure at the muzzle. The determining factor is at the end of the chamber through the forcing cones where pressure is the greatest.

[Drew Hause]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

Let's assume the barrel is deeply pitted (or has been honed) and the wall thickness is dangerously thin. You tie the barrel in an old tire and remotely take 10 shots with low pressure RSTs; but the pressure generated is above the yield strength of the barrel wall. Each shot produces "low cycle fatigue" plastic deformation of the steel, which may not be measurable when checking for barrel bulging with a micrometer. With shot #11 the barrel bursts, sending a chunk of shrapnel toward the head of your hunting companion...or grandchild. And you own that shrapnel. Why take the risk?

[Garth Gustafson]

Ryan,
Ditto on having the barrels inspected by a smith that knows doubles and Damascus barrels. Bachelder in Grand Rapids comes to mind as they are in state but there are others. Check the FAQ section on the PGCA homepage. After inspection be sure to use loads your gun was designed to shoot. RST 2-1/2” shells are low pressure and are highly recommended.

[Ryan Brege]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

Let's assume the barrel is deeply pitted (or has been honed) and the wall thickness is dangerously thin. You tie the barrel in an old tire and remotely take 10 shots with low pressure RSTs; but the pressure generated is above the yield strength of the barrel wall. Each shot produces "low cycle fatigue" plastic deformation of the steel, which may not be measurable when checking for barrel bulging with a micrometer. With shot #11 the barrel bursts, sending a chunk of shrapnel toward the head of your hunting companion...or grandchild. And you own that shrapnel. Why take the risk?

Agree, and certainty understand. That was the basis of my question. I fully understand the minimum thickness and from PM discussions sounds as if that's necessary no matter what. Sort of just thinking out loud on the test firing and enjoy the discussion on it. I get the sort of bending a piece of metal until it breaks scenario. I would suppose minimum thickness allow for enough initial resistance to prevent fatigue.

Trying to become knowledgeable on the subject before I have grandkids!

[Garry L Gordon]

When you take your gun in to the smith, be sure that he doesn't measure outside diameter and inside diameter only to get the minimum. This method will NOT tell you if the barrels are thin in strategic spots. I had a smith (that I supposed would have known that not all shotgun bores are concentric due to the striking and regulation process) measure my barrels this way. I got an OK to shoot from the smith, but did my own thickness measurements when I got the gun home and found spots where the thickness was about .013"

[Drew Hause]

Yep. Eccentricity happens.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/409066906.jpg

[Richard Flanders]

Roger that Drew, and especially if you send a gun to the wrong gunsmith to mess with the chokes. I can unfortunately attest to that.

[Ronald Scott]

Question on proofing: When barrels are proofed, they fire "proof loads" through them. From what I have read a proof load is equivalent to twice the pressure of a "normal" load. Am I correct? And do they only fire one of these proof loads or do they fire multiple proof loads through the barrel being tested? What do they look for? I assume they measure the barrel to see if the chamber expanded ... do they have some other way to know if the barrel is safe? It can't be that they just shoot it and see if the barrel blows up -- I hope it's more scientific than that! That's why I don't think tying the gun down to a tire and pulling the trigger with a long string really tells you anything. I'd like to understand more about this topic -- especially what effect repeated firing has on the barrel. Which is a better test? One heavy proof load or multiple firings of heavy loads. How do we know that our guns are not getting weaker and weaker the more we shoot?

[Rick Losey]

a proof load

http://gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html

correct, its not about seeing if the barrel blows up, there are many pre and after proof measurements that are taken and compared to make sure no changes occurred

a single large load, but be aware there are no proof laws/standards in the US

each maker had their own procedure

[Dean Romig]

Ryan,
Ditto on having the barrels inspected by a smith that knows doubles and Damascus barrels. Bachelder in Grand Rapids comes to mind as they are in state but there are others. Check the FAQ section on the PGCA homepage. After inspection be sure to use loads your gun was designed to shoot. RST 2-1/2” shells are low pressure and are highly recommended.

Just as a precaution - two years ago i sent a set of Parker fluid steel barrels to Parker Bachelder to measure them for safety and he got back to me a few weeks later saying he believed them to be safe. I said Fine, but what were the wall thicknesses incrementally along their lengths and circumferentially, just so that I would know? At that point he told me that he didn’t know but inside measurement subtracted from the outside measurement showed plenty of thickness....
I asked, But what were the thicknesses in thousandths in the incremental locations that I had asked before? At this point (again, two years ago) he admitted they didn’t have a wall-thickness gauge....
They may have since bought one - I don’t know.





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[Drew Hause]

Jeff Kuss graciously shared an explanation from Parker Bros. of the testing protocol. It's here about 1/3 down
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview
It is important to understand that the "rough forged tubes", both damascus and fluid steel, sourced in Belgian by all the U.S. makers were also proved.

A Parker Service and Proof Load table was published in the 1930s and reproduced in The Parker Story p. 515. 12g 2 3/4” shell Service Pressure is 10,500 psi. Definitive proof used 7.53 Drams Black Powder and 2 oz. shot with a pressure of 15,900 psi. The pressure was no doubt measured using LUP and modern transducer values would be 10-14% higher, or more than 17,500 psi.

LTC Calvin Goddard reported the same numbers in “Army Ordnance”, 1934. He wrote that Parker followed the SAAMI standards of that period: 13,700 psi proof, 9500 psi service for 2 5/8” chamber; 15,900 psi proof, 10,500 psi service for 2 3/4” chamber (by LUP) + 10-14% for modern transducer measurement.

[Ronald Scott]

a proof load

http://gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html

correct, its not about seeing if the barrel blows up, there are many pre and after proof measurements that are taken and compared to make sure no changes occurred

a single large load, but be aware there are no proof laws/standards in the US

each maker had their own procedure

Thanks -- Interesting site even though very vague on the details of how a gun is proofed.

[Drew Hause]

“Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House at Work”, 1951
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3aHnxsj7y8

[Garth Gustafson]

Just as a precaution - two years ago i sent a set of Parker fluid steel barrels to Parker Bachelder to measure them for safety and he got back to me a few weeks later saying he believed them to be safe. I said Fine, but what were the wall thicknesses incrementally along their lengths and circumferentially, just so that I would know? At that point he told me that he didn’t know but inside measurement subtracted from the outside measurement showed plenty of thickness....
I asked, But what were the thicknesses in thousandths in the incremental locations that I had asked before? At this point (again, two years ago) he admitted they didn’t have a wall-thickness gauge....
They may have since bought one - I don’t know.

.

They did. When I picked up my refinished Dam barrels in June, 2018 I had them take measurements.

[John Campbell]

I hesitate to point this out, but a Manson Wall Thickness gauge is $110 at Brownells (about the price of a flat of cartridges). It comes with instructions. Anyone who seriously collects old double guns ought to have one of their own. And use it.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/barrel-wall-thickness-gauges/wall-thickness-gauge-prod20463.aspx

[Rick Losey]

I hesitate to point this out, but a Manson Wall Thickness gauge is $110 at Brownells (about the price of a flat of cartridges). It comes with instructions. Anyone who seriously collects old double guns out to have one of their own. And use it.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/barrel-wall-thickness-gauges/wall-thickness-gauge-prod20463.aspx

a simple and inexpensive tool kit (that will more than pay for itself the first time it saves you from a bad purchase)

the wood case came out of a antique/junk shop for a couple dollars and took a couple hours to refit - closed its roughly 7 x 24 inches so it doesn't take up much room in the truck

[Ryan Brege]

I hesitate to point this out, but a Manson Wall Thickness gauge is $110 at Brownells (about the price of a flat of cartridges). It comes with instructions. Anyone who seriously collects old double guns ought to have one of their own. And use it.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/barrel-wall-thickness-gauges/wall-thickness-gauge-prod20463.aspx

I just looked at that yesterday, they were recently out of stock. I'll probably pick one up because I enjoy learning and finding things out for myself. I could couple my measurements with a hands on visual inspection by someone familiar with Damascus.

[Bruce Day]

Seven pounds, 28” , open chokes, makes a great field gun and these Remington STS’s make fine quail loads.

[Richard Flanders]

Those are great field loads for any old gun Bruce. I have several cases in stock.

[Gerald McPherson]

I agree. I would barely feel that load and I doubt my DH Damascus 28 inch 8 and 24 thou wood either.

[Steve McCarty]

I own a damascus GH made in 1896 that I posted pictures of here several years ago and discussed it with the experts. It had a broken part and looked as if it had sat in a closet for most of a hundred years. The rest of the gun was in good shape with shiny bores, but little color. I had the gun repaired and inspected by a smith who advertised being expert on old doubles. I then read everything that Sherman Bell wrote in Double Gun. I shot a couple boxes of RST thru it. Great! My issue is that it is choked full and full and I'm a skeet/clays shooter. I am never going to shoot ducks with this gun. I've been shooting old Fox and Ithaca doubles, but I'd like to shoot my Parker GH. Would it destroy it's value to open the left barrel to IC? The gun is not a prestine Parker, very little original color, but no cracks and great bores. What's a guy to do?

[Steve McCarty]

Question on proofing: When barrels are proofed, they fire "proof loads" through them. From what I have read a proof load is equivalent to twice the pressure of a "normal" load. Am I correct? And do they only fire one of these proof loads or do they fire multiple proof loads through the barrel being tested? What do they look for? I assume they measure the barrel to see if the chamber expanded ... do they have some other way to know if the barrel is safe? It can't be that they just shoot it and see if the barrel blows up -- I hope it's more scientific than that! That's why I don't think tying the gun down to a tire and pulling the trigger with a long string really tells you anything. I'd like to understand more about this topic -- especially what effect repeated firing has on the barrel. Which is a better test? One heavy proof load or multiple firings of heavy loads. How do we know that our guns are not getting weaker and weaker the more we shoot?

Sherman Bell did wonderful work in this arena. He shot Remington proof loads in many guns testing Damascus barrels and comparing them to fluid steel tubes. His Proof loads were 18,000 PSI, most standard modern loads are around 8,000. Interestingly most of his damascus barrels held up well, even an old LC Smith that he honed paper thin and then shot several proof loads thru it. I have never met a gunsmith who will state that any barrel is safe to shoot, not wanting the liability, but several have said that they looked okay to them.

[Dean Romig]

Try spreader loads.





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[Ronald Scott]

. Would it destroy it's value to open the left barrel to IC? The gun is not a prestine Parker, very little original color, but no cracks and great bores. What's a guy to do?

I can’t see how it would “destroy its value” by opening the right barrel to IC. I have a 16 gauge Damascus GH that is bored IC & Full and love hunting with it. I think that combination of chokes is very useful. On a recent quail hunt I used a 20 gauge choked IC and Full — shot a lot of birds and that full choke barrel came in very handy at times.

You might want to pattern the gun on paper before changing anything though — you might be surprised how open a full choke can be. Not all full chokes are created equal. Dean’s suggestion to use spreader loads is also a good idea as long as you plan on buying shells anyway. I reload and don’t like the additional step but that’s just me.

[Bill Murphy]

Using PC Post spreader wads in a loader that has a hollow wad seater (like a PW) does not require an extra step in loading. Just replace your regular wad with the PC Post, no fuss, no muss.

[Mike Koneski]

I make spreader loads for all my guns using Ballistic Products Dispersor-X spreader wads and X-Stream inserts. It may add an extra step to the reloading process but for the number of spreaders I make it really doesn't add that much time to the process.