Welding Up a Barrel Wedge

[Ed Blake]

I removed the barrel wedge from a DH this evening. The top lever is to the left, but the action has no wobble when the forend is off and the gun tested for looseness. The wedge has wear, and I was wondering if anyone here has ever put a small amount of material on as a weld and worked it down to a new fit? Or, has anyone soldered a bit of shim to the wear plate. It seems like those alternatives would be just as good as a new wear plate.

[Brent Francis]

Ed,
I never did that but it sounds like it would work. I was looking for some forend parts today snd happened to notice that Numrich was offering new barrel wedges for $36. I had a trojan that needed one when winchester was making the new parker and I sent them a letter and they sent me one for free. I wish I had bought one of their guns back then

[Robert Rambler]

Don't see why it couldn't be welded and refitted,but if I understand what you mean by "wedge", I think Connecticut Shotgun sells replacements,though I've never used one. Near the bottom of the page.

http://www.csmcspecials.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=13

[Dean Romig]

I've heard of it being done with the "spray weld" method.

[Francis Morin]

Tool steels fall into three basis AISI groups as far as the hardening/quenching criteria are concerned. IMO, by the time you determine that, and take a DHP reading on the surface to determine the proper hardness, then anneal, spray or TIG, machine, reharden, etc- the $36 replacement wedge or 12.5 degree wear plate pinned into the lug seems a real bargain.

Just curious- have you dis-assembled your Parker to examine the mating wear surface on the bolt?

[Ed Blake]

Francies - I have not examined the bolt for wear, but there are wear marks on top of the wedge. Seeing them makes me believe that the best way to close a SxS is to keep your thumb on the top lever and ease the gun shut, not snap it together. I'm continually amazed at the quality built into these guns. It's nearly 110 years old and only needs routine maintenance.

[Francis Morin]

Ed, I'd sure like to have a $20 for every time I have heard or read the "debate" about closing a side-by-side gun. Your over 100 year old Parker has the pinned in place via strut leaf spring top lever spring. So extra care may well be warranteed, both from the age and metal fatigue factor, and also the nature of leaf or V springs in shotguns. But your Parker does have the pinned in place tool steel wedge, correct?

My old GHE 12 does not have the tool steel wedge, and it locks up like a bank vault- But we both could have 100 year old Parkers and one might have seen tons of shooting, another only a box of shells each Oct-Nov.

Coil springs, the revised design Parkers had a coil top lever spring contained in a cylinder, in some ways are a better design, as if they are contained and fracture at either end from metal fatigue, they will still function. As L.C. Smiths have floating firing pins and leaf or V mainsprings, I always use spring loaded snap caps in my Smith guns and let down both hammers when they are stored in the "steel tomb"--I don't usually do this with the Parkers or the Fox gun, never with either my M12's or M70 rifles.

As to closing- unless I am shooting or hunting and hoping to get shots and have loaded both barrels, I close my doubles by easing back the top lever- but when afield I close them by pointing the muzzles downward and lifting the buttstock up, as the late Paul A. Curtis recommended. However- I have a friend who is not mechanically inclined- he owns two shotguns, both 16 gauge- both inherited- a Model 1897 pumpgun and a very early M21 with two triggers and extractors instead of selective ejectors. Both guns were well used before Ed got them, they have truly been "rode hard and put up wet" and the M21 is still as tightly breeched as when it left New Haven in 1933.

One of my Winchester books shows the adjustment feature via a set screw for wear take-up in the M21- good thing Ed's M21 is sound and on face, as the screw is immovable, due to gunk, oil and powder over the years. Ed probably swabs the bores of his two Winchesters once a year- But I have hunted with him for 12 years and never have I seen him miss a Rooster pheasant with either gun. He's built like Dick Butkus and he is not bashful about closing his guns- yet they still function quite well. SOooooo- is there a correct answer to the closing question? I don't know.

I do know this- from gunning manners I have been taught by my mentors. Whenever you are looking at another man's gun, assuming it is a break action double, always ask him how he prefers it to be closed, and when you hand it back to him, hand it back opened and with the muzzles pointed downward.:bigbye::bigbye:

[Mark Landskov]

Indeed, there is a bit of controversy over closing actions. The only time I 'snap' an action shut is when the gun is loaded with live cartridges. Otherwise, I ease levers into place, allowing them to rebound softly. I also do not force the lever, with my thumb, into the 'locked' position. This is another procedure that will stir up an argument! Cheers!

[Dave Suponski]

Just my opinion but for all the shooting I do I close the gun and release the lever. When hunting the gun is closed and loaded with my finger on the safety. With all other safety rules adhered to including opening the gun and handing it to my son or hunting partner when crossing an obstacle that I can't safely cross by myself. And there seems to be more of them every year....:rolleyes:

[Bill Murphy]

I like Mark's system. most of my guns get opened and closed more empty than they do loaded. If I snapped my Parkers closed only when I am loading them, I couldn't wear one out in a hundred years. I wouldn't let lever position cause me to do any repairs at all.

[Richard Flanders]

Interesting discussion this. I admit to not being any too observant as to how I close mine; that will change now. Perhaps I'll be a little gentler on closing them, especially when they are empty. I do try to always put a dab of chevron 'ultra grease' on the hook and wear plate when I clean them; it's like slightly thin wheel bearing grease, sticks v well and will not 'wash' off easily so protects the surface well. I've been shooting my vhe20 for 37yrs and the lever is still to the right so I must not be abusing them too badly. Seems that it's necessary with my Repros it's necessary to snap them shut at least a bit or the lever doesn't come over far enough. Perhaps they're too precisely made and tight. The Merkel I had could get held open by a few grains of powder under the ejectors. Way too precisely made.... I've taken to carrying a Qtip or two in my vest when I hunt; makes cleaning under the ejectors easy. As usual, I learn something every day from this forum....

[Ed Blake]

Well, it works. I have a supply of stainless steel shim stock, but I could never get it tinned with solder. I then used a scrap of a Mason jar lid that was the correct thickness, tinned both the wearplate and steel scrap, bound them together with thin wire and applied heat. Trimmed the new surface and the top lever is nicely right of center. We'll see how it holds up knowing the steel is very soft. Now to see how it can be done on a gun with no wear plate. This took all of 10 minutes.

[Mark Landskov]

Keep us posted, Ed. I'd be curious to see how it would work on a barrel hook. I brought my 1877 Lifter back 'on face' with a .004" shim, but would like to make the repair a bit more permanent. What sort of heating device did you use?

[Larry Frey]

Mark/Ed
A few years ago on the Double Gun website one of the gunsmiths I believe it might have been Mike Orlen posted a series of photo's showing the complete process they use to solder a shim to the barrel hook. Perhaps Bill, Dean, or someone else saved that post and could post it here for those who did not see it. Although not the most permanent fix it was quick, easy and way better than fooling around with a loose shim that falls out every time you take the gun apart.

[Ed Blake]

I have taken a few guns to a guy near here who solders the shim to the hook. He uses a jeweler's torch about the size of a pen. The flame is tiny, but very hot. To see what was done you have to look very closely.

[Richard Flanders]

I have a couple of those tiny jewelers torches. I should spiff one up and try it. I think the very small hot flame is the ticket. You don't want to melt the solder that holds the lug to the bbls.

[Francis Morin]

More good data from you gents- how we learn. First off, any torch that uses oxygen and acetylene, no matter the pressure or tip size, will produce a neutral flame of 6000 degree F- about 2.25 times past the critical temperature of mild steel- critical temperature being that which causes a solid to become fluid in state- - molten steel in a crucible is at critical temperature.

Secondly- you won't get any stainless alloyed steel (mainly nickel and chromium- either 300 or 400 series no exception) to "Tin" for soldering with the heat and flux flow you can accomplish with mild steel and even cast iron-For the same reason you cannot cut stainless or cast iron with a conventional oxy-acetylene cutting torch-

Laser welding is the way to go- no preheat, no need to anneal or reharded to whatever Brinell or Rockwell range the parent metal had-

I may be wrong about the Parker process, but I know from Houchin's fine book on the Elsie's- he mentions a man who was foreman of the barrel brazing shop in Fulton for over 35 years- that the lugs were brazed, not soldered. Brazing requires a higher temperature than solder or silver soldering, the entire surfaces must be 'tinned" with flux for the bronze alloy filler to bond. BUT- both soldering and brazing do NOT reach the temperatures in the HAZ that welding- SMAW, MIG, TIG or Innershield MIG develop- where the parent metal and the filler (shielded from oxygen and in some cases- also hydrogen) reach the critical temperature and then cool down as the heat input moves with the travel of the weld deposit produced.

6150 Chrome Moly steel was developed about the time Parker added the 12.5 wedge to the barrel lug- that's my "SWAG" as to the nature of the alloy steel they specified.:bigbye:

[Mark Landskov]

Francis, the lugs on my 1877 Lifter and 1896 Syracuse Lefever are brazed in place. I do not know a lot about welding or soldering, so I cannot imagine what sort of equipment was used in 1877!

[Francis Morin]

I am really not sure when the oxy-acetylene torches came out, but that process preceeded electric arc welding with the flux coat stick electrodes (SMAW)- But acetylene and carbide with water were used for miner's head lamps before 1900 I am sure-

My guess- the lug and assembled barrels were pre-heated by forge to allow the flux to flow evenly (tinning) and then the brazing metal added, clamped into a fixture (possibly like a sand mold cope and drag, not sure) and allowed to cool to ambient temperature- but that is only speculation.

[Dean Romig]

The barrels and lug were brazed together prior to keels, barrels and top and bottom ribs being soldered up, if I am not mistaken. The reason being that the lead solder has a lower melting temp and would have been the last process requiring such heat.