Trojan info needed

[Tom Christman]

I just picked up a second Trojan. This one has everything except for the wood, the safety pin, the safety lever and jacket, the bushing for the tang screw, trigger guard and the two tang screws. So it's almost all there and if I can't find those parts I know someone that can make them based on the parts in the other Trojan I have.

The serial numbers on both indicate they were both made in 1921. However, one has the rib extension and one does not. What other differences are there that I don't see? I want to make sure that if I copy the parts from the other Trojan I have they will fit this new Trojan.

If you have some of these parts as spares and would like to sell them at a fair price, please let me know.

Also, would a research letter tell me anything about these Trojans that I don't already know by measuring them myself? How about who they were originally sold to?

Thanks.

[Bill Murphy]

Give us the serial numbers and we'll tell you whether or not you are likely to find original buyer info in your PGCA letter.

[Dean Romig]

Frame size, stock dimensions and barrel length as well as with or without the rib extension, as you suggest, are about the only differences between Trojans.

Oh, and gauge too.

[Tom Christman]

195031 has rib extension
196297 has no rib extension

[Bill Murphy]

In that serial number range, you are not likely to find any information about the original owner in a PGCA letter. Sorry.

[Francis Morin]

Tom. I am sure there are some fine gunsmiths in the Badger State. When I served in the USMC several of my buddies hailed from Rhinelander, and LaCrosse. My gunsmith, also a PGCA member and devotee of The Old Reliable, may have the parts, and has redone many Trojans, several of which I have seen and shot. He is working on an older (1903) GHE 12 for me now.

Contact Brad Bachelder- 616-459-3636, e-mail at bachelderfirearm@ aol.com. His summer hours are Tuesday-Friday 1000 hrs. to 1700 hrs. EST.

If you are observant enough to spot the rib extension difference in your Trojan Parkers, you may have also spotted the lack of the letter Sierra (s) in his e-mail. I tried to reach him at bacheldersfirearms@aol.com, which Won't Work- use the intel in the second graph and you'll be "spot on". His wife Lori, who is the Ops. Mgr. explained that to me.

By the by, I had a 12 gauge Trojan for many years as my pet pheasant gun.
28" barrels choked Mod and Full, DT, standard stock and black buttplate, made about 1926-lotsa wear and tear but what a great shooter. I bought it about 20 years ago for $375 if memory serves, low price mainly due to someone having written their full name, rank and sn on the bottom of the receiver with an electro-etching stylus. Sold it about a year ago to a hunting pal who always wanted a Parker, and the GHE 12 will be its replacement in days to come. My former Trojan had the small rib extension, not the Doll's Head shape as on my GHE-

Perhaps it was the introduction of the Model 21 in aprox. 1931, that had no rib extension at all, that prompted Parker to delete that feature, perhaps it was cost reduction as the Great Depression was afoot. I had also read somewhere that Parker designers had planned to eliminate the Doll's Head from the graded guns, but Sales and Marketing thought too many Parker owners extant relied on that design, almost a Parker Trademark, as the recessed hingepin design. Someone also once suggested that Winchester had tried to buy Parker Brothers Co. in 1926, and when their offer was graciously refused, went ahead with the design of the M21. Just rumor!!

[Dean Romig]

Parker Bros. began to discontinue the rib extension on the Trojan in the very early 1920's as another cost cutting measure.

[Tom Christman]

Both guns date to 1921 so this must have been during the transition. Are the older Trojans with the rib extension more desirable because of the rib extension? I see no other differences in these two guns.

[Dave Noreen]

The only time a Trojan with a rib extension is worth more is when a dealer has a customer who believes it is.

[Tom Christman]

I didn't mention worth. However, the rib extension is on there for a reason - to keep the barrel on face. So I would think that if I had two Trojans in identical condition, one with the rib extension and one without, I would pick the one with the extension.

[Greg Baehman]

I don't believe a Trojan's rib extension has/had any bearing whatsoever of keeping the barrels on face.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

Actually, I've heard lots of folks say, that rib extensions really don't do anything unless they have a hole in them for a crossbolt.

There are Parkers out there, pigeon guns for the most part, that were specifically ordered without them.

DLH

[Dean Romig]

I agree Greg and Destry. If the rib extension and the doll's head had been mechanically necessary Parker Bros. would never have produced any guns without them.

[Dave Suponski]

The rib extension on a Trojan really does not serve much of a purpose/ The dolls head on the other hand because of the taper on the bottom surface and the coresponding taper on the barrels serves to reduce the "springing' of the barrels away from the standing breach upon firing the gun.

[Tom Christman]

So is the rib extension purely cosmetic? Does it serve any purpose at all?

[Dave Suponski]

Tom,Other than limiting lateral movement to some degree the rib extention was purely cosmetic. So much so that Parker Brothers must have thought that cost savings out weighed function in this case.

[Dean Romig]

Other than filling that ugly slot in the frame between the breech balls, nothing really :rolleyes:

[Bill Murphy]

If the doll's head did anything at all to keep the barrels on face, Parker Brothers wouldn't have built pigeon guns and single trap guns without extensions or doll's heads. All Parker extensions and doll's heads are for looks only. 99.9% of Parkers that are loose on the face have doll's heads.

[Dave Suponski]

Bill,Thank You for your input here but I just don,t understand why Parker would use such a complex system as a dolls head if it served no purpose other than asthetics. From a machining stand point the dolls head would be a real pain to produce.

[Bill Murphy]

In the early sporting press, rib extensions used up thousands of lines of print in discussions pro and con. The Westley Richards doll's head was imitated by Lefever, Parker, and probably others. However, the Westley Richards DH was absolutely functional, having a locking slot at its rear. Other types of extensions, both locking and not, were considered neccesary for a gun to be considered a quality gun. However, the debate continued in the sporting press. Parker continued the doll's head because it was a prestige item and considered functional by many shooters, but probably not by Parker Brothers designers. Problems with bar distortion are not solved by the use of a doll's head. In Parker's case, bar distortion and breakage (if there ever was such a problem), was solved by the use of the radiused junction, not the doll's head.

[Dave Suponski]

Bill,Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated. :bowdown:

[Christopher Lien]

Personally, I kinda like the look of early graded Parker's ordered Sans dolls head & safety.
As did early professional Parker shooter Frank Parmalee, that's the way he ordered his.

Best, CSL

http://www.webpak.net/~dslcslien/1DHnoDollsA.jpg ____________________________________________
http://www.webpak.net/~dslcslien/1DHnoDollsB.jpg .

[Dean Romig]

Nice one Chris. It looks like a DH, is it?

Did Parker ever attempt to produce an ejector gun without a doll's head. It seems to me it would be impossible . . . or would it? Something has to act as a detent for the ejectors but I would think that could be done in the same manner that the detent screw was done on an extractor gun. Anyone know?

[Christopher Lien]

Dean, Yes, that one is a DH...

Murphy referred to the dolls head as a bit of period cosmetic hype, and I tend to agree... You also raise a good question concerning alternative ejector designs, but I don't recall Parker Bros ever coming up with another plan for their ejector system... In the past KBM has discussed in great detail his experiences with the fragile tracks/guides under the dolls head, and how the slightest offset or damage could seriously and sometimes permanently disable proper ejector function... Given the delicate nature of the dolls head ejector design, one can't help but wonder if perhaps there might have been a better way to build that mouse trap?...

Best, CSL
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[Francis Morin]

All very informative replies indeed. Without getting into the Fox gun arena here, perhaps the Trojan with the small rib extension, no matter what name properly describes it, as Parker's economy gun, competed for market share with the Sterlingworth, the LC Smith-Hunter Fulton, and later the Ithaca/LeFever Nitro Special.

Of all these "economy" based doubles produced by major double gun makers, it is my understanding that only the Fox Sterlingworth had the option of selective ejectors. I can now see why Parker didn't offer that on the Trojan model- A grouse hunting pal has a later Ilion mfg. Trojan 20 bore, plain breech face as on the M21, and a Miller single trigger. Nice bird gun indeed.

In Paul Curtis' 1934 book "Guns and Gunning" he discusses the doll's head in his chapter on double gun types, but if he mentioned the Model 21 therein, I missed it. By increasing the length from the standing face to the knuckle-or hinge pin, the Winchester design team added strength, but also extra metal, hence a heavier gun. Fine for the duck blind or goose pit or pigeon ring, but perhaps a tad heavy for an all-day hike after wild flushing Roosters in SD.

[Bill Murphy]

I see no reason why a screw in the same or similar location as the extractor limiting screw couldn't perform the same function in an ejector gun. As a matter of fact, a gun with a broken limiter plate couldn't be put back into action by the installation of a limiting screw. In fact, I remember a poster on this or another gun site posting a photo of a Parker with a broken limiting plate asking about the suitability of his gun for shooting. He was referred to Larry Del Grego for repair of his limiting plate.