Carding, and boiling at the end

[Bill Graham]

Deep into the reading material on refinishing damascus, and wanted to ask what folks use to card and why they use it. I've heard about the use of heavier steel wool, Scotchbrite pads, baking soda and finger tips, etc.

I'm also trying to sort out the iterations of rusting, carding, boiling, etching:

Seems that some blue the barrels to the desired color, boiling each cycle, and only then do they start to etch. Others seem to brown, then etch, and save the boil until the end to get their contrast.

Simply trying to learn and would appreciate insight into this. Is this a "to each his own" stylistic process?

[Dean Romig]

For the most consistent results you should get Dr. Oscar Gaddy's method of restoring Damascus barrels to original appearance.





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[Bill Graham]

I've been looking at "Tom Flanigan's Damascus Restoration Tutorial" which I understand to be an adaptation of Dr. Gaddy's method, and it mentions carding with wet baking soda.

Also, the document directs the audience to drill a second weep hole in the rib. Do you folks do this, and how far from the muzzle is recommended?

[Jerry Harlow]

Bill,

I spoke with Mr. Dale Edmonds at length about the process he uses. He told me that Dr. Gaddy's instructions left a lot of unanswered questions, and he learned it by trial and error, and even today he has different results depending upon the metal in the barrels. Of course he is finishing up his work and is retiring, and he found no one to apprentice under him.

I tried it and gave up. I can do rust bluing with no problem but Damascus was too much of a match for me. I can tell you that Mr. Edmonds does not drill a hole or additional hole in the under rib behind the forearm on the barrels he has done for me. I anxiously await my last set for a DH that he is doing.

Early Parkers don't have a weep hole to start with. But if when the barrels go in the boiling tank and you see bubbles coming from the ribs, then water is going to get in there. Thus I am sure the recommendation for the weep hole(s).

[Bill Graham]

Thank you.

I'm giving it a try with a Grade 1 Smith, that does have an existing weep hole right next to the forend hook, muzzle side. Getting etching solution in there seems a bad idea, so I plugged it, but I imagine that there are still voids along the ribs that fluid could penetrate.

I'm using steam to convert rust instead of boiling, so there's no submersion there, but there is with the etchant dip. Maybe that's why some brush on the etchant; to keep that stuff out of the weep hole.

[Jerry Harlow]

If it has one, a second one makes it easier to remove all moisture, drilled back towards the breech. But don't dill into the barrels. When it is put in water displacing oil and you use air, it gets most everything out after several times. Mr. Edmonds heated the barrels with a heat gun to get rid of anything between the ribs from what I remember he told me.

[Bill Murphy]

Bill Graham, Tom Flanigan did not perfect his Damascus refinishing methods. He apparently is retired from his attempts. Too bad, because he is a wonderful person and loves setters. Personal tragedies apparently ended his efforts.

[Brian Dudley]

I've been looking at "Tom Flanigan's Damascus Restoration Tutorial" which I understand to be an adaptation of Dr. Gaddy's method, and it mentions carding with wet baking soda.

Also, Dr. Gaddy's document directs the audience to drill a second weep hole in the rib. Do you folks do this, and how far from the muzzle is recommended?



Baking soda would be a neutralizer. Not for carding.

Do NOT drill weep holes. You are altering the barrels from their original state and they cause more problems than they prevent.



Have you actually used steam in regular rust bluing with good results? I tried it and found it very difficult to avoid spotting and getting a good outcome. If you have not used it before, i recommend a trial run to see if you can make it work for you.

[Dean Romig]

Do NOT drill weep holes. You are altering the barrels from their original state and they cause more problems than they prevent.


I couldn't agree more with this statement.





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[Bill Graham]

Baking soda would be a neutralizer. Not for carding.
Flanigan cites using it to neutralize, and to use as a slurry for light fingertip carding.

Do NOT drill weep holes. You are altering the barrels from their original state and they cause more problems than they prevent.

Understood. I ask here to validate what is said elsewhere.

Have you actually used steam in regular rust bluing with good results? I tried it and found it very difficult to avoid spotting and getting a good outcome. If you have not used it before, i recommend a trial run to see if you can make it work for you.

Yes, repeatedly. You were kind enough to give one a thumbs-up comment on one I did last year. It's gone very well thus far. A couple of keys is to hang the barrels muzzle up, and for the boil to be intense. I'm sure I'd be happy with boiling as well; I simply don't have the equipment or space. I had the PVC components, canning pot, and camp stove on hand.

[wayne goerres]

The baking soda is used after submersing in the acid bath. Carding is done after boiling and before the acid bath.

[Bill Graham]

The baking soda is used after submersing in the acid bath. Carding is done after boiling and before the acid bath.
I believe it is both. In Flanigan's tutorial, the converted black oxide soot is carded dry, and then there is wet and gentle carding with the baking soda slurry to help remove what the etchant attacks. Regardless of the tutorial, I'm going with the consensus of using steel wool for any stage of carding.

[Bill Graham]

All done with my first set. Dale Edmonds was kind enough to discuss the finer points with me, which was very generous of him.

[Brian Dudley]

Looks good. Hard to tell from the photos, but watch your carding in the hard to reach places. The cracks of the ribs look awfully dark. Could just be the photo.

[Bill Graham]

Looks good. Hard to tell from the photos, but watch your carding in the hard to reach places. The cracks of the ribs look awfully dark. Could just be the photo.
Thank you. Yes, hard to get to, and I'm not set up well for taking photographs, so it's likely both. I could have etched another time or two for more contrast, but I decided to let it be. When I find some more material, I'll test out some more techniques and focus on those trouble areas.

[Brian Hornacek]

Great work!!

[charlie cleveland]

looks really good to me...charlie

[Bill Graham]

These are from a Smith hammer gun I finished this week. Still without a logwood tank, but hope to have one sorted out soon.

These photos are mid-day, overcast. They'd look brighter overall in direct sun perhaps, and then possibly over-dark inside a room. The hue is the same in person, even though the underside looks lighter, it isn't really. Four coats of wax.

I still find myself using baking soda as a soft slurry for carding after etching. I like it. In a way it's flexible, in that you can use less or more, impregnating some steel wool or just fingertips, depending on how you need to deal with irregularities in the effectiveness of the etching. Calcium cabonate (whiting) is what Dr. Gaddy wrote about, and will try that also, but the soda accomplishes the same purpose and neutralizes the acid. Still working on it.

On the list to sort out is the coating of the bores with urethane or shellac without making a big mess.

[Ed Blake]

Do not use scotchbright pads to card; they will scratch the barrel surface because they are too rough. Stick to 0000 steel wool. Also carding with baking soda slurry makes for uneven results.

[Bill Graham]

I don't use Scotch Brite pads. The slurry I make is very wet, about the consistency of cream and works well.

[charlie cleveland]

those barrels looked very good to me..charlie

[Ed Blake]

Those barrels are among the best I have ever seen.

[Harry Collins]

Bill,

I've had to change horses in midstream. Abbey's logwood at $2,730 for 10 pounds has pushed me out of the Oscar Gaddy and Dale Edmonds method of doing barrels. I too am rusting, boiling, etc. In the last four months I have discovered so many ways NOT to color barrels. I'm trying to discover what works best for carding after the Ferric Chloride etching. For the moment I'm sticking Carding with steel wool and dawn followed by bon-aim and sponge. Dale carded like this after the ferric chloride dip followed by a dip in Potassium Hydroxide to neutralize and to help remove the logwood from the lugs, etc.

Harry

[Dean Romig]

Not a criticism of Dales work because he did a wonderful job for me on the sets of barrels I sent to him - one being a set of Bernard barrels that he refinished in pure black and white, but it took him years to finally perfect his method to a level of consistency. There was a very long learning period where he only was able to get them to come out light gray and dark gray. The learning curve is long and slow.






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[Bill Graham]

I've had to change horses in midstream. Abbey's logwood at $2,730 for 10 pounds has pushed me out of the Oscar Gaddy and Dale Edmonds method of doing barrels. I too am rusting, boiling, etc. In the last four months I have discovered so many ways NOT to color barrels.
I'm not convinced that what's on Amazon isn't just as good: powder, chips, extract. It certainly isn't that expensive. Same stuff as what's used to boil traps, so why not barrels?

The English was black enough without using it, but it was more labor intensive. My tank set-up is nearly operational, so I'm still going to try it, and give the Amazon stuff a try.

[Harry Collins]

I have tried the Amazon logwood and the barrels turned black as my heart. With ferrous sulfate added they did not turn black. With ferrous sulfate after barrels were black the results were if I had carded after the first rusting. Carding the black barrels without the
Ferrous sulfate was just as fruitless.

[Bill Graham]

Hey Harry. I'm a bit confused. Logwood for traps did, or did not, blacken? The ferrous sulfate did not help the oxide to release from the steel? I've got a barrel of my own to try soon, so I'll do some testing.

[Harry Collins]

Bill,

I'm confused as well! I have five sets of barrels going and will try the amazon logwood in different form today on two of them. All I know about the ferrous sulfate and potassium hydroxide is what I've read in Oscar's articles. I have been reluctant to post about this until i was successful. I'll let you know what today brings.

Harry

[Bill Graham]

How goes it, Harry? I'm still plugging away with the practice. Messing with a Lefever barrel now. I don't have an issue with the depth of black oxide in the crolle, it's get the steel white enough and regulating what how much is etched off that are my struggles.

I know how other fellows do it, and have followed suit in a very disciplined manner, but the steel continues to darken more than expected and confuses the etching times.

[Bill Graham]

Finally had some good success. Still no logwood, and there were more iterations than I ultimately would like, but it feels good for it to be going better. This set was finished last week, and is from a Lefever G grade from 1894.

[Dean Romig]

A very nice job! Congratulations.






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[Rick Losey]

Agreed

Excellent work

[Jim DiSpagno]

Great job.

[Tom Flanigan]

I've been looking at "Tom Flanigan's Damascus Restoration Tutorial" which I understand to be an adaptation of Dr. Gaddy's method, and it mentions carding with wet baking soda.

Also, the document directs the audience to drill a second weep hole in the rib. Do you folks do this, and how far from the muzzle is recommended?

Just saw this Bill. You are mistaken. I have never drilled a weep hole or recommended it. I should never be done, ever, when using the rust blue methods for fluid or damascus finishing.

It may be necessary for some types of hot bluing but I am totally unfamiliar with those methods and have never used them.

To clarify, I card with wet baking soda to lightly card after the etchant dip. The baking soda stops further action of the etchant and removes the color loosened by the etchant. It is not used for carding the barrels after rusting.

I am back restoring my own damascus barrels. I have modified my former approach to get more consistency. Getting consistent results takes a lot of trial and error. Most develop their own tweaks on the overall process. The results of my new tweaks is very encouraging.

[Bill Graham]

Hi Tom. I was referring to both documents; yours and Dr. Gaddy’s. In one of Gaddy’s was mentioned a second weep hole.

I’m sure all of us interested in the process the process would value hearing whatever tweaks you’re willing to share.

This is my last set. No logwood involved.

[Tom Flanigan]

Absolutely beautiful Bill. You have obviously developed your own tweaks. I have more experimenting to do before I publish my new twists and turns. When I get consistent results on all barrels, I'll share my thoughts.

Some barrels are harder than others. When I can do any barrel the same way and get good consistent results, I'll post my tweaks.

[Bill Graham]

Some barrels are harder than others. When I can do any barrel the same way and get good consistent results, I'll post my tweaks.
Thanks Tom. No kidding. The 4-iron was misery. The layers are so thin. This Washington was one of the easier ones thus far because the pattern edges are more distinct.

I like your wisdom around success with any barrel. I still consider my successes to have been educational accidents. Either way, it’s interesting, fulfilling, and frustrating.

[William Wood]

These are from a Smith hammer gun I finished this week. Still without a logwood tank, but hope to have one sorted out soon.

These photos are mid-day, overcast. They'd look brighter overall in direct sun perhaps, and then possibly over-dark inside a room. The hue is the same in person, even though the underside looks lighter, it isn't really. Four coats of wax.

I still find myself using baking soda as a soft slurry for carding after etching. I like it. In a way it's flexible, in that you can use less or more, impregnating some steel wool or just fingertips, depending on how you need to deal with irregularities in the effectiveness of the etching. Calcium cabonate (whiting) is what Dr. Gaddy wrote about, and will try that also, but the soda accomplishes the same purpose and neutralizes the acid. Still working on it.

On the list to sort out is the coating of the bores with urethane or shellac without making a big mess.

I was wondering about the urethane coat. I rust blue pretty regularly, in fact, it’s my regular bluing method. I work primarily on doubles and other higher end guns, so it didn’t make sense to maintain a set of tanks that would sit idle most of the time. I’m about to do my first Damascus barrel for a customer. It’s a Parker with Stubbs Twist barrels. I’ll probably be posting a lot of questions during the course of this new endeavor. Any help would be very welcome. I have Tom Flanagan’s article as a starting point. Where can Dr. Gaddy’s instructions be found?

I use shellac to mask bores and other areas in my rust blue jobs. It’s easy to apply, seems to stay intact very well even through repeated boiling cycles, and is really easy to remove at the end. Would it do well on Damascus finishing? I tried urethane early on my rust bluing. It is very hard to remove, especially from interiors of receivers and other tight spots, and sometimes, some of the stripping compounds recommended for urethane removal are very bad on the new finish. Can shellac be used with the etching steps? Your advice would be appreciated.

[Tom Flanigan]

I have never used shellac but I imagine it would work. I use urethane for damascus because you typically have to do many more iterations of rust, card, etch and boil. But you might be onto something with shellac. I'll try it and If it stays intact, I'll switch. It certainly would be a lot easier to remove from the bores.

[Dean Romig]

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?





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[Tom Flanigan]

I do use rubber stoppers but moisture can still get in around the rubber so the barrels need to be protected. Rubber stoppers can come out from the pressure that builds up in the barrels. I put a small pipe through the center of them and bend it upward to keep water from coming in. This works great.

Rubber stoppers are mandatory, but I believe coating the bores is also to be safe.

[Bill Graham]

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?
Some advise using both. Personally, I've not used a bore coating as of yet, and stoppers seem fine, although when I'm carding under water after etching, they've been known to be knocked out. Since it's just water, not so much of a big deal.

One fellow I talked about this along the way, doesn't use anything for the bores. His etches sounded brief, and he said it cleans out the bores. In his process he scrubs the bores during each cycle, so I suppose nothing potentially harmful is allowed access to the metal for long enough to be an issue.

I appreciate when we work together sorting this out. There's more than enough work to go around, and we're all the better for it when we collaborate. This process has such a high degree of variability due to materials and environment, all of those doing it have their own tweaks, and some are competitive about their secrets. Sharing is better. Thanks to all for contributing to the discussion.

[Tom Flanigan]

I really enjoy these “conversations” Bill. Collaboration is great and will help us to get to the point where we can do any barrel with the same method and get consistent results. That’s the goal. Dale obviously got there and I know we can too.

The higher grade Damascus is the most difficult to do consistently, in my experience, with the exception of Bernard. I have a 20 bore set that I have tried to do three times an never got what I was looking for. I put the barrels away for years. But when I feel that I am where I need to be, I’ll try those barrels again. That will be my test.

I don’t have a lot of time to experiment with the process now since I am still working. But I am planning to retire in June and then I am going to devote a lot of my time to Damascus. I’m moving back to the family home in Pawling, NY and will have my grouse and woodduck hunting minutes away. I am so looking forward to that.

The first gun I am going to work on when I retire is a hammer Parker that was given to me by Austin Hogan. He was a friend and a great man with incredible knowledge. I am going to recut the checkering with mullered borders (I have been checkering since I was fourteen years old) and then refinish the stock and do the twist barrels. I call the gun my Austin gun. I’ll hunt ducks with that gun and think of Austin.

[Tom Flanigan]

I use Laurel Mountain Forge degreaser and browner. I bought a pint of it years ago. I have used Pilkington also, but I don't believe the rusting agent used has much if any effect on the final results. They all work well.

I went to Laurel Mountain Forge because it is more forgiving if you manage to touch the barrels with a bare hand by mistake. They call it a degreaser but I wouldn't depend on that. All barrels need to be carefully degreased regardless of what rusting agent you are using. But Laurel Mountain is a bit more forgiving than the other rusting agents.

[Bill Graham]

Likewise, Laurel Mtn. Forge in use here as well. I've also tried a number of solutions from Rustblue.com They work well, but the price is more of a premium.

Like you, I have a day job as well, so my time to experiment is limited. I do barrels for myself, and for friends, as barter or as favor. My workspace is not very suitable for any of it, which is why I steam vertically for the bluing process, and etch vertically. I have to etch and rinse outside, so that work is limited to daylight hours.

Keep at your tweaks, Sir. I wish you great success.

[Tom Flanigan]

I have a restoration room with sink in my basement in Mt. Airy so things are a bit easier for me. When I move to Pawling I will convert the canning room in the basement to a restoration room and have a sink installed. Having a sink available is a great time saver.

[William Wood]

Why not just use rubber stoppers like so many others do?





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I tried them at first, but I do all types of arms in my rust bluing. 90% of my work is on bolt actions. Hard to get rubber stoppers to stay in in the small bore sizes. Plus, I use iron wire to suspend the workpieces in my boil tank. The iron wire is much easier to manipulate during the carding.

On another tack, I built a rust cabinet early on, but I found it unnecessary as humidity averages 80-90% (measured with a sling psychrometer). (BTW, I am in the deep South. Humidity is all the time.) I usually start bluing in the early morning and stay with it continuously till early the next morning with about 4-5 passes. (card-swab-rust 3 hours-boil-repeat) I just found a source for rubber stoppers on line and have ordered a dozen of each, 1 hole and no hole, so I guess that is what I will be using on the Parker barrels. Anyone know of a good online source for glass tubing? Thought that would be best for the vent tube. I've bent a lot of it in chem lab, no problem. EVERYTHING has to be ordered here.
I found that the water is a major factor. I tried tap, rain, distilled, and finally water purified by the reverse osmosis process. The reverse osmosis water guarantees nearly prefect results every time. Pilkington's is my rusting agent.

Also, I use a lot of acetone as a degreaser in my bluing. I also use butyl rubber gloves to do all handling after the process starts.(only gloves the acetone doesn't dissolve!) I "rinse" them off each time I touch anything in process, and try to touch any workpiece as little as possible. My carding is by hand with 0000steel wool, degreased in acetone. The pad is changed every cycle. Many times, I dip it during the carding as well. I DO waer a rubber mask with proper filters. I have a very high success rate, maybe 1 in 50 jobs has to be re-polished for an error. ALL my polishing is by hand. Only thing I use a buffer in my shop for is sharpening my carving chisels. I have a supply of logwood, Ferric Chloride, etc. and Mr. Flanigan's instructions. I have 4 tanks, 2 fiberglass, 1 stainless steel, and 1 black iron.

Guess what I'm asking, am I on the right track for Damascus finishing?

[Tom Flanigan]

You are definitely on the right track for Damascus finishing. I bend small hollow copper tubing for venting but I imagine glass would work as well. I don’t know where you can get bent glass however.

With the exception of etching, the process is basically the same as for rust bluing. However, you will have to do many more iterations to get the proper contrast since the Ferric chloride removes the color from both the steel and iron portions of Damascus, abeit at a slower rate for the iron portions. You have to do many iterations to get high contrast.

I can generally do the rusting in the summer without my damp cabinet. Not so in the winter up north. But I use the damp cabinet in both summer and winter to get more consistent rusting times.

I stopped using rubber gloves to handle the barrels since some can melt a bit on the hot barrels which ruins the finish. I use heavy duty leather gloves but I imagine there are some rubber gloves that won’t cause problems.

Ferric chloride is nasty stuff. When I retire in June, I plan to experiment with a mix that will etch the barrels without the danger or problems of ferric chloride. I don’t know if it will work properly but I have high hopes. I plan to devote a lot of time to trying to improve my process of Damascus finishing.

[Harry Sanders]

Bought my logwood from a trappers supply house. Lifetime supply for 20$. Whiting from brownells. they promite it for de-oiling stocks. Back in the day mixed with Trichlor now I guess it's Isopropyl or Acetone. Whiting and Ferrous Sulfate (copperas I believe is it's Apothecary name) makes final carding much easier

[Tom Flanigan]

This might sound like heresy, but I don’t think the logwood bath at the end has that much of an effect. At least it hasn’t for me. My goal is to get true black on the iron portions without the use of logwood. I imagine any logwood clinging to the iron would wear off quickly anyway. My new method of finishing is encouraging so far. I’m getting closer to using the same method for all barrels without tweaks for harder to do finer Damascus or other barrels that don’t color well.

I’ve used whiting but stopped. Its messy and my thoughts are that acetone baths do a better job. Also, I oil the barrels when finished as opposed to lacquering them. I don’t believe lacquer belongs on barrels. It does make the pattern more vivid at first, but it wears off and has to be re-applied. The only time I would apply lacquer to a gun is if there is a lot of original color and I wanted to hunt with the gun without wearing any more off. I would put it on before the season and take it off afterwards.

[Harry Sanders]

Logwood as I recall is from the Campeche tree. It contains Haemotoxilin a strong black organic dye that attaches naturally to iron. Thus it's use in microbiology. So yes if it's oxidized off then it leaves little black behind. I agree that the photos show great contrast. But the black oxide you have created is very unstable and will decay quickly (relative term) from the ferro ferric oxide to ferric oxide or rust. This does not happen from an appearance perspective with Haemotoxilin present because it remains carbon black in color regardless of the conversion of the oxide. I wrote this from memory so forgive me if I've mis-spoken.

[Tom Flanigan]

Very interesting Harry. Thank you. That is good to know. I'm going back to using logwood. My eye couldn't see much difference, but I guess there is after all. I appreciate you explaining this to me. Now if you can just find an etching agent that only works on the steel and not on the iron. I guess it doesn't exist or someone would be using it by now.
But that would be the holy grail.

[Mills Morrison]

This is a great thread and good to see some folks picking up where Dale left off

[Rick Riddell]

If anyone needs a set of barrels to work, drop me a PM, I have a set in desperate need of a refinish!

[Harry Collins]

Most of what follows is direct from Dale Edmons:

[Harry Collins]

This is where I am stuck.

[Mills Morrison]

It is not Dale's, obviously, but looks pretty good from where I stand

[Tom Flanigan]

Almost there Harry. Getting them beyond this point to a true black is what we all look to accomplish. Good luck with them. It is often hard to get them beyond this point. Dale got there and we will too.

[Harry Collins]

This is Dale's work on the 10 gauge I won the Southern with in 2005. I love the way Dale's barrels came out. That said I have some Parker examples that are almost black and I want to get closer to what I can compare. I have a short list of what to try next. Do me a favor Tom and look at the outline I use in the post above the pictures. I am open to any suggestions.

Harry

[Tom Flanigan]

Dales barrels in the picture you posted are beautiful, as are yours. I could be wrong, but I believe that the barrels when they left Parker were true black and not a dark gray. I have gotten there with a couple of barrels but I can't do it consistently and that's my problem. I can't seem to get over the hump with most barrels.

Take a look at my tutorial and see the set of Bernard that I did. I think this is what they looked like when the left the factory. I wish they all came out this way.

I don't see the outline you mentioned. Please clarify.

[Harry Collins]

Tom, it's an attached file in the post above my barrels picture. I'll look at your tutorial again. Thanks.
Harry

[Tom Flanigan]

Thanks. Read it. I am going to try not etching until the end and use a stronger, less diluted Ferric Chloride. I will watch the barrels, doing them in a tank, rubbing the barrels with protected hands, and then remove them at just the right moment. Then I'll quickly wash them down with baking soda. That's the plan. But I have to be careful. Etching will remove metal if the barrels are in the solution too long. That's why I am going to do the etching in an open tank so that I can watch and remove at just the right moment. That's the plan. We'll see how it works out.

[Rick Riddell]

Hey guys what a great thread! So I have a quick question I have a set of Damascus barrels, there is some color to them, but I would like to get it darker, but dont have the set up for a full refinish. Is there any quick and easy way to get some color back to the barrels without having to go through the refinishing process?
Thanks
Rick

[Harry Collins]

Rick, I watched gunsmith restoring an English shotgun with Damascus barrels. The barrels weren't that bad so he placed them in a tank. I tried to understand what the fluid was, but couldn't understand him. I'll try to find it and watch again. I was fascinated, but for the life of me I couldn't quite catch it.

Harry

[Harry Collins]

I found it! The video is about the restoration of a W.W. Greener. This is part 4. The talk fo the fluid he uses starts at the 12 minute mark. Please help me understand what he is saying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6pAYitBgMg

[Harry Collins]

I think he said, sulfuric acid then iron sulphate in water.

[Bill Graham]

barrels when they left Parker were true black and not a dark gray. I have gotten there with a couple of barrels but I can't do it consistently and that's my problem. I can't seem to get over the hump with most barrels.
Same problem, Tom. On this Lefever set, I didn't use logwood. I don't really want to use logwood. The problem is, I don't know precisely how this success was achieved. What made the difference? Don't know, and haven't had the same result quality since. That said, the process on this set was loosely as follows: rusting to the point of zero visible pattern, a lengthy dunk in the etchant, back to rusting until the pattern is gone again, and another dunk. I believe it was a total of three iterations of those two steps. Some of crolle' was filled quite well, which helps it look more black, and some was still thin. I had to stop at this for fear of wrecking the whole thing and having to start over.

That said, the bigger problem I am having is with the application of the rusting solution, and it building up too thickly on the barrels alongside the top rib. I am carding that area just as aggressively as the rest, but the oxide it too thick, even though I strive to be careful not to over-apply. I suspect that in my efforts to coat the barrel, and the rib sides completely, the problem is created regardless. If it weren't for that, my results would be much more consistent.

Lastly, I like carding with a very thin baking soda slurry, but have been trying a similar slurry of Bon-ami, which seems less abrasive.

[Bill Graham]

I will add: I've tried Dale's repeated brownings until a strong contrast develops technique. I have never had a strong contrast develop. As stated earlier, I don't have logwood in the process. When I decide to boil (I use a steam system), the barrels are completely black; no pattern developed during browning, so no pattern was present after converting the rust.

I don't see how the carding between brownings takes off the rust on the steel but leaves it on the iron, unless the pre-etch makes that possible. There is a good bit of debate about pre-etching being worth it or not. I could be wrong, but I thought that Dr. Gaddy abandoned pre-etching.

[Tom Flanigan]

Bill....I just formally retired today and so I plan to spend a lot of time refining my technique. I can pretty much dedicate myself to it till I get some answers. I am seeking a consistent, repeatable process that can be used for all barrels and that will provide consistent true black and white. I'm sure Parker didn't play with different methods for different barrels. I believe they used one process to get consistent results. They couldn't afford to do otherwise. Investigation continues......

[Bill Graham]

Congratulations Tom!

I am stuck with my investigations being late at night. IBM gets the days, family on the weekends, church on Sunday. I'll keep at it, take better notes, and pass on to the group here anything to seems to be worth considering.

Hey, when are we going to start talking about those unfortunate barrels that have voids in the solder? I understand that some turn those barrels away until they are fixed properly. I don't think that's always reasonable for some, but protecting ones self from trapped fluids (including etchant) weeping on otherwise good work is certainly a challenge.

Maybe this kind of device would help?

[Harry Collins]

Dale told me the way he prevented weeping and ruining the work completed was to wax the barrels twice, blow compressed air into the sight and vent holes if they are present. He spent about 20 minutes with a heat gun muzzle to breach, 20 seconds every two inches, both sides to remove any moisture under the ribs.

[Bill Graham]

Dale told me the way he prevented weeping and ruining the work completed was to wax the barrels twice, blow compressed air into the sight and vent holes if they are present. He spent about 20 minutes with a heat gun muzzle to breach, 20 seconds every two inches, both sides to remove any moisture under the ribs.
I use compressed air and heat gun methods, which he told me about as well. I still find that some barrels trap moisture between the braces, and even after blowing them out, the fluid boils out whatever the nearest void is. I'll try the wax angle, but the barrels would need to be quite dry for the wax to adhere well enough to stop what boils out.

[Harry Collins]

Bill, your Lefever barrels are beautiful. When you say you rust until no pattern is visible do you not card between rusting? You steam rather than boil. Do you place the barrels in a box with a humidifier? Do you etch with ferric chloride or sulfuric acid?
Thanks,
Harry

[Bill Graham]

Bill, your Lefever barrels are beautiful. When you say you rust until no pattern is visible do you not card between rusting? You steam rather than boil. Do you place the barrels in a box with a humidifier? Do you etch with ferric chloride or sulfuric acid?
Hi Harry. Thank you for your comments.

I converted the rust and carded just like I would a fluid steel set. The rusting solution (Laurel Mtn Forge) is diluted to 1 part solution to 5 parts distilled water.

I do not have space for tanks, so I used a schedule 40 4" PVC pipe over a perforated stock pot lid, with a stock pot on a propane burner. The barrels are suspended by wire and a chromed automotive breaker bar.

I have an old 6' school locker that has been sealed inside. A compact crock pot rests at the bottom.

I used ferric chloride, I think somewhere around 15%, in the same PVC set-up. I have not had an issue with the vertical approach, except that I cannot see the activity. I submerge and remove and rinse quickly enough to not experience significantly uneven etchings. That said, if I had the space available, I would at least etch in tanks so I could see and test the etching while it is underway. As it is now, I have to etch and rinse outside with a garden hose.

[Harry Collins]

Great information! Thanks. When I apply the rusting solution (C-26 (X-8)) with a 1" foam brush that I saturate, squeeze dry, and blot on a paper towel. I apply in 1/4 turns going around the barrels three times. Sometimes it looks as if I hadn't done a thing, but sure enough I get a good rusting. I hope this might help with the build up of solution at the ribs.

[Bill Graham]

Great information! Thanks. When I apply the rusting solution (C-26 (X-8)) with a 1" foam brush that I saturate, squeeze dry, and blot on a paper towel. I apply in 1/4 turns going around the barrels three times. Sometimes it looks as if I hadn't done a thing, but sure enough I get a good rusting. I hope this might help with the build up of solution at the ribs.
Thanks Larry. I'll try that. Dale recommended that to me as well. After trying it once, I wasn't confident in the coverage due to the brush being so dry. Do you ever re-wet the brush midstream?

Also, I'm not following you in the instructions you've assembled about the quartering of the barrels in to top/bottom, left/right, etc. sections. What does that accomplish? I understand alternating muzzles up and down.

[Harry Collins]

No, once I start I keep going and do not re-wet in mid stream. Dale told me to prevent having to much rust at either end of the barrels to alternate everything. One rusting start at the top rib side and from the breach, next rusting start on the opposite side at the muzzle, next rusting the top rib side from the muzzle, next the opposite side at the breach. I alternate how the rest in the rusting cabinet. Muzzle up, breach up, plus change the direction the top rib faces. I could be wasting time keeping track, but apparently Dale had a problem somewhere along the line. Each new set of barrels I start fall in synch with the others I have going. That way I am only doing things one way on a any given day.

[Harry Collins]

Oh, as I 1/4 around the barrel if I have started at the breach I keep applying at the breach all the way around. I do not apply going up then back down.

[Bill Graham]

Oh, as I 1/4 around the barrel if I have started at the breach I keep applying at the breach all the way around. I do not apply going up then back down.
So you apply around the circumference in sections rather than along the length with strokes from breach to muzzle?

[Harry Collins]

I'm sorry Bill. I'm even confusing myself. If I start at the breach I do an even stroke all the way to the muzzle. Then another stroke from breach to muzzle a 1/4 turn around the barrel. Two more strokes from breach to muzzle completes that barrel. I wait about 15 minutes then do the other barrel from breach to muzzle with a foam brush freshly saturated, squeezed, and blotted. I rinse my brushes in deionized water to use again.

[Mike Franzen]

I’m glad to see you all are making progress on the damascus coloring process. It was too much for me. The collaboration is a great idea ... unless Russians are involved. :rotf: :shock::bigbye:

[Bill Graham]

Do you etch with ferric chloride or sulfuric acid?
Hey Harry. I just got an old PH today that is entirely brown. Since it couldn't make matters worse, I'm going to degrease it, plug the bores, and then submerge it in a very weak muriatic acid solution to see what it does with the twist pattern underneath the crud. I've used that solution on barrel flats with a q-tip to see what it would bring out, and it could be an interesting experiment. I will post before and after shots here when I try it.

This one is a tight 1892, uncut at either end, and with a fishtail top lever. The safety hardly moves it's so gunked up.

[Tom Flanigan]

That's a good experiment Bill. I'll be interested in the results. You will probably have to use a much less diluted solution of Muriatic acid. I tried muriatic acid years ago but I wasn't pleased with the results since it might be a bit too weak an acid to work consistently on barrels.

One thing that I always wanted to try was to boil Damascus barrels with a lot of original finish remaining but that has turned brown over time. I'd like to see if boiling them will convert the brown back to black. I believe that it should but I would like to know for sure.

I sure am interested in your experiment with muriatic acid and those brown barrels.

[Bill Graham]

One thing that I always wanted to try was to boil Damascus barrels with a lot of original finish remaining but that has turned brown over time. I'd like to see if boiling them will convert the brown back to black. I believe that it should but I would like to know for sure.
I think I'll try that first, but use my steam method. The exterior of the barrels are not all pitted up, but for a shooter maybe there's no need to polish them. Of course the bores are pitted, but that's a different issue.

[Tom Flanigan]

Bill....I never polish barrels with appreciable remaining original finish, Damascus or fluid steel, unless there are large dings or rust that must be removed. I don't like removing original finish or taking out the striking marks that are on most barrels DHE and below, especially the Trojan. I just take what is there and build on it. The added finish blends perfectly and enhances the old since weak areas of finish rust more than the stronger finish portions of the barrels. The finish all comes out even in the end and the barrels look like they did when they left the factory. The old cliché "less is more" is certainly true with Parkers.

[Bill Graham]

Bill....I never polish barrels with appreciable remaining original finish, Damascus or fluid steel, unless there are large dings or rust that must be removed. I don't like removing original finish or taking out the striking marks that are on most barrels DHE and below, especially the Trojan. I just take what is there and build on it.
Given then opportunity I do the same, however, the Parker's I can afford are typically dented, rusted, gouged, and in need of striking and polishing. I continue to get ribbed about my "project guns", and I will someday enjoy buying one in beautiful condition. In the meantime ......

[Mills Morrison]

Given then opportunity I do the same, however, the Parker's I can afford are typically dented, rusted, gouged, and in need of striking and polishing. I continue to get ribbed about my "project guns", and I will someday enjoy buying one in beautiful condition. In the meantime ......

That is about how I am. I kind of enjoy bringing them back though

[charlie cleveland]

i would like to see the 8 ga mills gun barrels brought back to new i think it would truly take a miricle...post us some pictures of your barrels as work proceeds on them....charlie

[Harry Collins]

Bill, on page 7 of this thread I posted a video link that spoke of what to dip Damascus barrels in that still have pattern. The conversation regarding the dip starts about the 12 minute mark. I can not make out what he said. If you and Tom or anyone for that matter with younger better ears could try to decipher what is said and share it we might have a short cut.
Thanks,
Harry

[Dean Romig]

That's an excellent video!
It's easy for me to hear and understand him. He uses a mild sulfuric acid solution in the first tank and a mild hydrochloric acid solution in the second tank and he refers to using this method in a black & white desired finish. He does not though, give specifics of the solution regarding ph or percent.






.

[Bill Graham]

Getting back into this kind of work, and on this one I elected not to take it back to white. There was a slight texture to this PH set, so I simply cleaned it up a bit with some 400 grit paper, and then started bluing and etching.

[chris dawe]

I'll weigh in ....00 steel wool ,a small stainless steel brush ( toothbrush size ) and comet on a rag or my finger tips for Damascus...weep holes are a pain in the ass but sometimes you have to deal with them ,I did have success with steam on a set of problematic bbl I made a sealed tube from 6 inch pvc ,screw on cap with a vent hole ( for those who dont like loud noises and a big mess) the other end solid capped with a rubber going to the kitchen kettle worked good but like Brian said the spots were a battle this was a rust blue job not Damascus,

great job on those bbls Bill

[Bill Graham]

Thanks Chris. Steam has worked really well for me, and I don’t have space to horizontal tanks, so I’ll stick with it. For carding after etching I use 0 or 1, and small carding brushes from Brownell’s.

[Mills Morrison]

Amazing work!!!

[charlie cleveland]

looks good to me...charlie

[Richard Ranney]

I’m new here and have been reading all I can here and on the web as well. I’ve read Tom Flannigans work diligently, your input here, and spoke with Dale Edmonds briefly on the phone. You guys have some incredible knowledge and experience regarding Damascus so I have some questions to clear my confusion.
I’m working on a 1906 LC Smith double hammer that’s Damascus. There were some very feint indications of a pattern in small spots under bright light. I’ve polished with 400 grit and ready to use Laurel Mountain. I know every set is different so here’s my questions and thoughts.

I intend to rust, and card dry with denim twice prior to first boil. Will rusting twice prior matter?
When carding do I attempt to make the rust blend perfectly, and how much rust gets removed? Until it all disappears?
After boiling, should I let them cool prior to carding? I’ll be carding with the barrels submerged.
When removing the oxide created on the first boil, does all of it get removed or is there an even darkness left? I’m assuming that I would see some pattern beginning to emerge.
How much pressure should I apply when carding after etching with 3/o or 4/o steel wool?
I’ll be using Ferric to etch and probably the soda solution while carding.

I appreciate all input I can get for this. Oh, I will strive to get my barrels done as well as the photos in this thread! They’re beautiful. Awesome work gentlemen.
Richard

[Tom Flanigan]

I’m new here and have been reading all I can here and on the web as well. I’ve read Tom Flannigans work diligently, your input here, and spoke with Dale Edmonds briefly on the phone. You guys have some incredible knowledge and experience regarding Damascus so I have some questions to clear my confusion.
I’m working on a 1906 LC Smith double hammer that’s Damascus. There were some very feint indications of a pattern in small spots under bright light. I’ve polished with 400 grit and ready to use Laurel Mountain. I know every set is different so here’s my questions and thoughts.

I intend to rust, and card dry with denim twice prior to first boil. Will rusting twice prior matter?
When carding do I attempt to make the rust blend perfectly, and how much rust gets removed? Until it all disappears?
After boiling, should I let them cool prior to carding? I’ll be carding with the barrels submerged.
When removing the oxide created on the first boil, does all of it get removed or is there an even darkness left? I’m assuming that I would see some pattern beginning to emerge.
How much pressure should I apply when carding after etching with 3/o or 4/o steel wool?
I’ll be using Ferric to etch and probably the soda solution while carding.

I appreciate all input I can get for this. Oh, I will strive to get my barrels done as well as the photos in this thread! They’re beautiful. Awesome work gentlemen.
Richard

A few of comments:

1. I polish no finer than 230. The coarser grit provides a better surface for the compound to grab and the barrels will wear better than with finer grit.

2. Card with 4/0 steel wool after the boiling process. Card until all the rusting residue is removed. The barrels will be gray at first but will darken with each iteration. You don’t have to worry about carding off the bluing that is building up. It is tough and will not be diminished with 4/0 steel wool. Card until the barrels are perfectly smooth.

3. It is better to let the barrels cool because cooled barrels are easier to handle. Use clean cotton gloves while carding. Use no gloves with a rubber surface. No need to card submerged barrels. It is much better to let them dry and cool somewhat before carding. Its much easier and you can better see that all the residue is removed. Card as hard as necessary to remove the residue.

4. After the barrel etch, apply baking soda to stop the rusting process and run the barrels under the faucet and thoroughly rinse them. Then I gently card the barrels with a baking soda slurry on my fingers to get the contrast.

[Richard Ranney]

Thank you for responding Tom. I’ve read your articles and they’re very helpful. I’ve rusted twice already and it appears I’m on track. I will attempt the first boiling tomorrow. I did wipe loose rust powder off going the full length of the barrels with a clean cloth. For clarification, you’re saying NOT to card submerged after boiling? Will being aggressive create scratches? That’s a concern of mine as well. I also want to clarify etching. I’m under the impression that etching will help develop the contrast. Is this correct?
Richard

[Tom Flanigan]

Thank you for responding Tom. I’ve read your articles and they’re very helpful. I’ve rusted twice already and it appears I’m on track. I will attempt the first boiling tomorrow. I did wipe loose rust powder off going the full length of the barrels with a clean cloth. For clarification, you’re saying NOT to card submerged after boiling? Will being aggressive create scratches? That’s a concern of mine as well. I also want to clarify etching. I’m under the impression that etching will help develop the contrast. Is this correct?
Richard

Hi Richard,

1. I believe you will get better results by boiling after each rust iteration. The barrels will be much easier to card after the orange oxide turns to black after boiling.

2. Don’t try to card the barrels in the boiling tank. It takes a long time to cool down and there is nothing to be gained. You can easily see the residue with dry cooled barrels. No point in making things harder than they need to be.


3. Being aggressive carding with 4/0 steel wool is a good practice after the boiled barrels are cooled after the blackening process. Card as hard as you like. You will not scratch the barrels.

4. Etching is the process used to bring out the Damascus contrast. Be very careful carding at this stage. Go easy with the baking soda slurry rubbing softly.

[Richard Ranney]

Tom thank you. I’m doing my third boil this evening. So far looks good, I can already see the pattern developing.�� I’ll do the first etch tomorrow. I’m thinking perhaps 10-15 seconds with 2/3 etching solution from the radio shack bottle and water up to about 35” in my tube. Please correct me if I’m on the wrong path with that. If I can figure out posting pictures I’ll post some. It’s telling me to copy a URL location but I thought I could just attach pics.
Richard

[Tom Flanigan]

Tom thank you. I’m doing my third boil this evening. So far looks good, I can already see the pattern developing.�� I’ll do the first etch tomorrow. I’m thinking perhaps 10-15 seconds with 2/3 etching solution from the radio shack bottle and water up to about 35” in my tube. Please correct me if I’m on the wrong path with that. If I can figure out posting pictures I’ll post some. It’s telling me to copy a URL location but I thought I could just attach pics.
Richard



I always use a plastic tank to etch so I can watch what is happening and remove the barrels at the appropriate time. Over etching will actually diminish the contrast. I use a 50/50 etch to water solution and carefully watch what is happening to the barrels, removing them at the appropriate time. Each barrel is different, but my etch times are generally 10 seconds or less.

[Richard Ranney]

Tom here’s my first etch. Looks like I’m on the right path.

[Aaron Beck]

Pardon, but what is (C-26 (X-8) the rusting solution? I have used the laurel mtn browner which worked ok but found that it was very fussy with regard to overlaping strokes and wouldnt tolerate recoating without forming the cuprous oxide which then got in the way of subsequent rust.

[Tom Flanigan]

Tom here’s my first etch. Looks like I’m on the right path.

very nice!!

[Breck Gorman]

C-26 is a rusting solution formula listed in R H Angier’s book Firearm Bluing and Browning. Also known as “Birmingham Brown for Twist”. Oscar Gaddy modified the formula, because one of the ingredients, Sweet Spirits of Nitre, was banned by the FDA after several children died and is no longer available. It was used as a cold sore treatment and fever reducer. It’s function in the formula was to speed evaporation to eliminate runs, so Gaddy substituted ethyl alcohol.
C-26 recipe calls for 50 grams of mercuric chloride. Keep in mind that 2 grams of mercuric chloride can be fatal. Take precautions if you decide to use it. Never dry card without wearing a respirator, or you will inhale it. It also causes insanity. It was used in the making of beaver fur top hats, and was the reason the phrase “Mad as a Hatter” came about. Mercuric chloride must be disposed properly. It is devastating to any aquatic environment. You can’t just flush it down the sink. Kolar was using it in their bluing process and the EPA traced it from the waste water treatment plant back to them and the fine was considerable. Art’s (Herter’s) Belgian Blue also contains Hg2Cl2

[Aaron Beck]

Thank you for the informative reply.

[Bill Graham]

Enjoying some better outcomes with black and white lately. Switched my process and gear around a little bit. This is from an 1874 lifter.

[Dean Romig]

That’s a really nice contrast Bill!





.

[Bill Graham]

That’s a really nice contrast Bill!
Thank you, Dean. Thankfully, I’m still able to avoid using logwood.

[Richard Ranney]

Those are beautiful Bill! As someone new to doing these, would you explain to me why these look ‘white’ when they’re actually steel? Or is the contrast just so great that it appears white? The LC Smith’s I’m finishing up are black and a matte silver color as they were manufactured, but I’d like to learn everything I can about this process. I’ve enjoyed doing these and may look to do more.

[Drew Hause]

The pattern (either ‘browning’ or ‘black & white’) seen in damascus barrels is related to the different rate of oxidation of the very low carbon steel (rapidly rusting and black) vs. the corrosion resistant wrought iron (white) when exposed to a mild acidic solution.

[Richard Ranney]

Drew I appreciate and have read all I’ve found on your posts here, on other forums, and anything you’ve provided links for regarding Damascus. I completely understand your response here. Thank you.