Parker Leads...Others Follow

[Drew Hause]

Sir Joseph Whitworth's adaptation of Bessemer's principle of hydraulic pressure casting was patented in 1874. The first Purdey Pair Nos. 10614 & 10615 were delivered January 1, 1880 with the "New Whitworth Fluid Pressed Steel". Lefever Arms Co. offered Whitworth steel for the Optimus in 1887, but Hunter Arms did not for the Smith Monogram, A2, and A3 until 1895.

[Drew Hause]

Harry posted that fluid steel was not offered on DH Parkers until 1897. Could someone please tell me the composition of Titanic and Acme barrel steel, and their source? Thank you.

[Dave Suponski]

Drew,Titanic preceded Vulcan by about two years. I believe Acme steel came into the picture about 1910..I think..As far as their source...let me do some looking.

[Drew Hause]

And regarding the barrel tube source:

Field & Stream May, 1909 "The Parker Gun" by Harry Palmer
http://books.google.com/books?id=6B5YAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA21&dq#v=onepage&q=&f=false
In the first place, the material that goes into the Parker is the best that the market supplies, the steel that is used in the frame and forend being a special stock made to conform to a physical test, which every bar received from the steel mill must stand, or be rejected. The gun is made entirely in the well-equipped factory, with the exception of the rubber butt-plates, and the tubes for the barrels, which are imported.

Thomas Hunter and W.A King 'fessed up before Congress in 1912 that all their barrels came from Belgium.

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of MetalsBy United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA900&dq=damascus+barrels&lr=#PPA879,M1
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman - Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter.?
Mr. Hunter - The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.
Senator McCumber - Does the American manufacturer use the unfinished importation?
Mr. Hunter - He uses what are designated in the present bill as "gun barrels rough-bored." That is what we import.
Senator McCumber - To what extent do you use those?
Mr. Hunter - Entirely.
Senator McCumber - You do not manufacture any of them?
Mr. Hunter - No, sir. We have no facilities for making shotgun barrels... they never have been able to make a figured barrel in this country. Years ago they tried to make what they call a figured barrel, Damascus and twist; but the effort was never successful, and it has been discontinued.

The testimony of W.A. King representing the Parker Gun Co.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA900&dq=damascus+barrels&lr=#PPA893,M1
Mr. King - I can speak only for our own company in so far as wages go. For instance, on the question of barrels, Mr. Hunter informed your committee that some years ago some of the manufacturers of this country attempted to make barrels. We made some barrels: we built an addition to the factory, put in some up-to-date machinery, and brought some men from Belgium to show our blacksmiths how to do it. Wo had to pay our blacksmiths not less than 32 cents an hour, up to 40 cents, and we gave it up, because the highest wages paid the Belgian blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of barrel are 11 cents per hour. That is what is paid to the highest-priced man employed.
Senator Smoot - In Belgium?
Mr. King - In Belgium: yes, sir. That is where all of our barrels are imported from, with the exception of our very high-grade Whipple (probably a typo for Whitworth) steel barrels.

[Drew Hause]

Now I'm REALLY confundido - no steel barrels listed on this 1890s Price List

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19025099/336889631.jpg

[Dean Romig]

Drew, I think the 1877 price list was probably misdated or modified at a later date and the date was not changed to reflect the modification. 1897 is correct for Titanic Steel barrels and Dave is correct about Acme Steel barrels being introduced around 1910. Another discrepancy I find with that price list is the omission of any kind of "Damascus Steel" barrels being one of the 'standards' of the C grade guns aside from Bernard Steel.

[Drew Hause]

How's this look?

Whitworth Compressed Fluid Steel barrels were first used on the Grade 7 AAH Pigeon Gun in 1894, Titanic Steel barrels were introduced for the Grade 3 in 1897, and Acme Steel for Grades 4, 5 & 6 about 1910. The Grade 8 A1 Special introduced in 1912 also had Whitworth barrels until after WWI, then Peerless Steel.

[Dean Romig]

That looks to be correct Drew.

I would, however, add a note that Titanic Steel barrels were the standard for fluid pressed steel barrels on grades 3, 4, 5 and 6 from 1897 until the introduction of Acme Steel on grades 4, 5, and 6 around 1910.

[Harry Collins]

In EDM's Parker Old Reliable I think it mentioned a rumor of Whitworth barrels to be offerd on AAH guns in 1894, however in The Parker Story it list 1895 in one table. I'm so confused......

Harry

[Drew Hause]

Check the bottom of p. 29 Harry http://asoac.org/bulletins/90_parker_parker.pdf

[Drew Hause]

This should be correct :banghead:

Whitworth Compressed Fluid Steel barrels were first used on the Grade 7 "AAH Pigeon Gun" in 1894.
Titanic Steel barrels were offered for Grades 3 - 6 from 1897 until the introduction of Acme Steel for Grades 4 - 6 around 1910.
The Grade 0 VH was introduced in 1899 with Vulcan Steel, Parker Special Steel barrels appeared on the Grade 2 GH in 1908, and the Grade 1 PH & NH received Parker Steel in 1917.
The Grade 8 A1 Special introduced in 1907 had Whitworth barrels until after WWI, then Peerless Steel.

And BTW: Hunter Arms Crown steel appeared with the introduction of the Pigeon Grade in 1893, Nitro in 1895, Armour later Armor in 1898 with the 00, and Royal steel in 1901. We have barrels with the LLH mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran on all 4.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19686599/309382810.jpg

Now we just need evidence that there was a difference in any of those barrels :rolleyes:

[Drew Hause]

More information courtesy of Josh Loewensteiner as published in Winter 2008 Parker Pages

Charlie Price reported a DH SN 79503 with Whitworth steel, but the gun has not been found.
Parker used Whitworth for the first AAH Pigeon Gun in 1894, SN 79964 delivered to Capt. Du Bray.
In 1895, a run of 14 DH and 1 BH with Vulcan steel barrels was completed.

[Jack Cronkhite]

And regarding the barrel tube source:
The gun is made entirely in the well-equipped factory, with the exception of the rubber butt-plates, and the tubes for the barrels, which are imported.

Thomas Hunter and W.A King 'fessed up before Congress in 1912 that all their barrels came from Belgium.
Senator Smoot - In Belgium?
Mr. King - In Belgium: yes, sir. That is where all of our barrels are imported from, with the exception of our very high-grade Whipple (probably a typo for Whitworth) steel barrels.

I read and re-read these references with interest. Do we know who in Belgium built the rough tubes or was it spread around? After 1912, was there a period of time that barrel tubes were built in Meriden by Parker Bros?

Curious.
Jack

[Dean Romig]

At about the onset of WW 1 the supply of barrels from Belgium, and quite possibly most anywhere in Europe including England, for all intents and purposes, pretty well ceased altogether. It was then that Parker Bros. had a need to source barrels in the U.S.A.

[Jack Cronkhite]

That makes historical sense. Sourcing barrels in the USA. Did Parker ever make their own for a gun that was from start to finish built by Parker Bros in Meriden?

[Dean Romig]

There is evidence that Parker Bros. did make their own barrels for a very short period on early lifters. There have been threads on the topic of Parker made barrels, in fact there was a thread last week that discussed this topic.

[Jack Cronkhite]

Thanks Dean: Thread is 3 pages back. Read it and the links. Appears there is an 18 month period where barrels were made. One assumes, if made, they also were put into production of a totally made in USA gun. Fairly rare in any event. Not being a student of the barrel making process, the big surprise to me was the barrel source for Parker was Belgium. Obviously, they were capable barrel makers. What is the history behind the disparaging JABC reference (Just Another Belgian Clunker) Were there a lot of el-cheapo guns built there? Were there equally many decent guns built there that suffer by association to "clunkers"?

Cheers,
Jack

[Drew Hause]

Sorry gentlemen but still recovering from a trip to Mexico, and not a vacation :(

This should help

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_1742r4n6vcz and

http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

The U.S. makers most certainly continued to source rough fluid steel tubes from Belgium well after WWI.

We've found the LLH of Laurent Lochet-Habran on Smith guns manufactured from 1914 to 1948. That of course does not establish when the tubes were actually imported.

The mark of Canons Delcour is found on post-WWI Smith, Fox, Ithaca NID (“Best Fluid Steel”) and Ithaca Lefever Nitro Special A-grades.

[charlie cleveland]

to my understanding the PLAIN STEEL BARRELS weremade by parker bros...or do i have this wrong......the gun i have has a patent date of 1874 on it plus serial no site says made in 1874....does this fall in the time period that parker made there on barrels....... charlie

[Drew Hause]

Charlie: I was waiting for a Parker expert to step in, but I'll go ahead and...step in it :rolleyes:
358 guns were made with "Plain Steel" which was used for a short period in transition from "Decarbonized Steel" c. 1875. The decarbonized steel was probably sourced from Remington; plain steel possibly.
The Parker ads found by EDM and John Davis only mention Parker making Laminated and Twist barrels c. 1878

[Dave Suponski]

Drew, To claify...Decarbonized steel was left over musket barrels from Parker Bros. contract with the US government during the Civil War.

Both decarbonized and plain steel barrels are considered by many to be unsafe to shoot.

[Drew Hause]

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74042&page=1&PHPSESSID=

[Dean Romig]

Hmmm..."crystal steel" begs the question 'what exactly is crystal steel?'

Is it possible that through some process the molecular structure becomes 'crystallized' like the examples we've seen of the burst stronger(?) Damascus steel barrels that seem more to fracture irregularly rather than split (usually longitudinally) as we see in burst fluid steel barrels??

[charlie cleveland]

i beleave i have this figured out now...remington was probably the makers of the plain steel barrels....carbonized steel seemed fairly strong after reading about how it was made...do i have this right....thanks for the info....one thing i figured out a plain steel barrel gun is rare but not worth a whole lot... charlie

[Dave Suponski]

Thank You Drew. Page 503 and 504 of the "Parker Story" talks of Remington possibly making the decarbonized barrels for Parker. A little later Parker changed the name to Plain Steel as Remington was using the name "Decarbonized" on their newly introduced double gun.

Also the authors believe that the "Gun Iron"barrels were made from surplus musket barrels being first used in the"Charles Parker Makers"guns and then carried over to the "Parker Bros" guns for a short time.

Drew...Thanks again for all your research.