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Phillip Carr
11-21-2016, 11:56 PM
I got back from the vet with one of my dogs. It seems while out hunting she tore her ACL's on both the left and right rear leg. She is a heck of a hunting dog but she is at least out for the season. She is 8 years old so still has 2 to 3 more seasons ahead of her. They gave me an estimate for surgery and I about choked.
Two ways to go one is at a cost of 5K the other is 10K. I just may retire her and let her live out her time in the back yard.
The other option I will try is a more natural approach using rehab, diet, supplements and possibly braces. I know we have a lot of dog knowledge on the Parker board. I am hoping you can share any of your experiences using a non evasive approach. Please feel free to share your comments here or PM me. All help is appreciated.

http://parkerguns.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51262&stc=1&d=1479786650

Craig Larter
11-22-2016, 06:27 AM
I had a Lab that tore both CCL's cranial crucrate ligaments (the equivalent of a ACL in humans). I elected to have the TPLO surgery done and it was very successful, but she was under 2 years old. For a canine athlete my advise is TPLO surgery (the more expensive option) is the only way to go. Since your dog would require over a year to fully recover and since she is 8, I would retire her. Very crushing, I feel sorry for you it is a real blow to a dog man. Good luck with your decision,

Phillip Carr
11-22-2016, 06:47 AM
Thanks Craig, yes it is the CCL, I keep referring to it as the ACL which it is not. The surgery due to her age is not a good option. Time to retire her unfortunately.
I am planning on trying to use alternate treatments to improve her stability, and reduce any discomfort. I have seen some braces and may try them.

Dean Romig
11-22-2016, 08:18 AM
There have been discussions on this topic on the Shooting Sportsman forum under the 'hunting dogs' heading by some top dog men.





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Phillip Carr
11-22-2016, 08:21 AM
Thank you Dean, I will have a look right away.

Dean Romig
11-22-2016, 08:37 AM
I can't say how helpful they will be but they were good discussions of opinions and experiences.





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Dean Romig
11-22-2016, 08:49 AM
Search keywords...

Is surgery really necessary for dog's...





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Bill Bates
11-22-2016, 11:14 AM
I went through this with one of my setters 3 years ago. My six year old setter blew his knee out a week before the season. I guess I'm glad I live where I do the repair surgery cost about $1500 from a vet recommended by my regular doc.

The surgery was successful but the recovery time was well over a year. The worst part was the first couple months where I had to keep a very active setter from running or playing. Then it was slow going; kind of a two steps forward, one step back sort of thing.

One downside is the vet tells me that dogs that have this sort of problem tend to sooner or later have the other knee go. So far I've been lucky, knock on wood, my dog has been okay.

Brian Dudley
11-22-2016, 11:19 AM
My dog (not a hunting dog) had two torn ACLs. We elected not to have any surgery done and he recovered fine with just limiting his activity and administering anti-inflamitory medication.

Keep in mind that the different types of surgeries are just methods of stabilizing the joint so that scar tissue can develop in the proper way. The same thing can be done with activity limitation so that the scar tissue will repair the joint naturally.
Why would bones need to be cut and altered to correct the problem. ?
And the other proceedure (not usually recommended for bigger dogs) where a rubber band is put in, thay are basically designed to stretch out or eventually break over time. But the hopes are that the band will fail after scar tissue has done its job.

Just my thoughts based on my experiences.

David Fishley
11-22-2016, 11:46 AM
At torn ACL is a tendon and torn tendons do not heal, fuse, or any other thing. They remain torn without surgery to tie them back to the bone. Chemicals of any kind either synthetic or natural will not fix the situation. A dog with a torn ALC and no repair may learn to compensate and get around but a hunting dog or competition dog it will no longer be. You can expect a limp and most probably early arthritis.

My good friend and field trialer had a ACL tear in June on one of her labs. It is just getting better and always under constant supervision while out but he tore the other side this weekend just loping around on cut grass.

Phillip Carr
11-22-2016, 11:24 PM
Thanks guys I received my 3rd opionion today. Nothing sounds like a great option. I appreciate the feedback.

Rich Anderson
11-23-2016, 10:02 AM
I had a GSP that this happened to probably close to 20 years ago. Surgery was $2K then. He recovered but didn't hunt again as his knee just couldn't take it The vet told me he would probably never hunt again but the option of doing nothing would probably lead to problems with the good leg as he would favor that one.

Brad Bachelder
11-23-2016, 02:12 PM
Phil
I just went through it with my best buddy. He tore it last spring. We tried the conservative approach without results. In July we went the surgery route, He recovered well and was hunting again by october. He tired easily but was able to keep up. I thought we were over it and took him in for a check up. The Dr. said that he had an ear infection and treated him. A week later he was totally deaf. he works off verbal as well as hand commands. We tried a preserve hunt but it was disasterous, he got lost in the tall grass and ended up at the start of the field. Needless to say his ten year career is over. I was told that the medicine c aused deafness in some cases. I was not told that before they administered it. Good luck, I hope it works out well for you.

Brad

David Fishley
11-23-2016, 03:33 PM
Brad,
I would be very interested to know what medicine you think caused the deafness.

Thanks.

Brad Bachelder
11-23-2016, 03:55 PM
David

Iwill find out the name of the med and post it.

Brad

Phillip Carr
11-23-2016, 08:59 PM
Thanks guys for the information. It's good to have a place where you can discuss things and get honest feedback from others experiences.

Well I had a conversation with Missy today, told her it looked like she was moving into the house and her hunting days were probably over, she seemed to take the news better than I did giving it.
That conversation behind us I bought her a new bed and moved it to my den. Missy's accepting the new arrangements quit well.
She has been my go to dog for some time, always that dog that could be counted on to be put back on the ground at the end of a day an help you finish out a limit.
It's now time for Scout the pup I wrote about last year in the Parker pages to step up. He's ready.
One quick story in her honor. Chris Dawe joined me last year for a week of chasing birds. We had hunted all three dogs earlier in the day and dispite our opportunities had not, let's say we had not done as well as we should have.
Putting Missy and her litter mate Bell, back on the ground they struck out and shortly the dogs were into the birds and the game started The dogs split up and were several hundred yards apart when suddenly they both went on point. Moving towards Bell I informed Chris that Missy was on point over 200 + yards away. Moving into position to shoot, I told Chris we would flush this covey and then move on to Missy.
When the action was over a couple of birds were added to the bag.
Then off to find Missy.
By the time we got to Missy, 25 minutes had passed and the excitement of birds flushing, Double guns going off and the excitement of Chris and I excitedly talking about what had taken place.
Topping a small hill there stood Missy staunch on point, head and tail up and like a statue still holding the birds. Chis and I moved forward and a dozen Mearns quail flushed with the turrrrrrrrr of multiple wings and the distinctive peeping sound you hear when a Mearns covey busts at your feet in cover you have searched and swore held no birds ans that birds had long moved on from.
Not only does this jump start your heart, but without words sums up in in a micro second why we hunt.
Both Chris and I snapped the 20 gauges to our shoulders and like it was a made for movie footage, dropped two birds.
At the report Missy moved forward with Chris and I laughing and encouragements to fetch um-up. Missy darted forward 20 yards and picked up one of the birds then switched directions dropping the bird she held in her mouth on top of the other downed bird.
Without hesitation she scooped both of them up and delivered them to my hand. I was in awe with her performance and can not discribe how proud I was to have a true friend and hunting partner witness such a performance .
No need to brag on Missy, no words are needed. Missy did what she was bred to do no training needed what she did was using a intelligence that you can not train.
She was ONE with these hunters that day.
The sun was almost down when Chris And I crossed the last little trickling creek were the dogs drank from the cool water.
Chris and I had both managed as I recall, a limit of birds,. No two hunters and three dogs had ever experienced a more satisfying day in the field.

I have struggled for days on what to do. I think I know now. I was going to ask, but I think after writing this I know the answer.
If I am fortunate to life a long life and yet can no longer can go to the field. What would I rather have, a fine shotgun in the safe, $10,000 in the bank that it might bring (as long as my family is provided for), or memories of hunting a couple more seasons over Missy with good friends?
I can not foresee the future but my guess is the memories.

David Fishley
11-24-2016, 02:20 AM
And that my good man is the right choice. No inanimate object including money can take the place of a life well loved.

chris dawe
11-24-2016, 07:08 AM
Her bed will be fine in my room:)....I remember that day vividly ,and every other one I spent with you last year ,Missy is a great dog and there's no exaggeration in Phils story , other than I did indeed shoot a limit only to loose one out of my vest ,if I had to pick one- that day as I recall was one of the finest day's bird hunting I ever experienced,with Missy and Belle pointing covey after covey over an impossible ridge ,I shot poorly out of sheer excitement and disbelief of country ,dogs and birds .... I feel pretty lucky I got to hunt over her last Fall....and in just a little better than a week Ill be walking up birds over Scout and Belle once again,and coming back in the evening to drink a cold beer and tell Missy all about how much better she would have done it !

calvin humburg
11-24-2016, 07:40 AM
That is a nice looking dog. Hope she gets well enough to go a little sometime. Brad, i fell for you aswell that is sad. I need to get a pup behind Sam, this is a reminder. Got to love our dogs for sure. ch

Brad Bachelder
11-28-2016, 03:31 PM
Imentioned a brand of eardrops that caused Max to go deaf. the brand name is Otomax

Brad

Phillip Carr
12-27-2017, 11:02 PM
It's been over a year since Missy tore her CCL’s. After feed back from members, speaking with a vet again, and researching on line I opted to not do the surgery. I treated her with salmon oil capsules, and Novox for pain.
I didnt restrict her movement but had her take the hunting season off and did no training for 6 months. Missy had the full run of the back yard and I let her do what she wanted. First 3 months no major improvement.
By 6 months she seemed to wrestle with the other dogs and showed great improvement only occasionally required anything for pain.
After 9 months no more pain meds except after training on planted birds for 30 minutes or less. By 11 or 12 months no indication of lamness after training that day or the next morning even without Novox.
Started hunting Mearns quail the first of December using her for less than an hour with a day or two rest in between. Yesterday she covered 5 miles per the GPS. Up and down the hills like there was never a problem. She managed to find me 3 coveys and retrieve 3 birds. I figured the real test would be what she would look like this morning.
Well she met me at the back door for her breakfast and was moving better than I was that early in the morning.
Im pretty pleased with the results. Possibly I was lucky and it may have just as easily not worked out, but I am sure please how things have turned out so far.

Daryl Corona
12-27-2017, 11:08 PM
That's just a great dog success story. Congratulations on your treatment.

Rich Anderson
12-28-2017, 08:05 AM
Phil I'm glad it worked out for you and especially for Missy.

chris dawe
12-28-2017, 09:00 AM
Phil that's fantastic news ,she's a fantastic dog !!!!

Phillip Carr
02-11-2019, 12:28 AM
Just thought I would bring this back to the top as an update.

Mearns quail season ended today but not before a great hunt yesterday.
3 years ago I would never have believed Missy would have had a day like this.
I guess the good lord must also love bird dogs
Yesterday afternoon Missy just would not quit and accounted for 11 birds. She is 11 years old and was absolutely on fire.
She is showing her age but her heart is still in it.
We decided to walk the road back for the last mile to the truck but Missy would not walk on the road with us, and the other dog.
She kept searching out the ravines beside the road and found us some real bonus birds. A single, a 7 and a 12 bird covey.
My hunting partner David whom sold me Missy and helped me train her wanted a picture for his scrap book.
I’m posting because I am so proud of her.

Dean Romig
02-11-2019, 08:07 AM
You have every reason to be proud of her! Great spirit and drive in that girl!





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Daryl Corona
02-11-2019, 08:47 AM
I think you are right Phil, God must love bird dogs. Thanks for the great photo and congrats on the great close to your season. Please give Missy a scratch behind her ear for me. Job well done ole' girl.:bowdown:

Mearns are on my bucket list as are scaled. We only have bobs here in Maryland. Someday soon as my dogs are getting up there.

Ed Norman
02-11-2019, 07:44 PM
PhilC,
Congratulations, I am really glad your dog pulled through. My wife and I rescued a brittany in nov. 2017 and he weighed 69 pounds. My buddy that had a big brittany said he had more leg problems than his 3 other dogs put together. I keep trying to keep his weight down, but almost expect a shorter hunting life with him because of his weight. I hope he proves me wrong. I will remember this thread, thank you for starting it.

Phillip Carr
02-11-2019, 08:01 PM
Thanks guys for the positive comments. Missy has accounted for a few hundred wild birds for me. I hope she has a few more in her. A lot of the areas we hunt are really tough on a dog. Just a few pictures of some of the areas they hunt.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/56240_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/56240_600x400/)

If you look close and expand the picture you will see Missy about center and to the right.
On Point 180 yards from us.

Phillip Carr
02-11-2019, 08:11 PM
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/56241_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/56241_600x400/)