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charlie cleveland
06-15-2010, 04:17 PM
just found a place to get roo crimping tools from the 8 ga down to tge 410 ga. i got me one of the 8 ga have not used it yet. ballistic products inc. are the ones that has these tools.there prided right to i think the 8 ga cost about 33.50 mailing inclued. charlie

charlie cleveland
06-17-2010, 12:28 AM
i used that roll crimping tool last night it worked pretty good for me. i used a hand held drill afella with astationary drill press would have better results. as they say practice makes perfection easier. charlie

Harry Collins
06-17-2010, 03:39 PM
Charlie,

Did you buy one of their shell holders or did you make up something to hold the shell while you roll crimped them? I have the old style and have wondered if you could hold a hull with your hand and roll crimp with a drill.

Harry

charlie cleveland
06-17-2010, 06:19 PM
harry i was able to hold them in my hand. roll crimpingis new to me but i like the results of this tool. i loaded up mu hunting rounds with it gonna try it on crows in the morning. i loaded up the 3 1/4 inch winchester hull. primer 209 winchester primer.. 40 grains of alliant blue dot.used1/2 powder wad then used remington SP 8 plastic wadding.. then 1 3/4 ounce of no 6 shot. then split a 1/8 inch spaser and used it over shot then rolled crimped it with the ballistic products crimping tool.. made a fairly good crimp.. but just for shooting at targets i still prefer not to crimp my shells.you can get a lot more loads out of a casing if you do not crimp it. this load i loaded up is a real pleasure to shoot hardly any recoil.but guns weigh in at 13 1/2 pounds and 15 pounds . this load out performs my 10 ga loads. charlie

John Farrell
06-28-2010, 08:26 PM
One of the things you have to watch with the BP roll crimper is that it is designed to be used with a counterclockwise turn. So, if you use a hand held drill it has to be in the reversing mode. After struggling with mine for a couple of years making less than perfect roll crimps, I happened to look at the paper that came with it and in large letters it says, use it counter clockwise. The Reloading Specialties roll crimper is a clockwise design so it can be used readily in a drill press. John

charlie cleveland
06-28-2010, 10:07 PM
you are right john ballistic crimping tool is to be used in counter clock wise rotation. but most hand held drills are reversible mine is. does the prescion roll crimper come in 8 ga. charlie

charlie cleveland
06-28-2010, 10:13 PM
harry can you roll crimp plastic hulls with the old stationery crimping tools. if it is possible i have my eye own one that is a 10 ga. charlie

Harry Collins
06-28-2010, 10:37 PM
Yes! As I remember I rolled plastic shells. Paper shells roll like a dream. Let me roll some plastic shells and I will get back with you.

Harry

Robin Lewis
06-29-2010, 10:29 AM
Back in the 60's when I was a teen, I started reloading 16 ga. shells for my dad's model 12. All of them were paper and most had roll crimps, although it will do both style of crimps.

I still have the tool in its original box and the instructions (pictured below). It hasn't been used in almost 50 years.

Anybody else ever use one of these...... slow going.

charlie cleveland
06-29-2010, 04:21 PM
robin i am using one of the lee loaders like you have pictured. mine is a 16 ga i use it a lot on the 16 ga and in a pinch it will do ok on a 20 ga. i also use it to deprime the 8 ga and 10 ga primers.like you said it is slow but whena fella dont haveseveral differant loaders a fella with plenty timeon his hands can knock out a box in about an hour with this little loader. i think mr lee was thinking of me when he made this loader. my wife often asks me were all them little balls came from on her kitchen table. charlie

John Farrell
06-29-2010, 09:03 PM
Charlie - I don't know if Precision Reloading has an 8 gauge roll crimp. You can get to them online. Nice folks to do business with.

On another subject, I noticed when trimming hulls it is rare that any three out of 10 will be the exact same size, off by 1/16th perhaps or a little more. I finally figured it out. The trim is being done with the hull on a mandrel. The place for the trim should be determined from the base of the hull, not the mandrel using the basewad as the stop, if we want to have consistent finished loads.

Paul Harm
06-30-2010, 08:57 AM
I have a 12 and 10ga Lee Loader- yes they are slow. I've used my BP roll crimper on paper or plastic in a clockwise direction with no problems. Wish you guys had never said anything - now it probably won't work. Paul

John Farrell
06-30-2010, 09:56 AM
I have had BP 12 and 16 roll crimpers for almost 20 years aroiund in my reloading area. For the first 15 years I used them off and on, until I got PO'd over the poor quality and would quit making them. Then. I accidently RTFM, moved the drill reversing switch and voila, a better roll crimp. John

Paul Harm
06-30-2010, 09:57 AM
I went down and looked at my roll crimper - it can be used either way. Now I'm not sure of where I bought it. Paul

charlie cleveland
07-25-2010, 11:50 PM
just got 5 roll crimppers off gunbroker.. they were listed as 10 ga 12 ga 16 ga 20 ga 410 ga... got them a coupla days ago all were in good shape. i started doing varios ga. with them trhey worked fine till i got to the 10 ga it turned out to be a 12 ga. i was a little disapointed but not to bad... what i really had got was a 12 16 20 28 and a 410 ga and it turned out to be for a2 inch shell.what a surprise....but like a say they were real nice so i decided to keep them... im still looking for a 10 roll crimper any body no of one for sell... charlie

Paul Harm
07-26-2010, 10:45 PM
Buy one from BP's- they go in a drill. paul

Mark Landskov
11-13-2010, 09:49 AM
Paul, did you ever figure out where you purchased your 'ambidexterous' roll crimper? I must be the 'odd man out', because my 2 hand drills and drill press are not reversible! I also have an old 'bench crimper' for the 10 gauge. The handle is rotated clockwise. The crimper itself is brass. I wonder, do paper hulls require any sort of lubricant, such as wax, to produce a nice crimp?

John Farrell
11-13-2010, 01:12 PM
I got my counterclockwise (reverse) roll crimper from Ballistics Products Inc. about 20 years ago. Reloading Specialties has one that works clockwise, like your drill. I think BPI has finally gone clockwise with a roll crimper, too. Ballistic Products is in Corcoran, MN.

Mark Landskov
11-13-2010, 02:05 PM
http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/Reloading_Specialties.html

Unless I am looking in the wrong place, or they do not sell special tools, Reloading Specialties' website is of no help. I will have to call them about their roll crimper.

John Farrell
11-14-2010, 09:53 AM
OOPS!

I posted the wrong company for the roll crimper. You want to contact
Precision Reloading. 1-800-223-0900. In PR 2006 catalog the roll crimper is on page 12 for $9.95 and there is another one on page 15 for $24.95. I don't know the difference between the two for a $15 upcharge. Good luck. JF

Dave Miles
11-18-2010, 03:37 PM
The best roll crimping tools out there, are the old Lyman tool.
They're hard to come by, but they have them on E-bay from time to time.
There's a 10 gauge tool on there now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170567393981&ssPageName=ADME:B:BCA:US:1123

John Farrell
11-18-2010, 06:08 PM
Thanks, Dave. Good to see that you are still amongst us. JF

John Farrell
01-09-2011, 08:12 PM
Charlie - I am always on the hunt for a solution to a situation without spending a lot of money. I trained myself to completely ignore the shell holder for roll crimping at Ballistic Products which costs $40 plus shipping.

Eureka!!! I finally found a $5 solution to fill the need for a 16 gauge roll crimping operation. It is a used plumber's flaring tool for copper tubing with 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" sizes. The 1/2" will hold a .410, the 5/8" will hold a 28 gauge and the 3/4" will hold a 16 gauge hull. If someone wanted to use the flaring tool for only 12 gauge, the 3/4" hole (.745) could be opened up to .8125 with a 13/16" drill bit.

charlie cleveland
01-09-2011, 08:48 PM
thanks john im glad someone is on the lookout to save us reloaders some moola.....the idea of yours is a great one and i want have to buy one..my dad gave me the old flaring tool years back...but i never would have thought to use it for a shell holder...thanks again... charlie

Paul Harm
01-11-2011, 12:22 PM
I think the cheap one is plastic, the other metal. In all of mine the pin that does the rolling over is straight, so they should work either way - CW or CCW. Paul

charlie cleveland
01-11-2011, 08:48 PM
boy i sure havnot learned how to crimp plastic shells with the old paper crimping tools yet....must not be holding my mouth right....charlie

John Dallas
01-11-2011, 09:14 PM
Charlie - I think you need the Michael Jordon tongue-out technique?

Richard Flanders
01-12-2011, 12:11 AM
I did a lot of reloading of 12ga black powder shells for a damascus Ithaca S/S with a Lee Loader until someone broke into my little remote cabin and stole all my reloading stuff. It worked quite well. I started reloading when I was about 13 with an old Winchester set of my grandfathers. I still have some of the kit. Those old hand crank roll crimpers did a great job on the paper and plastic shells I was using back then. I did learn that they are not all created equal. One of mine has a nice solid brass machined head with a nice crimping groove that worked very well; the other, for 10ga unfortunately or I'd use it today, has a pressed sheet brass head that doesn't work worth a damn.

charlie cleveland
01-12-2011, 10:45 AM
im glad somebody else has trouble with the old crimping tools...richard i guess some of those old crimppers would do a good job on plastic but the ones i have will not...but i still have some paper hulls to crimp so i will still get to use them.... charlie

calvin humburg
01-13-2011, 08:38 AM
If you roll crimp do you use the same load? Do you have to shorten your shells? I want to do it I like the way they look and gives you something to wright your load on. ch

John Dallas
01-13-2011, 09:25 AM
For something to write on, I put an adhesive dot on the base of the shell and write on that. You can use a color coding system (the dots are available in a lot of colors) or write the details on the dot. Once fired, they can be peeled off and a new one put on.

John Farrell
01-13-2011, 11:49 AM
All you do is remove 5/32" of hull and thereby produce the roll crimp without abusing the hull mouth to make a good looking finished product. I'm shortening my 16 gauge Remington Peters plastic hulls to 2 9/16" from 2 3/4" so I am not taking off a lot. Using the same load as when I fold crimp, the roll crimp loses just enough hull so the roll is neat. I use a Lyman Easy Shotshell Trimmer which has a collar on the mandrel that the mouth of the case goes against. The collar on the mandrel assures a consistent trim which is not based on the thickness of the base wad as the Ballistics Product case trimmer does. I have found not all paper base wads, as in some of the Peters Victor paper hull, are equal.

If you work with paper hulls, I recommend that you rewax the mouths of the cases to get a sharp cut from your hull trimmer. To help that process, I will put the rewaxed hulls in the refrigerator for a couple of hours before I trim them. If you don't rewax the mouths and the paper is soft the cut end is raggedy with resultant poor roll crimps. The Ballistics Product hull trimmer works better on paper hulls because the cut is made in a guillotine fashion rather than rolling the hull against a circular disk cutter. You roll the hull around on the nylon mandrel and use the razor blade in a chopping fashion rather than rolling the paper case against it. Same goes for the plastic case with the BP trimmer.

As to the previous finding about using the plumber's flaring tool to hold the hulls while roll crimping them, I also found that the tool is useful for holding the hull in the trimming process with the Lyman disk cutter. The occasional resharpening of the disk type cutter on the Lyman makes the job go faster, too. JF

charlie cleveland
01-13-2011, 05:35 PM
thanks for the info john...if i can remember all this maybe i can get my crimps looking better....i do pretty good on 6 and 8 fold crimps but my roll crimps dont look to good sometimes but im getting better.... charlie

calvin humburg
01-14-2011, 08:53 AM
So I just cut 5/32" off my normal length and use an over shot wad like I use in realoading brass. best ch

John Farrell
01-14-2011, 05:00 PM
Correct as to the 5/32" removal. I found out today that the tubing flare tool works well when there is a leg on it to clamp in the vise. The changing out of the finished hull with the next is a matter of loosening the end wing nuts, taking the finished shell out and replacing it with the next. With the overshot card installed in the loaded hull the cartridge is placed in the flare tool while it remains in the vise, tighten the thumbscrews on the ends and the electric drill can have all the pressure needed applied in a horizontal fashion. BP recommends the use of an anti-sieze grease on the crimp tool to aid in heating up the hull mouth so it folds over more better. If I could figure out how to put a photo on this forum I could show more readily how the flare tool works.

Cal Lego
02-27-2011, 10:10 PM
Back in the 60's when I was a teen, I started reloading 16 ga. shells for my dad's model 12.
Anybody else ever use one of these...... slow going.

I bought one in 1966 to load 12 gauge shells for my Dad's Model 12 too! One day my Dad asked me where I was getting all those shells to shoot. He said, "You're not shooting those reloads in my Model 12 are you?" I fessed up and he asked me how they worked. We went down to the basement, loaded up 2 boxes and went up to my Grandma's farm and shot some "Blue Rock". We really had fun and I found out my Dad was a real great shot.

Cal Lego
02-27-2011, 10:18 PM
I roll crimped a few 10 gauge with the hand tool but mine didn't do too good of a job. I got the Precision tool that goes in the drill press and now just use the hand cranker to put the crimp on the paper shells.

I was pretty impressed! I used a top wad punched out of picture framing matting paper with a 3/4" gasket punch.

charlie cleveland
02-27-2011, 10:42 PM
cat thats a mighty nice roll crimp..looks factory to me my roll crimps are a lot better now but i still have not got them to look as good as yours.... charlie

Cal Lego
02-27-2011, 10:49 PM
cat thats a mighty nice roll crimp..looks factory to me my roll crimps are a lot better now but i still have not got them to look as good as yours.... charlie

Like I said, I was amazed! I just pushed down until I felt the case "give" a little and that's what I got. I only had 1/16" on some of them sticking up over the top wad. On the ones with almost 1/8", they looked the same. They really cause the case to look like you just fired a factory slug load but I was able to coax them open again with a tapered bullet mould handle.

Paul Harm
02-28-2011, 01:56 PM
I use a single edge safty razor blade stuck in a dowel at about 15 degres to cut off the folded crimp when I'm roll crimping. Just stick the dowel in the shell and mark the end. Figger out how much to cut and make another mark that much lower. Hammer in the razor blade and you're set to go. If you find the razor can't be tapped in perpendicular, use a thin knife blade to make the cut, then tap in the razor. I can't post pictures, but I'm very proud of my roll crimps. I found trying to roll crimp the folded part of a shell just doesn't give a nice roll crimp. Just loaded up a 100 10ga black powder shells and a 100 smokeless. The BP were paper roll crimp and the plastic nitro were star crimp. When shooting BP in plastic the end of the shell melts too much for me. The paper stays nice. Paul

Paul Harm
02-28-2011, 05:55 PM
John, how do you "rewax" a shell? Paul

John Farrell
03-01-2011, 10:55 AM
Paul - I am doing 16 gauge paper hulls. I determined that the interior of the 16 gauge is roughly 5/8". I finally found an appropriate 5/8" woman's electric curling iron from Wal-mart's online catalog and ordered one. About $10 shipped to the local store. The curling iron is a tubular unit with a concave finger that is operated with a thumb lever. I use common candle wax or paraffin that melt at 140 - 145 F.

Preheat the curling iron. Put the hull over the 5/8" heater and release the thumb opener for the metal finger. The exterior metal finger holds the hull against the heated iron. Hold the end of the candle or piece of paraffin wax against the heated iron and let the wax flow to the hull. It will flow along the heater part and the outer finger and coat both inside and outside the hull as you roll the hull around the heated curling iron. A pretty simple task.

Being a scrounger of many years, I found a plastic thingy with 27 tubes that would accept the 16 gauge hulls. I drop the hulls into the tubes, put a small metal tray over them, invert the tray and put the thingy with the hulls in the oven that was preheated to 170 F.

The wax will melt at 140 F. Leaving the hulls in the oven for 20 minutes, base down, distributes the wax down the hull. Remove them to the kitchen table to cool and you are done. Any excess wax on the outside of the hull will scrape off if you run the hull through a full length resizer. You want to make sure the hulls will chamber after you reload them, so try them in your gun after they cool so you won't be screwing around later. If you find there is too much wax after the oven treatment, just wipe the exterior off with a paper towel when they are still warm.

Send me a pm with your e mail address and I can send you a photo of the plastic thingy that I use to hold the hulls while in the oven. I think a plastic shell box for 12 gauge would also work for the oven warming since the plastic won't deteriorate at 140 F for the short time it is in the oven. JF

Paul Harm
03-02-2011, 12:13 PM
Thanks, I have it now. Paul

Steve Havener
03-04-2011, 12:30 AM
Charlie have you tried putting a bit of lubrication such as Vaseline on the case mouth before you try to roll crimp the case? I put a touch of lube on every second or third case and it sure smooths out the crimp.

Fishtale you can use the same load data in your roll crimped shells but you may have to cut down the hull a bit. Try trimming your 12 gauge hulls to 2 5/8th inches and your 16 and 20 gauge hulls to 2 9/16th inches. If you don't want to mess with trimming your hulls and your gun has 2 3/4 inch chambers just put 4 - 5 grains of puffed wheat or rice on top of your shot to act as a filler.

charlie cleveland
03-04-2011, 07:35 AM
steve i have not greased the hull but i will try it...but i do seem to be getting better at it..... thanks for the tip charlie

George Blair
03-04-2011, 11:59 AM
Charlie, I have only loaded plastic hulls with my old roll crimp tools, and have had pretty good results. The gentleman I got the tools from advised me to put a little dab of paste wax in the crimping head every couple hundred rounds or so. I use a Qtip and just a tiny amount of Johnsons paste wax...hope this will help. The hulls that I am reloading are either new or roll crimped that have been reconditioned. Skived or unskived dosen't seem to make much difference. My wife also wonders where those little round balls come from rolling around on the floor.

charlie cleveland
03-04-2011, 07:36 PM
geoge those women have better eyes than us men..my wife also wants to know where those little balls come from...i will use the johnsons wax trick....dont know why but the kitchen seems to be reloaders hangout... charlie

John Farrell
06-21-2011, 03:22 PM
A thread on the 16 gauge society site referred to a supplier of the hand crank crimpers. I contacted them asking if they ship from Italy or from an office in the US. They inform they "cannot ship to USA because of law". Whatever that means. They have these tools for all gauges but not available to US buyers according to Guiseppe at SIARM. JF

Keith Parrish
06-21-2011, 09:40 PM
checked it out I'm amazed they still produce these. I still like my old one though. Looks the same as theirs. I think if we get enough people together bugging them we might get them to open a business here and sell to US here in the States.

I have found with my roll crimping if I take a hair dryer and run it over the mouth of the hull with the heat it really helps give it a clean crimp. then I set them in the window to cool off after rolling and they stay tightly rolled.

John Farrell
06-22-2011, 10:20 PM
Unless they decide to sell their complete line of products to someone like BPI or Reloading Specialties I don't see them having an impact here. And they would have to crunch the numbers to make the products reasonably priced. Certainly, they could not wholesale a roll crimper (as an example) here at the 27 Euro price ($39 USD) and have BPI mark them up 30% to $51 and expect to sell a lot. The same goes for all their other stuff. In terms of marketing the roll crimpers, the potential buyer numbers are so small I would be surprised if even BPI would inventory a full line of the product. Nostalgia also has a cost limit to it. JF

Michael K. Burnley
06-29-2011, 12:23 PM
Charlie, I have an old hand crank roll crimper that I got off of Ebay that is 12 gauge and it works real good on plastic but not as good on paper. I also have the kind that you use in a drill that came from Ballistic Products that work real good on 20 and 28 gauge plastic. I use mainly Federal hulls in all my old guns because they are easyer for me to load low pressure loads. Also I have a hull heater called a Thermagic. They are kind of pricey ( about $70.00 ) for each gauge. I only have a 12 gauge. They work real good for straightening the mouth of the hulls out. Don,t know if this helps but there is stuff out there that works. Mike

P.S. Sorry for the wrong info, I just checked and the price has gone up to $83.63.
Mike

John Farrell
06-29-2011, 01:27 PM
Mike - See pages 3-4-5 of this thread where I discuss some of my procedures for roll crimping. After a lot of looking around, I finally located all of the stuff that helps make nice crimps in second hand stores or flea markets. Rewaxing the paper hulls is almost a necessity if they show softness because of age. JF

charlie cleveland
06-29-2011, 08:31 PM
mike i too have one of the balistic roll crimpers i got it for the 8 ga and it does a pretty good job..ive gotten better at roll crimping but every once in a while i still make a mess of it...my old hand rolling crimmper for a 12 ga does a good job on plastic but not so good on my paper shell they shoot ok but are not as nice lookin as i would like for them to be... charlie