Food for thought

[Frank Srebro]

Many of us have read that 12-gauge guns made for 2-3/4" paper shells were chambered to 2-5/8" for a better gas seal/transition of wads from shell to bore. And of course we're aware of Sherman Bell's testing of 2-3/4" shells in short chambers. OK, check out this 1904 advert. The new 12 ga Marlin is chambered for 2-5/8" and 2-3/4" shells. Great!

So, can we infer that any 12-gauge American guns made for the early 2-5/8" paper shells were chambered to 2-1/2"?

Also, 12-gauge 2-5/8" smokeless shells were made at least into the 40's by Peters and possibly others. And why was that? What guns were they intended for? :corn:

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/4-1-1905_zpshvxoxcjt.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/4-1-1905_zpshvxoxcjt.jpg.html)

[Dean Romig]

I'll bet Researcher can shed some light on these questions.

So then, what length shells was my 12 Ga. DH with Titanic barrels chambered at 2 9/16" made for?

"Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble."

[charlie cleveland]

dean the fellow who made the chamber length in your gun that day was dreaming of a 16 ga thus the 2 9/16 inch chambers...charlie

[Daryl Corona]

Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but the way I read that ad is that the Marlin is chambered for 2 3/4 so 2 5/8 can also be shot in it. Neat ad. Thanks.

[wayne goerres]

On the small end they may have limited it to 2 5/8" because it is a pump. It may not cycle well with 2 1/2" shells.

[Frank Srebro]

Correct me if I'm wrong Frank but the way I read that ad is that the Marlin is chambered for 2 3/4 so 2 5/8 can also be shot in it. Neat ad. Thanks.

Daryl, that's the way I read it too. My questions have to do with American factory 2-5/8" paper shells. If factory practice was to cut 2-5/8" chambers for 2-3/4" shells, then why would the factories be marketing 2-5/8" paper shells? For a 2-1/2" chamber? Were any American 12-gauge guns made with 2-1/2" chambers?

[Drew Hause]

No mention of the load length in the 1905 Marlin Model 19 ad

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/409786665.jpg

Back again 1913 Model 28 Marlin Repeating Shotgun

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/410244852.jpg

Stevens No. 200 20g "for any length of shell" in 1913
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1913/VOL_62_NO_12/SL6212020.PDF

[George M. Purtill]

Drew and Frank (and Dave who will probably chime in)- you guys absolutely kill me with these old ads. Thank you for the good views and information.

[Daryl Corona]

Good question Frank. Hopefully our info Guru Dave N. will have some input on this shell length issue.

[Drew Hause]

1897 Sears listing for hulls lists none in 2 1/2" (tough to read the fine print though)
http://books.google.com/books?id=CSVIpqnFMTMC&pg=PA546&lpg

Same with 1895 Montgomery Ward except 2 1/2" brass shells
http://books.google.com/books?id=zWel51IwQ2AC&pg=PA474&vq

[Frank Srebro]

Just an iteration here. Let's think about this. If period American "factory practice" was to cut chambers ~1/8" short for intended paper shells - were these shells made for 2-1/2" chambers?

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_2308-1_zpsgoqfv9zd.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/IMG_2308-1_zpsgoqfv9zd.jpg.html)

[Drew Hause]

This is interesting if correct; 2 1/2" 12g shells in 1927?? Unfortunately, neither the box label nor an individual shell are shown.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7595905

This listing for Ajax Heavies in the 1927 Paxton and Gallagher hardware catalog shows only 2 3/4" 12g shells
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/2011/03/wholesale-hardware-catalogs-part-2/

[Dave Noreen]

In the late 1890s and early 1900s our ammunition companies were offering smokeless powder loads up to 3 1/4 drams and 1 1/4 ounce of shot in 2 5/8 inch paper 12-gauge shells. It seems that between 1903 and 1910, 1 1/4 ounce loads in 2 5/8 inch shells disappeared from their offerings, and from then on only 1 1/8 ounce and lighter loads were offered in the 2 5/8 inch case and one had to go to 2 3/4 inch or longer 12-gauge shells for 1 1/4 ounce loads. Up to April 1940, the ATA allowed up to 1 1/4 ounce loads and lots of shooters used them. For at least 20 years Western Cartridge Co. offered a 12-gauge 3-inch Super-X Live Pigeon or Handicap Trap Lubaloy load with 1 1/4 ounce of 7 or 7 1/2. At various times both Peters and Remington offered such loads as well. I have seen some A.H. Fox Gun Co. production cards that state the customer wanted his gun chambered for 2 5/8 inch shells, but I've never had a chance to actually measure the chambers of such a gun. For those of you who are A.H. Fox Collectors Association, Inc. members, check the archives for the April 2011 Card of the Month, an XE-Grade two-barrel set with the long barrels ordered chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells and the shorter set for 2 5/8 inch shells.

In the days of two-piece shell boxes it seems that when the length wasn't stated on the label they were 2 5/8 inch shells, while the longer 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch shells were identified on the label. In one-piece boxes the 2 5/8 inch are often identified.

All of our North American ammunition companies continued to offer 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells and 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shells up to WW-II, while the 2 9/16 inch 16-gauge shells were offered into the early 1960s. Here is a 1934-39 style Remington SHUR SHOT box of 2 5/8 inch 12-gauge shells --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/1934-1939%202%205-8%20inch%2012-gauge%20SHUR%20SHOT%20front_zpsofe3lavy.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Rem-UMC/1934-39%202%205-8%20inch%2012-gauge%20SHUR%20SHOT%20load%20side_zpsqxledzkf.jpeg

[Dave Noreen]

This is interesting if correct; 2 1/2" 12g shells in 1927?? Unfortunately, neither the box label nor an individual shell are shown.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/7595905



I suspect the person who wrote the copy measured the length of the loaded shell. From this page in the 1926 Edw. K. Tryon Company catalogue states the 12-gauge AJAX HEAVIES come in a 2 3/4 inch case.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/U%20S%20Cartridge%20Co/1926_zpsmobnywdv.jpeg

The box on this catalogue page has the Lowell, Mass. address rather than the New York, NY on the box in the auction.

[charlie cleveland]

nice ammo ..i love to look at these old shells...kinda wish i had been born a little earlier in life...charlie

[Dave Noreen]

Here are a couple of pages from the January 2, 1942, Western Cartridge Co. price list. Note all the 12-gauge Xpert field loads on page 3 are all in 2 5/8 inch cases, but the Xpert Trap and Skeet loads on page 4 are in 2 3/4 inch cases --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/January%202%201942%20pg%203_zpsaaatm3ne.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Western%20Cartridge%20Co/January%202%201942%20pg%204_zpskpf9gpip.jpeg

The Trap Loads being in 2 3/4 inch cases is not because of the new Super-Seal crimp, they were all 2 3/4 inch roll-crimped cases back in the 1936 price list, well before the Super-Seal crimp came out. Actually their earlier Trap Loads in the FIELD or RECORD cases were in 2 3/4 inch, or longer cases, as far back as my collection of Western Cartridge Co. paper goes.

[George M. Purtill]

That's a great term- never seen that before. Are the boxes labeled that way?