Shotshell pressures circa 1906

[Frank Srebro]

Here's a neat advert dated May 19, 1906. Check out pressure specs for "ordinary loads" and the composite barrels shown.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/b450/silvers897/IMG_5369_zpsrrdcu7nc.jpg (http://s1044.photobucket.com/user/silvers897/media/IMG_5369_zpsrrdcu7nc.jpg.html)

[Daryl Corona]

Thanks Frank. There's those dangerous damascus barrels again.:eek:

[charlie cleveland]

mighty nice ithaca showed here...looks like those boys in 06 was shooting about the same loads of pressure that we do today... i ve been shooting damascuss gun s for about 55 years with no problems lots of old green remington high brass as gone down the barrels of these old guns ive owned with no problems other than maybe a sore shoulder....charlie

[Drew Hause]

The 1933 edition of ”Smokeless Shotgun Powders” by Wallace Coxe and E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co. reported the LUP pressure for 1 1/4 oz. 3 Dram Eq. of DuPont Bulk Smokeless at 9,600. Modern piezoelectric pressure would be about 10% higher.

In the 1928 edition, Coxe reported 3 1/2 Dram Eq. 1 1/4 oz. loads:
DuPont Bulk Smokeless powder - 11,700 psi
Schultze Bulk Smokeless powder - 11,800 psi
28 grains of Ballistite - 12,600 psi
Note: Pressures are beyond the modern SAAMI recommendation for 2 3/4" 12g of 11,500 psi.

DuPont Bulk, Schultze, "E.C." (all bulk) and Ballistite and Infallible (both Dense) were available in most c. 1906 shells, and 3 1/2 Dram Eq. with 1 1/4 oz. shot would be a common "Pigeon Load".

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19974446/402530012.jpg

[Bruce Day]

In the early 1920's SAAMI service load maximums for 12ga 2 3/4" nominal were running 10,500psi, so some of these loads were over that. With Parkers of the era and before intended for 10,500 service loads, a person can understand that a steady diet of those heavy commercial loads of the time could loosen the jointing and stock.

Bringing those circumstances to present day, the same loads are still there. The manufacturers will tell you that their 3 1/2 dram 1 1/4 oz loads are ideal for pheasant and are at the SAAMI max. We were seeing one maker put up 100 shell specials at the Mitchell SD Cabelas made of 3 1/2 dram 1 3/8 loads of #4 shot. Really 11,500?? The ads were that was what a person needed for the 3 bird a day weekend.

The Ithaca ad is interesting because within 20 years the president of Ithaca would be touting his guns now made with fluid steel barrels and encouraging sportsmen to buy new guns because he alleged that the old Damascus barrels were likely to blow up at any moment. Forty thousand pounds! The few tests to destruction that have been done on 12ga 2 frame Parker 12's blew at around 28,000 pounds. What was the wall thickness of those Ithaca's ? .060 min and .180 at four?

[Dean Romig]

There are plenty of records in the Parker Bros. order books of guns going back to "tighten action".... I can't imagine why :eek:

[John Campbell]

...The Ithaca ad is interesting because within 20 years the president of Ithaca would be touting his guns now made with fluid steel barrels and encouraging sportsmen to buy new guns because he alleged that the old Damascus barrels were likely to blow up at any moment... What was the wall thickness of those Ithaca's ? .060 min and .180 at four?

After a lengthy career in advertising, I can confidently tell you the objective behind this early 20th century advert drivel is... Sales! Why?

1) Fluid steel barrels were just getting popular, and few sportsmen wanted the old Damascus.

2) Some other underhanded ad men put out some baloney that Damascus barrels would blow up with nitro powders. These characters were probably employed by a competing gun company trying to sell more fluid steel barrels.

3) Ithaca did not want to get stuck with a back room full of Damascus barrels.

4) They bored 'em thick and told the ad men to make up some believable copy that the unwashed would bite on. But Ithaca knew they were safe barrels to begin with.

5) The sporting pubs made more ad revenue.

A happy ending.

[Drew Hause]

The Ithaca "double thick nitro breech" bs started about 1900

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20991622/407287119.jpg

1903

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20991622/408932781.jpg


L.C. Smith started the "broad breech" marketing back in 1886 while still in Syracuse

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/14709515/382504867.jpg

And Hunter Arms the "Guaranteed Never to Shoot Loose With Nitro Powder" about 1897

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/14709515/391070400.jpg

One way Lou Smith found to dispose of the Damascus tubes; previously shared by Brad Bachelder. 1922 Lefever Arms Co. (Ithaca) Nitro Special (introduced in 1921) with fluid steel right and 3 Iron "Oxford" left tube stamped IHR, likely Heuse-Riga Fils known to supply damascus tubes on Flues models. Barrels were originally blued :shock:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/18015717/383954046.jpg

I'm thinking the barrel finisher knew :rolleyes:

[Bruce Day]

Interesting, Doc. The couple ( 2) Parkers I have examined that I thought were probably originally blued ( barrels only, not the frame) had significantly mismatched tubes.

I have posted photos of one of those here before with bluing removed as an example.

[Drew Hause]

Thanks Bruce.

More from Lou, and patently false in light of Sherman Bell's destructive testing

Jack O'Connor Outdoor Life 1942
A good many people resent being told that their much loved old guns were no longer safe. Just for the fun of it, Lou Smith (President of Ithaca Gun Co.) proofed (using 17,500 psi Proof Loads in 1942) a dozen or so damascus and twist beauties which were lying around the plant. Here's the dope: Most of the old timers busted loose with the first proof shell. The rest did with the second. Guns tried were cheap, medium priced and expensive: but all of them went. So if anyone wants to go ahead using modern smokeless stuff in a gun built for black powder, he can; but he can include me out.
Reviewing the findings Lou writes: "These birds who persist in using smokeless powder in twist and damascus barrels remind me of the guy who made a living by sticking his head in the lion's mouth at the circus. He got away with it for a long time; then one day he didn't!"

[Bob Hardison]

Thanks Dr. Hause. A great example of how we were bombarded with nonsense about twist and Damascus barrels. I have a late model 1911 with Damascus frame and slide from a reputable manufacturer. Obviously they do not believe the hogwash that has been associated with composite iron and steel. Bob

[Bruce Day]

That statement from Lou Smith was repeated as gospel by the uncritical outdoor writers. Its one that I am aware that researchers today have tried to find the test data without success. Smith's statement is inconsistent with modern tests and with his own company's statements to the public not many years before.

I don't know, and it would be interesting to know, when Mr Smith became an executive of Ithaca. It would be interesting to find that he was there when the company was representing to the public that its Damascus guns were "guaranteed not to shoot loose with any nitro powder" and that Ithaca barrels "insur(ed) absolute safety to the shooter".

Bob, can you post photos of the 1911? I'd love to see it. I have posted photos of a Win. Mod 1897 here before with Damascus barrel.

[Dean Romig]

As it always has been and ever shall be - "Money Talks" and the truth walks.

Everyone has their price. I wonder what (amount) made him tell such a bald-faced lie?

[Drew Hause]

Bob: Is the 1911 Damasteel?
http://www.damasteel.com/

Damasteel Purdey

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19228742/400285635.jpg

Bruce: this may be your 1897

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/20432700/364437844.jpg

[Bruce Day]

Well it is, yes. It was owned then by Buck Hamlin , then sold at Tulsa and now owned by a PGCA member here. It is a great and highly interesting gun, one which quite a few Winchester collectors were not aware existed. Another PGCA member here has an even better one, that one being the black diamond grade with extra fancy wood, checkering and a take down model. That gun cost three times the price of a standard fluid steel barreled Mod 1897.

[Drew Hause]

1902 H.H. Kiffe catalog courtesy of Gary Cripps
"The barrel of this gun has been proved with 9 1/2 drams of powder, and 2 1/2 ounces of shot."
I believe that would include the booby trap Damascus barrel :shock:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/24532497/408610473.jpg

[Bob Hardison]

Bruce and Dr Hause. Yes, the frame and slide of this 1911 is Damasteel from Sweden I believe and made by Caspian. I will get photos this weekend and post. Wow, never seen a Purdey but that photo shows one of the most unusual and beautiful shotguns I've seen (excluding Parkers of course). They probably furnish non-nitro shells because of the Damascus. Bob

[Drew Hause]

Bob: Rapid Solidified Powder (RSP) Martensitic Stainless Steel can be treated to a tensile strength of about 5000 MPa = >700,000 psi so your 1911 will likely survive the apocalypse :cool:

[Drew Hause]

Interesting timing :) Just ran into this propaganda

“The Winchester Model 97” by Pete Dickey in the Feb. 1985 American Rifleman
Damascus barrels were regularly offered up until 1914 [but] cannot be considered “Smokeless Powder” guns.

I guess 9 1/2 drams of powder, and 2 1/2 ounces of shot was not adequate proof :rolleyes:

[Bob Hardison]

Bruce: Damascus photos attached. Damascus slide, hammer & mainspring housing only. I built 3 of these several years ago, test fired & disassembled for finish application. Interest now returned & will probably proceed. Other photos are a 40 cal double stack I built for USPSA, an early aluminum frame Kimber & an Ed Brown Kobra.

Look forward to your Pheasant Fest update. Bob

[Bob Hardison]

Sorry, my iPad/network only allows one at a time. Bob

[Bob Hardison]

Last one. Bob

[Daryl Corona]

Awesome Bob. I also have a passion for 1911's and Colt SAA's. Damascus and case coloring are truly addictive.