Confused

[Rajan Anderson]

Ok I finally got a chance to take my Parker apart and look at the numbers but the Model that comes up isnt listed as a 10 gauge and I was told I have a 10 gauge.

Here is the information from the shotgun
Frame size is 20 (There is a very deeply engraved 2 then a lighter 0 next to it. I couldnt find 20 anywhere on the chart)
Weight of the Barrels is 3 (with a smaller 3 above and to the right of that 3)
Grade VH above the number 231344 then there is a V below the serial number
28" Vulcan Steel Barrel

Why isnt 20 listed on the chart for Frame size and how do I determine the gauge now without measuring the bore?

[Dean Romig]

Rajan, take an exact measurement between the centers of the "firing pins" and post the measurement here. Someone will tell you the frame size. When all else fails this is what will determine your frame size. The 20 on the bottom of the lug could indicate 20 gauge or it could be a 2-frame with the lighter 0 stamp indicating something else entirely. There are several marks on Parker barrel flats and lugs that we do not know the meaning of.

[Bill Murphy]

The gauge of the gun can be determined by inserting shotgun shells of different sizes in the chambers. The largest size shell that is a snug fit is the gauge of your gun. Judging by the weight of your barrels, (3-3), you probably have a 20 gauge.

[Rajan Anderson]

Ok When I measure the distance between the two holes I get 2.2 Centimeters.

I am a Soldier and dont really know much about hunting firearms but there appears to be ejectors as well. When I removed the barrel the left curved metal piece slid up then the right did as well. So I guess the cartridges wouldn't have to be plucked out. I wish I could just grab some shells and test the gauge but I am not in NC now and buying ammo isnt so simple in New York City. Just from my observation the bore looks smaller than my Mossberg 500 which is a 12 gauge. From what I remember of the last 20 gauge I saw the bore looked considerably different than my M-500. Another marking I just noticed on the barrel lug underneath the chambers is a 34 then the number 4 engraved on the rear. Im not sure if that means anything important. I will be taking pictures (hopefully they will turn out well) later this afternoon and posting.

[Dean Romig]

Rajan, 2.2 cm = 7/8" which I believe is a 0-frame and the 20 gauge Parker was normally made on the 0-frame.

The 344 you see on the lug should be the last three digits of the gun's serial number . . . no?

[Rajan Anderson]

Correct... I guess they shortened the serial number to put it on the lug. I thought it just might have been there for some other reason.
A 0 frame? Is that a common frame? I thought 3 or 4 was better.
So this was probably not a Man's hunting shotgun but something he bought for his kid to go hunting with him? or is a 20 gauge more popular for certain kinds of hunting? I dont know any men who own 20 gauges but of course everyone I know who owns a shotgun keeps the 12 for Home defense. I have one friend who uses a 12 for turkey hunting though.

[Bill Murphy]

A Parker 20 may be worth twice what a 12 is worth. Ejectors make it worth even more by at least 15-25%. How many triggers does it have?

[Larry Frey]

"I dont know any men who own 20 gauges":duck:

[Dean Romig]

Well Larry, I guess you'll have to secretly give me that 15" 20 ga. that you "don't have".

Rajan, the 0-frame is very common and was used, in addition, for the "light" sixteen gauge and for the early 28 ga. Parkers. Generally speaking, the larger frame sizes,1, 1 1/2, 2, 3, 4 etc. were used for the larger bores like 12, 10 and the obsolete (on this side of the pond) 8 gauge which was built on massive frame Parkers and weigh in around 13 to 16 pounds . . . not a gun you would want to carry into the Bob-white coverts.

[Rajan Anderson]

It has double triggers. There are some poor res pics of it in the albums section here. I will take better ones this afternoon. I have to run out to Ft. Hamilton.
Sorry about the 20 gauge comment. What I mean is that the guys that I hang out with own shotguns like Mossbergs, Benelli Tacticals, Saigas,etc... and a 20 gauge is something nobody talks much about. My turkey hunting friend made a face once when someone mentioned a 20 gauge and kept quiet while it was being discussed. I never asked him why. I have only overheard, read here or there that 20 gauge is what Father's start their kids out on or buy for their wife to convince her to come hunting with them. The only shotgun that I have ever fired other than a 12 gauge was a .410 at Boy Scout camp when I was younger.

[Rajan Anderson]

Dean,

This gun isnt too heavy to me at all. Way lighter than my M-500. When I hold it at the Ready it feels pretty good. It is a little over 14" from the front trigger to the buttplate. the buttplate seems to be original. It has a retriever in the middle of the circular Parker Brothers logo.

[Dean Romig]

You're right in that the 20 ga. is a good starter gun for kids and ladies but because of the relatively low recoil and light weight of most 20's it is an ideal gun for upland birds and light waterfowl work over decoys and a lot of fun to shoot clays with. Dedicated waterfowlers and turkey hunters will choose the 12 gauge 50:1 over a twenty almost all the time.
As far as home defense goes, a slug or buckshot from a 20 will kill 'em just as dead as a 12 will but some guys just like more power . . . nothing wrong with that I guess.

[Rajan Anderson]

Hahaha. Yeah, all of my friends are too "HOAH" I guess. Nobody owns any handguns that arent .45 ACP and 12 gauge 00 Buck is always around the house.

What is the general value of the 20 gauge like this with the ejectors,etc...?

[Jim Williams]

Rajan,
To try and sum up everything, it appears you have a Parker Bros. 20 ga. V-Grade shotgun (i.e. a VH 20). The V = Grade, which is next to the lowest grade, with "Trojan" grade being the lowest. The H = Hammerless, which means it has no external hammers like the older models did. It also appears that you may even have a VHE 20 instead of a plain VH, with E = Ejectors. Ejectors were an upgrade option. A gun without Ejectors will have just a plain Extractor. The difference is that when you open the gun after firing, the Ejector will kick the fired shell (or shells if both were fired) completely free of the gun, with the spent hulls landing on the ground behind you. A plain extractor will simply lift the shells up out of the chambers about 1/4 inch when the gun is fully opened, making it easier for you to grasp them with your fingers for removal. Please note that if an Ejector gun has not been fired, it will function just like a plain extractor gun and simply lift up the UN-fired shells 1/4 in. for you to remove from the chambers with your fingers. You can quickly tell the difference between Ejectors and Extractors without disassembling the gun by simply opening the gun and looking to see if the part that lifts the shells is one piece that spans across the bottom of both barrels (extractor), or split vertically into left and right halves so they can operate independently on each barrel (ejectors). Also, just because it HAS ejectors doesn't necessarily mean they are original to the gun - there were companies that offered aftermarket installations of ejectors on Parker guns. Also, Parker themselves would retrofit ejectors onto a gun that originally left the factory with extractors only. Unfortunately, your gun's serial number is not listed in the Serialization book that many of us use to reference. There are gaps in the records, and your gun is in one of those gaps. If it were in the book, we could tell you the grade, gauge, original barrel length, and any options like ejectors, straight grip stock, etc. If your gun has ejectors and isn't stamped "VHE" on the receiver, then you will have to have a person who really knows what Parker factory ejectors look like examine the gun to determine originality. Even if they are retrofits, if done by the Parker factory it adds to the value of the gun over plain extractors. If aftermarket, it adds nothing, perhaps detracts some even.

Unfortunately, you can't use metric measurements on Parker guns to determine much since that is not the "language" they speak. The proper spacing between firing pin CENTERS is 1 inch on a 0-frame. You have to measure from the exact centers of each firing pin, not just the space between them. I suspect yours actually measures 1 inch, making it a 0-frame. Other frame sizes add 1/16th inch between centers as you go up (i.e. a 1-frame is 1-1/16 in. between centers, a 2-frame is 1-1/8 in., and so on). The 0-frame is the normal size for 20 gauge, although they can be found in 1-frame versions, and even 2-frame. For the most part, a 0-frame would be the most desireable for a 20 gauge for most shooters and collectors, with a few rare exceptions.

I understand what you meant by the 20 gauge comment, but it probably raised a few eyebrows around here. You are correct that the 20 gauge is an ideal gun for many women and the perfect gun to start a kid with, but many accomplished wingshots prefer to hunt with 20 or 28 gauge guns because of their wonderful handling characteristics in close quarters and snap-shot hunting situations. Come down South and hunt bobwhite quail behind pointing dogs and a 12 gauge will be frowned upon (maybe secretly, maybe openly, but not in a SERIOUS way because lots of people do it). Among most quail hunters, the 20 or 28 are considered the proper gun, preferably a side-by-side double like yours. Some really good wingshots actually look at shooting smallbores like the 20 as a badge of their prowess with a shotgun, analagous to a golfing handicap. If you go on a dove shoot and there is a guy who takes his limit with a smallbore 20 or 28 and doesn't waste a bunch of shells in the process, he will be secretly admired for his skills, whether the other shooters admit it or not. So you see, the smallbore can actually be a "macho" thing in the right hands, rather than the other way around. On the other hand, you mentioned home defense, and a 12 is definitely the way to go there and on the battlefield.

Regarding value - grade, scarcity, originality, and condition are the key determining factors. You have a leg up on the scarcity factor, because 20s are more "scarce" than the most-common 12 gauge. 28 gauges are worth more than 20s because 28s are even less common, and .410s are the least common and by far the most expensive. Originality means that no one has done anything to the gun other than normal cleaning since it left the factory. There are varying levels of originality due to repairs and modifications that may have been done to the gun by the owner(s) over its life. Many guns have been "restored" which means they are no longer original and not worth as much unless they were totally devoid of any original finish to begin with. A perfectly restored gun will never be worth what a similar gun with a decent amount of original finish remaining will be worth. Also, modifications like cutting the barrels shorter will seriously impact the value in a negative way. One way to tell if the barrels were cut is to look at the top rib that runs along and between the barrels on top. It has wavy lines cut into its top surface to help reduce glare. On most (but not ALL) original guns, these wavy lines stop about 1/8 in. from the muzzle end, leaving a bare, un-matted space right about where the front bead sight is. This is a good indicator that the barrels haven't been cut. However, some original uncut barrels have been seen with the wavy lines going right to the end, AND, some unscrupulous people have been known to fake the bare spot on a set of barrels that have been cut by filing the end of the rib. An experienced eye can usually detect this, however. The most common length for 20 gauge Parker barrels is 26 in., but 28 isn't uncommon, and 30 is occasionally seen. Anything longer than 30 or shorter than 26 is very unusual in 20 gauge. In fact, be suspect if they are shorter than 26, but there are a few original guns with barrels shorter than 26.

If you want to get an idea of the value of your gun, go on www.gunsamerica.com and do a search for "Parker". Then sort through them and look for 20 gauge VH or VHEs, depending on which yours is. Try and find some that are in similar condition and originality and compare what they are asking. They might not bring the listed asking prices, but if you take an average you should get an idea of what the fair market value is.

Finally, thank you for your service to our country. Soldiers are always respected and welcomed here.

Jim

[Dean Romig]

My hat's off to you Jim - you made good use of your lunch hour. Well done!!

[Destry L. Hoffard]

There are plenty of grown men on there that shoot 20 gauge guns, though I can't imagine why really. *Hah!*

DLH

[Rajan Anderson]

Rajan,
You can quickly tell the difference between Ejectors and Extractors without disassembling the gun by simply opening the gun and looking to see if the part that lifts the shells is one piece that spans across the bottom of both barrels (extractor), or split vertically into left and right halves so they can operate independently on each barrel (ejectors). If your gun has ejectors and isn't stamped "VHE" on the receiver, then you will have to have a person who really knows what Parker factory ejectors look like examine the gun to determine originality. Even if they are retrofits, if done by the Parker factory it adds to the value of the gun over plain extractors. If aftermarket, it adds nothing, perhaps detracts some even.

One way to tell if the barrels were cut is to look at the top rib that runs along and between the barrels on top. It has wavy lines cut into its top surface to help reduce glare. On most (but not ALL) original guns, these wavy lines stop about 1/8 in. from the muzzle end, leaving a bare, un-matted space right about where the front bead sight is.

If you want to get an idea of the value of your gun, go on www.gunsamerica.com and do a search for "Parker". Then sort through them and look for 20 gauge VH or VHEs, depending on which yours is. Try and find some that are in similar condition and originality and compare what they are asking. They might not bring the listed asking prices, but if you take an average you should get an idea of what the fair market value is.

Finally, thank you for your service to our country. Soldiers are always respected and welcomed here.

Jim

THANKS for taking the time to put that out to me! I think that about squares me away! I have checked guns America and the 20 gauges that look like mine seem to be pretty valuable. I suppose if I were into hunting even moreso but I just like saltwater fishing. Freshwater here and there.
Far as my service, Youre welcome! I have been in since 1995 and its always good to hear that our fellow Americans are behind us. Sometimes the thanks, headnods in the airport, beer or two in the Restaurant paid for by a stranger,etc... go through our heads at just the times when we are doing the more unpleasant tasks of Soldiering. Despite politics of the war and things like that we all take note of those little things. It's appreciated.

There is a vertical split on the half moons so it seems they are ejectors. There is no stamp VHE on the shotgun anywhere that I have noticed so someone else would have to let me know if it is original to the firearm. I suspect they are because on the whole the gun doesnt seem to have gotten much use and looks pretty untouched to me. Someone took care of it. The little shield is still on the underside of the rear of the stock and all of that. I heard those little shields often fall off and things so it seems to be in it's original condition.

There is indeed a bare space at the end of the barrel so it seems that it was never cut down. Again.... THANKS!

[Jim Williams]

There are plenty of grown men on there that shoot 20 gauge guns, though I can't imagine why really. *Hah!*

DLH

I knew we'd smoke you out of your hiding place with that discussion!

Jim

[Jim Williams]

Rajan,

Not to worry about there being no VHE stamped on the gun. I may be wrong and there may be NO guns with such a stamp, but I thought I'd seen a few like that. I only have one ejector gun out of the 7 Parkers here, and it isn't stamped with anything but a "V". It is documented that it left the factory with ejectors, too. As you have no doubt determined, you have a very desireable little Parker in your hands there. It is a very finely made sporting arm, and reflects craftsmanship that is almost unheard of these days. Now that you know its value, you can maybe take your buddies down a notch or two with their big, black rattling shotguns. Please take excellent care of it, and don't do ANYTHING to it unless you first consult a gunsmith who is very knowledgeable in fine doubles. You can greatly decrease the value by doing simple things like refinishing the wood that you wouldn't think would matter. Just standard cleaning is all you should do.

Dean - well, I wasn't on my lunch hour, I had the day off. I just felt like filling in the details for him.

Jim

[Rajan Anderson]

Well... they are better than my last attempt but the flash didnt have the effect I intended. What do you think of it's condition?

[Rajan Anderson]

A few more

[Rajan Anderson]

more shots