Winter Project

[Robert Rambler]

I picked up an 1880, 10ga lifter gun a few weeks ago at an auction for a winter project. Now that winters almost over:rolleyes: I've finally had some time to devote to the project. A few warts need to be removed and some TLC applied, but she should make a nice shooter for Hammer Gun competition.
http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/side.JPG
http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/RIB.JPG

She looks pretty good inside after 130 years! The lock screws give witness to someone having trespassed before me.
http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/GROUP.JPG

It was like opening a time capsule to find the original case colors under the lock plates. The deep vivid blues with a touch of red and yellow are lost in this poor light.
http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/BLUE.JPG

[Robert Rambler]

ANYWAY! Enough rambling already! The real reason for this thread.
Do any of the more knowledgeable among us know the significance of the "P" inside a diamond, stamped on head of the the stock?

http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/STAMP.JPG

And how about the extra numbers on the barrel flat?
526 and 9236 ?

http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/FLATS.JPG

Thanks to any and all that can enlighten me. Bob

[Dave Suponski]

Bob,The P inside a diamond is usually found on early barrel sets.We believe it to be a Parker Bros. mark.Don,t know about the 526(inspector/vendors mark/) but the 9236 is most likely the guns order number.

[Chuck Bishop]

Hey Bob, great looking lifter. What kink of "warts" does it have? When you fix it up, give me a call and we'll throw some lead!

[Marc Retallack]

Hi Robert

Did you happen to pick that up at Horst's?

Cheers
Marcus

[Robert Rambler]

Hey Chuck! Just the usual "warts". Two buggered screw heads,the usual dings and scratches on the stock,remove one small dent and recolor barrels, clean out and freshen the checkering. The usual crimes that were commited when it was "just an old gun". Just got the letter back from Mark on Thursday and everything matches. Should make a nice shooter:)

It will be a while till this project is done,just finished soaking the stock and cleaning the crud out of the action,but I'll take you up on that slingin lead!
I have other Parkers that need the winter spider webs blown out of their bores.:shock:
Have you been to Blueridge yet this year? I could meet you there some Saturday and shoot a round together? PM me. Best Regards, Bob

[Robert Rambler]

Marcus, Check your Private Messages.

[Jack Cronkhite]

...just finished soaking the stock...

Robert: What product do you use to soak the stock? I'm assuming the purpose to be to remove old oil in the head.

Thanks,
Jack

[Robert Rambler]

Jack, A two or three day soak in acetone usually gets the oil out of the wood. The stubborn spots may require some heat and whiting powder. Steaming out dings and dents is next. HTH, Bob :)

http://home.ptd.net/~rrambler/CLEAN.JPG

[scott kittredge]

Hey Chuck! Just the usual "warts". Two buggered screw heads,the usual dings and scratches on the stock,remove one small dent and recolor barrels, clean out and freshen the checkering. The usual crimes that were commited when it was "just an old gun". Just got the letter back from Mark on Thursday and everything matches. Should make a nice shooter:)

It will be a while till this project is done,just finished soaking the stock and cleaning the crud out of the action,but I'll take you up on that slingin lead!
I have other Parkers that need the winter spider webs blown out of their bores.:shock:
Have you been to Blueridge yet this year? I could meet you there some Saturday and shoot a round together? PM me. Best Regards, Bob

well, fill us in on what the letter said :corn: thanks scott

[Robert Rambler]

Was orderd by Theo Carter, in Salt Lake City, Utah on March 5, 1880 and shipped June 10,1880. Order book #8 indicates it was a quality 2 hammer, 10-gauge. Featured Damascus barrels of 30 inches. Stock configuration was pistol grip. Chokes were patterned (195#8 pellets in a 24" circle at 45 yards) both barrels. Stock book #6 indiactes Length of pull 14 1/4, drop at heel 3", weight 9 pounds 4 ounces. Price was $85.00 .

[scott kittredge]

thanks, i wonder what the weight of the load of shot was to get that pattern? scott

[Dean Romig]

I wonder what the pattern or pellet count would have been at the standard forty or even thirty yards.

[Robert Rambler]

It would be great to have the original hang tag, and if listed, compare the load used to target the gun, to the pellet count given. Wonder if anyone has ever done any comparative research on targeted loads and pellet counts? W.W. Greener lists pellet counts at 40yds for 28,20,16, and 12ga but no chart for 10ga.:banghead: Currently the barrels measure .033 restriction.Guess I'll just have to stir up some brass hulled BP loads and find out.:cool:

[Bill Murphy]

The shot was probably 1 1/4 ounces of Tatham. I can't remember where we access the information about pellets per ounce by brand, but #8 is usually around 410 per ounce. I have a set of pattern cards for one gun, two different loads, two different ranges and target circumferences. I will try to make heads or tails of it, but the five yards and the small circle makes a big difference.

[Bill Murphy]

Thomas Carter was the sole agent for Parker Brothers in Salt Lake City during that time period. Kevin McCormack owned a B Grade that was shipped to Carter, Evans, and Company of Salt Lake City in late 1879. Read his article in DGJ Volume 13, issue 2, page 43. Notice the Thomas Carter broadside on page 45. Check with the PGCA historian to see if he could have misread Theo's name.

[scott kittredge]

ok, i did a test with my 10 ga EH 30 in 2 frame choked .021 in both barrels. i loaded 8's with a 1 3/8 th oz mec bar but it droped only 1 5/16 oz the shot count came to 553 to the load. i than shot it at a 30 inch patten board at 40 yds and i got 383 in the 30. this is .696% . ok this is not 45 yds and i did count the 24 in circle. (289) i do know nothing would have got out of the pattern with out a hole in it if it were bigger than a mouse :shock: scott

[Jack Cronkhite]

i do know nothing would have got out of the pattern with out a hole in it if it were bigger than a mouse :shock: scott

Never shot #8 but lots of 7 1/2. After decades of research, I have found that there must be pheasants smaller than a mouse, so I'm glad those ones passed through the shot string. They wouldn't have been worth eating anyway.

Cheers,
Jack

[Robert Rambler]

Bill, I just took a look at page 45 and think you are correct. Tho's could easily be mistaken for Theo when searching old handwritten manuscript.
Another thing to add to my research list.:)

[Robert Rambler]

Scott, Your test data seems to indicate 195#8's in a 24" circle at 45 yards to be in the realm of reality. Accounting for the differences in pellet count,chokes and yardage we're in the ball park.
Any 10 ga I've ever shot threw nice patterns,don't know if it's the extra payload or something inherent in the ballistics.
But you say you've got mouse holes in you patterns huh? I'd try mothballs in the shot hopper:biglaugh::duck: :cheers:

[Bill Murphy]

Parker Brothers claims, right on the pattern tag, that a pattern on a 30" circle at 40 yards will show a pattern of one half again as much as the pattern in a 24" circle at 45 yards. Those of you who are inclined, can prove or disprove that claim empirically. We'll be waiting for the results. I also have a set of tags for the same gun, 15 years apart, with percentages that are, oddly, much tighter on the later tag. I will order a letter on the gun and post the results here. I have seen the occasional Parker Brothers order that requests that the choke in a certain barrel be made tighter, but many more that request that choke be made more open. The letter may clear things up, but measuring the bores of the gun would be much more interesting. In case anyone here owns Parker #57,103, we may actually be able to measure the bores and chokes and pattern the gun in its present configuration. To clarify, I do not own the gun nor do I know where it is.

[Bill Murphy]

To "clarify" an earlier post, #7 shot is not the only size used in patterning Parker shotguns at the factory. Another point that I will make in the defense of our historian: The full patterning information is not always visible in the stock book copies that he has at his disposal. The stock books were too big to copy in one piece and sometimes the pattern information was the piece of the original stock book page that was cut off in the copy machine. Refer to stock book copies of various eras in The Parker Story to better understand the situation.

[todd allen]

Could this have been a pigeon gun?

[Austin W Hogan]

Simmons was well known for the quality of its work, and many championships, both skeet and trap were won with guns with Simmons ribs.
Collectors are a fickle lot and one should never equate collector interest with collector value. Collector interest can vanish very quickly as asking price increases.
There does not seem to be current collector interest in Parkers with ribs installed after delivery to the initial customer, by Simmons or other reputable firms. There is good collector interest in 34 inch barreled guns. Examining the production records indicates very few 34 inch barrels were sold with ventilated ribs.
Does or will the 34 inch barrel length trump the after market rib installer? We will only know when we count the number of bidders ( or buyers ) standing when one is offered.

Best, Austin

[Bill Murphy]

Is this an original Parker 34" gun? Does it agree with the Serialization Book entry for that gun? Simmons installed two different types of vent ribs on side by side shotguns. One type involved removing the original rib. Another type was installed on the top of the original rib. If the second type was used, it is remotely possible that the gun can be restored to original. Of course, if the gun is a good shooter, not in pristine condition, it is probably better to leave it as is. What could be neater than a vent rib 34" Parker? I would love to own such a gun. Try to get some pictures posted so we can give you more information. Yes, Simmons is still alive and well and has a website where they describe their services. The Simmons you are looking for is in Olathe. The website is "simmonsguns.com"