Engraved Trojan

[Bruce Day]

20ga

Why? Because Dick Washburn could. Now owned by a good friend who might have a few Parkers. He uses this for small bird hunting.

[Dean Romig]

Simply incredible!

And, why not? If you want to, and if you can... Why not!

[allen newell]

Wow!

[Jay Gardner]

Stunning.

[Bruce Day]

Well there are those done in folk art with varying degrees of success then there are masterpieces like this done by top engravers for their own use. When Dick sold this it cost more than a nice condition Trojan by far. I don't own it but would love to and would pay well for it if it became available.

Some of the forum experts say that aftermarket engraving always degrades value but we have seen many cases where that is not true.

Dick Washburn did a number of upgrades from v to a on 28 ga guns. They are lovely and costly

[John Taddeo]

That is absolutely fantastic....

[Tim Wells]

The whole idea of gun engraving, especially non-factory has always been to create a unique one of a kind work of art in steel. It just naturally enhances the value of any worthwhile firearm. If it decreases the value of the firearm it is because of poor design, execution or both, and I've seen a LOT of those.

Part of the goal of FEGA or the Firearms Engravers Guild of America is to educate the public on what hand engraving is and what good engraving and design is supposed to look like. This can only help enhance the value of a good design well executed on a gun when the public knows what good work looks like and can tell it from poor work.

Just look up some old Colt or Winchester engraved by non factory engravers (some where at time factory men but not always) Ulrich, Young, or Nimschke and see what value they have... if you have the funds. Some customers want a classic factory pattern on a new firearm but most these days want something original right out of the engraving artists head.

Factory patterns for the most part tend to be on the basic side especially animal scenes. They had to be cut fast and there was no time to put too much detail in an animal which is why they mostly looked like cartoons rather than lifelike renditions. There's certainly something for everyone in the world of hand engraving.

[Rick Losey]

looks great to me

if someone doesn't like it - i am sure there are enough stock Trojans out there for them to use

how many Sterlingworths get "upgraded" as well as Trojans or VH's - blank canvases for the right engravers

[Bruce Day]

....
Factory patterns for the most part tend to be on the basic side especially animal scenes. They had to be cut fast and there was no time to put too much detail in an animal which is why they mostly looked like cartoons rather than lifelike renditions. There's certainly something for everyone in the world of hand engraving.




Really? I didn't know that.

Parker AH grade, factory engraved.

[Rick Losey]

one thing that always gets me

we worry about a little pitting in the back nine inches of the tubes

but

we ooh and ahh over engraving cut deeply into the same general area

[Bill Zachow]

That has got to be the finest A1 Special Trojan I have ever seen. Thanks for showing, Bruce

[Tim Wells]

Really? I didn't know that.

Parker AH grade, factory engraved.

That's why I said "tend to be" which was certainly not intended to suggest all inclusive, and while those dogs for example are a little more detailed than what I was referring to, they are still quite a bit less detailed than what you would see on a gun that someone had a freelance engraver do.

This is because you are requesting a certain look and since the independent engraver isn't banging out "production" work he has more time and inclination to make more realistic renderings rather than an outline of a dog or deer or whatever.

If you care to look up some of the production work done back when these guns were new you can see varying degrees of realism even within the same brand. The higher in grade you go for instance, the customer would expect more realistic looking animals in a factory pattern and rightfully so.

My comments were not intended to degrade Parker factory jobs or any other brand, just stating a fact for comparison. When it was posted that some "forum experts" think engraving other than factory decreases the value, I couldn't disagree more and that is why I tried to illustrate my point the way I did.

Some folks like factory patterns and want original factory engraved guns only, so they seek those out. To such a person, a gun engraved by independent folks might not appeal to them and wouldn't see the value in it. While others are just the opposite, so different strokes for different folks I reckon. Either way, all engraving is intended to be functional art and done so that it enhances the value, otherwise why do it at all? Nice gun by the way.

[Dean Romig]

Factory patterns for the most part tend to be on the basic side especially animal scenes. They had to be cut fast and there was no time to put too much detail in an animal which is why they mostly looked like cartoons rather than lifelike renditions.


Tim, I think that might be said of the lower grades (I'm talking Parkers here) but more to the point, specific engravers had their own style of engraving and executed their own rendition of birds, dogs, and (ugh) elk. On grades 2, 3, 4, and 5 a certain engraver might render beautiful depictions of setters and pointers while another engraver working on the same grades makes these same animals look like 'smoos'.
Yes, the engravers couldn't spend as much time on a Grade 3 as they would be expected to painstakingly spend on a Grade 6 or 7 so naturally the overall appearance of the engraving suffered a bit. But I think the biggest difference in the appearance of the birds and dogs, etc. was in the mind and hand of the engraver.

These examples are all different engraving periods by all different engravers. The renditions are their individual concepts of setters and they are all from Grade 3 and 1 grade 4 Parkers. (The first and second may have been done by the same hand)

Incidentally, only one of these guns is mine... No. 1



.

[Tim Wells]

Nice photos. One of the points I was trying to make but perhaps needed clarification is that I was mainly referring to modern engravings on old guns. At the time these were engraved it was well and good and perfectly acceptable for animal figures to be on the primitive side.

Nowadays no engraver I know of, and I know a bunch of them, would ever cut an animal like they did back when these guns were new unless the customer specifically asked for it to be that way. This year at the FEGA show in Vegas a customer wanted just that very thing from one of the best engravers in North America. This man is used to making lifelike game scenes but the customer wanted it to look like it was cut by the factory, probably a Winchester as I recall. So, it does come up once in a while.

I'd be proud to own any of those above. Pieces of our history, double barreled time machines of sorts.

[Tim Wells]

Can one of you educate me a little please? When I look at the photos of the original post I do see the Trojan marking on the rib. However, I was under the impression that the Trojan was only offered one way with the tell tale sharp angles at the forward lower ends of the frame and no rib extension or other frills.

This pictured gun has a rib extension and is rounded under the forward frame like all the higher grades and has those sculpted ridges on the fences. I thought Trojan was their field grade, no frills gun and all these features were part of higher grades. I'm new to Parkers so cut me some slack for my ignorance, just trying to learn here.

[Rick Losey]

Understand that this is a highly modified Trojan

Sculpted and engraved

[Bill Murphy]

The little rounded Trojan extension rib is not the same as the standard doll's head extension standard on higher grade hammerless Parkers. The rounded Trojan extension rib is characteristic of earlier models. The later models had no extension rib, nor did early exposed hammer Parkers.

[George M. Purtill]

Ok I am admittedly a guy that hates upgrades. I love this gun.

[Bill Murphy]

You are not alone. I love that gun and appreciate the understated round extension rib. The engraving is what I like, heavily carved and well executed.

[Brian Dudley]

Understand that this is a highly modified Trojan

Sculpted and engraved



Yes, the nicest one I have seen. Between a little bit of frame filing and what the engraver did, it looks like a sculpted graded frame. The only part on the gun that remains Trojan is the rib extension (at least as far as I can see since the forend is not shown). But I am sure an engraved could make it look like a dolls head was there when the gun is closed.

My only criticism of this gun is the checkering. It could have been much finer given what is being done with the rest of the gun.

[Bill Murphy]

One of our friends built a hammer gun with Trojan barrels and forend. He inletted a Deely latch from a graded Parker but left the Trojan forend mechanism intact. It is one neat hammer gun.

[Mike Franzen]

My only criticism of this gun is the checkering. It could have been much finer given what is being done with the rest of the gun.

Brian you have a trained eye for this kind of thing. Help me out. Other than some wear, what do you see in the checkering? To my untrained eye it looks amazing.

[calvin humburg]

Yes Mike, done well one does not trump the other.

[Brian Dudley]

Brian you have a trained eye for this kind of thing. Help me out. Other than some wear, what do you see in the checkering? To my untrained eye it looks amazing.



Way too course. Looks like 16 or 18 lines per inch. A gun of the grade that is trying to be replicated should have checkering of 28 lpi or higher. And finer checkering would not cause the checkering to "trump" the engraving. If anything, it will complement it. The courser checkering makes it stand out more.

[calvin humburg]

checkering vs. checkering not checkering vs. engraving. Maybe the guy orderded corse then it would be right no? Never new there were absolutes in Parker's.

[Brian Dudley]

Well the subject gun is not original. But a custom. There are general standards, set by the fine taste that original guns were built in. And in my opinion, guns built should emulate that.

Besides, you know what they say about opinions...

[calvin humburg]

Brian, don't b so hard on your opinion some may value it. I don't think the gun need critizied is all I was getting at. best ch

[Rich Anderson]

Rather than reshaping the Trojan frame wouldn't it have been a lot simpler to use a VH frame to start with?

[Bruce Day]

20ga

Why? Because Dick Washburn could. Now owned by a good friend who might have a few Parkers. He uses this for small bird hunting.


The gun was not intended for anyone else, not intended for resale, not intended for any purpose other than the personal satisfaction and use of a master gunsmith and engraver as an exercise of his abilities. Yes, it would have been easier if Mr Washburn had started with a V grade frame, but so what? Yes, it has the large checkering of a Trojan grade, but again so what? Besides, removing the coarser checkering and re-checkering with finer LPI would have brought the wood level to below the metal level, the fittings would have stood out, and maybe Mr Washburn did not want that. It was done because he wanted to.

As always, posters are invited to post photos of their own work in comparison and for discussion.

[Eric Eis]

The gun was not intended for anyone else, not intended for resale, not intended for any purpose other than the personal satisfaction and use of a master gunsmith and engraver as an exercise of his abilities. Yes, it would have been easier if Mr Washburn had started with a V grade frame, but so what? Yes, it has the large checkering of a Trojan grade, but again so what? Besides, removing the coarser checkering and re-checkering with finer LPI would have brought the wood level to below the metal level, the fittings would have stood out, and maybe Mr Washburn did not want that. It was done because he wanted to.

As always, posters are invited to post photos of their own work in comparison and for discussion.

And maybe Mr Washburn wanted to hunt with the gun and wanted courser checkering for grip in the field. It's a custom gun ! So it's only up to him what he wants not what others feel should have been done. It was "his" gun.....

[chris dawe]

From Bruce ..."The gun was not intended for anyone else, not intended for resale, not intended for any purpose other than the personal satisfaction and use of a master gunsmith and engraver as an exercise of his abilities."

You said it all right there ,we all know what the gun is and what it isn't ,there was no secret as to its origin ,no question as to the skill that created it and who it was created for .

Thank you once again for sharing Bruce

[Mike Franzen]

As always, posters are invited to post photos of their own work in comparison and for discussion.
Very few have anything comparable. Thanks again Bruce for bringing this and so many other fine Parker's to light.

[Bruce Day]

Ttt because people have asked for photos of this old Trojan.


A couple of us are out on the southern plains quail hunting for a week. We needed a safe place so we have our cuddle puppies and we plan to be in the stockmans and oilmans bar tonight for milk cookies and whisky. I'll ask the boys hanging on the rail if this is a safe zone like I've heard about on the TV.

Quail, bird dogs, double shot guns and red dirt. Doesn't get much better.

[Mike Franzen]

I hope the Trojans owner won't mind me putting this pic up. It is truly an amazing work of art and is deadly on flyers. IMHO it's the coolest Parker I've ever seen and what makes it so is it's out there doing what it was made to do and not just sitting hidden away in a safe. I like this pic because I can see the details of painstaking labor.

[Dean Romig]

Very nice Mike but that's just a tease.

Please try to get permission to show us the rest of that gun.





.

[Mike Franzen]

It's the same gun this thread was started on. I just focused in on the engraving.

[Dean Romig]

I see now.

[RONALD SHOOK]

I too have a heavily engraved Trojan. A gunsmith said it was probably an apprentice engraver's exam submittal for him to be certified. It has silver inlays as well as the engraving. The stock is plain except for checkering and, because of the lack of excessive drop and the finer LPI checkering, I think it is a replacement. I have tried to attach photos93724

93725

93726

93727.

[Bill Murphy]

An interesting engraved Trojan is the Steve Olin Trojan. I won't comment on it until someone posts pictures of it. They shouldn't be hard to locate on this great internet. I brought up old discussion of Olin's Trojan on the "General Discussion" subforum, pictures included. Enjoy.

[Bill Murphy]

Washburn's tapering of the front of the receiver is a touch that I haven't seen before. I like it a lot.

[Stan Hillis]

Ttt because people have asked for photos of this old Trojan.


A couple of us are out on the southern plains quail hunting for a week. We needed a safe place so we have our cuddle puppies and we plan to be in the stockmans and oilmans bar tonight for milk cookies and whisky. I'll ask the boys hanging on the rail if this is a safe zone like I've heard about on the TV.

Quail, bird dogs, double shot guns and red dirt. Doesn't get much better.

There's no shortage of red dirt here in GA too, Bruce.

SRH

[Troy Beedle]

I am new here to the Parker forum... Inherited a 1926 Engraved 20 Gauge Trojan 16 years ago and started this journey then, and frustratingly quit shortly after. I did see two different appraiser's that were highly recommended at the time and both gave me similar info about the engravings and neither could really comprehend why on the Trojan. I put it in the safe and gonna start down this road again, and any help and or information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you and I hope you have a Great Day!

[RONALD SHOOK]

I am new here to the Parker forum... Inherited a 1926 Engraved 20 Gauge Trojan 16 years ago and started this journey then, and frustratingly quit shortly after. I did see two different appraiser's that were highly recommended at the time and both gave me similar info about the engravings and neither could really comprehend why on the Trojan. I put it in the safe and gonna start down this road again, and any help and or information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you and I hope you have a Great Day!
I wish mine had nicer wood. If I knew the value of the gun I might invest in upgraded wood but it would be expensive. Since my wood is plain, and looks original, I think my gun was engraved after it left the factory.
Thanks,
Ron Shook

[Brian Dudley]

They did it because they wanted to. Or they engraved it themselves because it is what they had around and again, wanted to do it. As far as value, it is what it is. It is not worth any more because of the engraving. And it is worth less than a decent condition gun of the same grade/gauge would be because of it. The work is overall on the amateur side by way of quality. It is not like people would be fighting over it if it were for sale.
It has the most value to you, who inherited the gun from someone who cared enough to leave it to you.

[Troy Beedle]

I wish mine had nicer wood. If I knew the value of the gun I might invest in upgraded wood but it would be expensive. Since my wood is plain, and looks original, I think my gun was engraved after it left the factory.
Thanks,
Ron Shook

Thank you for the reply Ron. This gun was dropped and a small piece is missing from the stock and was lost. I would also be interested in replacing & or having repaired. I have no idea on price or even a actual value of the gun to see if worth investment.

Thank you,
Troy

[Troy Beedle]

They did it because they wanted to. Or they engraved it themselves because it is what they had around and again, wanted to do it. As far as value, it is what it is. It is not worth any more because of the engraving. And it is worth less than a decent condition gun of the same grade/gauge would be because of it. The work is overall on the amateur side by way of quality. It is not like people would be fighting over it if it were for sale.
It has the most value to you, who inherited the gun from someone who cared enough to leave it to you.

Thank you for the reply, Brian. I think what threw me off early on and having no knowledge with these guns, was the engravings not adding to but possibly taking away from the value. Also, at the time felt like it must of been done at the factory and again this was just based on me just not knowing any better. Here are a few more pics which led me in my thinking at the time, with Parker name and serial number.

Thankyou Troy

[Randy G Roberts]

There are surviving records for your gun. Join the PGCA and order a research letter. Who knows what you might learn about your gun.

[Joseph Sheerin]

I am not normally into the very ornate guns... But, this trojan is spectacular, thanks for sharing it.

[allen newell]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and in the case in particular, the owner. If it's beautiful in his or her eyes, that's all the matters. Who cares anyway. It's the owners choice. Enjoy it. It's beautiful

[Jerry Harlow]

Thank you for the reply Ron. This gun was dropped and a small piece is missing from the stock and was lost. I would also be interested in replacing & or having repaired. I have no idea on price or even a actual value of the gun to see if worth investment.

Thank you,
Troy

An easy and pretty inexpensive repair for a good stock man. It will still be visible, but will not look bad as they should match the walnut and finish.

[Troy Beedle]

Thank you to all for the nice comments, direction & help! Going to join PGCA & order the research letter and seek out a good stock man.

Thank you again and hope y'all have a Great Day! Troy