Damascus colors

[Brad Bachelder]

The age old name used for the process is "browning".The ultimate color is dependent on the use of live steam for conversion from brown to black. Steam converts brown ferric oxide color to ferro-ferric black. In all of the accounts that I have read about the "Parker browning process", the steam room was used for conversion. Live wet and dry steam is the best converter to accomplish the correct contrast and color for a black and white finish.
In time black and white will somewhat brown as ferric is more stable than ferro-ferric, but is still black and white.
It is my belief that all Parker composite barrels were finished in black and white.

Brad

[wayne goerres]

This may be a dumb question but what is live wet and dry steam.

[Brad Bachelder]

Wayne

Live steam is generated by a boiler. Wet or dry refers to the degree of humidity in a room or a cabinet. In the conversion step of the process the level of humidity and temperature are critical to convert without rusting. If the steam causes red rust, the humidity is too high or the temperature is too low. It is a delicate balance.

Brad

[wayne goerres]

Thank you for the explanation Brad. I would like to see this proses.

[Jeff Davis]

Brad- when you talk about the steam, is that during the rusting process or the conversion of the brown to black? I always saw this described as "boiling", and assume true barrels were placed in boiling water.

I will say that the look of those browned Damascus barrels in the thread about the G grade are pretty cool looking.

[Brad Bachelder]

Jeff

In finishing Damascus boiling is only done at the point of final contrast. This step is actually dying the black and fixing the color. The conversion from brown to black is very gradual. The brown color is only part of the recipe.
It is very easy accomplish basic contrast with heat and various rusting agents.The deep, bold contrast as done by the factories is much more complicated than simply applying a rusting agent and boiling.
Both Angier and Gaddy understood that composite barrels were finished to black and white.
I have had the opportunity to see countless high original condition Doubles. I have never seen any Double with composite barrels finished to brown or plum color by the makers.

Brad

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Brad, While photographing some guns this weekend I ran across a gun with Plain Steel barrels, it is a 4 digit ser number gun but these are not composite barrels they are steel barrels and they look blued or black . Are these early barrels made from rifle stock that was left over from the government contracts Parker had during the Civil War? I have not run across these barrels before! Looks like they would have to be blued rather than the damascus process, your thoughts please, Gary

[Brad Bachelder]

Gary

I have also seen early steel barrels, but only on three occasions. I have allways agreed with the account in the book. In refinishing they respond similar to Remington decarborized Steel. Very soft material.

Brad

[charlie cleveland]

i have 2 of these old guns marked plain steel one of these old guns is in fair shape i would say the barrels were blued..a dark blue almost black...charlie

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Brad here are photos I took this morning, not very good but you can see the unusual markings on the barrel flats along with the order number, Gary

[Brad Bachelder]

same markings on the ones I have encountered. The color was dark black with a satin patina. It would be interesting to know the exact composition of the steel and how they were made. I assume they were rolled the same way that Remington did it.

Brad

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

CHARLIE, Do your barrels look like these? and do they have the same markings? Gary

[charlie cleveland]

yes they are marked plain steel and the same color of blue or black as pictured..will have to get the guns out of tomb after awhile and see if they are same markings...charlie

[John Mazza]

Brad:

Are you saying that not even the English makers had a brown/white color to their composite barrels ? I know nothing compared to you, but I always heard that the English did brown/white, while here in the states we tended to do black/white.

I have an old J. D. Dougall that (under the fore end wood) has nice brown/white damascus. That part of the finish looks original. (...but it's had 139 years to oxidize.)

[Brad Bachelder]

John

As you know that question is a "hotbed" topic. I have worked on English guns my entire career. I have not researched English processes to the depth that I have American ones.
The English refinish their guns much more frequently than Americans, it is a part of their culture. The English never condemed Damascus as we did. They never stopped refinishing them.
I can only sight experience and observation. Every "London Best" original condition or factory refinished composite barreled Double that I have worked on, was finished black and white. I have observed brown and white in very early antique shotguns and rifles, but not in contemporary design composite barreled shotguns.
I believe that the English brown and white we see in vintage imports is a result of the way the refinishers did it, not the gunmakers.

Brad

[allen newell]

The new Purdey Damascus doubles are in Black and White as I saw in heir shop in June while in London.

[Drew Hause]

"Decarbonized Steel" or "Bessemer process homogenous wrought iron" was sourced by Parker Bros. from Remington Arms.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/295122617.jpg

Pages 503 & 504 of "The Parker Story" state that Parker changed the name to "Plain Steel" as Remington was using the name "Decarbonized" on their newly introduced Model 1873 & 1875/1876 Hammer Lifter doubles. 889 guns were made with Decarbonized Steel barrels.

1875 12g 0 Grade courtesy of Wally Shayer. 358 guns were made with "Plain Steel."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/268570027.jpg

From "Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880 U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office"
The earliest use of decarbonized steel or gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing company, of Chicopee, Massachusetts, as early as 1846. It is also stated that some time about 1848 Thomas Warner, a the Whitneyville works, incurred so much loss in the skelp-welding of iron barrels that he voluntarily substituted steel drilled barrels in his contract, making them of decarbonized steel, which was believed by him to be a novel expedient. The use of soft cast-steel was begun at Harper's Ferry about 1849. After 1873, all small-arms barrels turned out at the national armory at Springfield were made of decarbonized steel(a barrel of which will endure twice as heavy a charge as a wrought-iron barrel), Bessemer steel being used until 1878, and afterward Siemens-Martin steel.

[Dave Suponski]

Drew, Parker Bros did use the barrel legend of "Decarbonized Steel". Was this with the permission of Remington?

[Drew Hause]

Yes Dave, until Remington objected. Details should be in TPS.

1872 "Decarbonized Steel"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/325553100.jpg

1874 "Plain Steel"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/19406549/325553098.jpg

[Dave Suponski]

Thanks Drew..:)

[charlie cleveland]

i was told it was not safe to shoot the plain steel barrels..for a while i did not shoot the barrels so marked..but i did finally shoot the gun it stood the test and i have 2 guns now that are marked plain steel one a 10 ga the other a 12 ga..both guns shoot good..i seen another gun on gunbroker a few weeks back and it was marked plain steel..so most of these old guns s must have survived maybe the barrels are stronger than a lot of folks think...charlie

[Drew Hause]

Charlie: I may have given that advice and it turns out I was wrong. Don't want to give away too much since an article is forthcoming but Bessemer/Plain Steel is stronger than Damascus, which averages 54,000 psi on actual tensile testing:
Siemens (Open Hearth): 58,000 - 62,700 psi
Bessemer or Decarbonized Steel: 63,000 psi.
AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel: 64,000 psi
Whitworth's Fluid-compressed Steel: 66,000 - 67,200 psi
Marlin Model 1898 Slide Action Shotgun “Special Rolled Steel”: 66,000 psi

That of course is not to say YOUR barrels are safe, and should only be used with loads for which they were originally intended after careful measurements of wall thickness.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Now that is interesting , will look forward to your article! Gary

[Bob Brown]

John, if you want to read up on the British browning process W.W. Greener's book, The Gun, has a good explanation of the different methods he used with his composite barrels. It is on pages 279, 280, and 281. It appears he used browning, black/white, brown dark enough to hide the figure, and various points between depending on the gun and its purpose. It was first published in 1881, so it should be accurate at least for Greener's guns.

[Erick Hodge]

Moved to Private message.

[Jean-Paul Lavalleye]

Brad - how much metal is removed from Bernard damascus barrels when they are re-finished? The barrels in question have stains.

[Brian Dudley]

Brad will likely confirm this, but if there is no pitting or damage on your barrel needing to be worked out, the amount of material removed in regular prep of the barrel set is near insignificant.

Some may be suprised as to how little is removed when draw filing out pitting for that matter.