Barrel Analysis

[Drew Hause]

It's been 9 yrs. since there was a call on the DoubleGunBBS and here "Contribute Junk To Advance Barrel Strength Knowledge" with the hope of obtaining vintage barrel samples for composition and strength testing.
The following was posted by ‘Zircon’ in 2007. Unfortunately, the testing effort apparently ended thereafter.

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-55364.html

Many here have seen this thread on DoubleGunBBS
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=355898&page=1

I will have said barrels next week, and have a commercial metal testing lab nearby that utilizes scanning electron microscope (SEM) for fracture surface examination and high resolution microstructural examination, and energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDX) for chemical identification and composition analysis. They also do MagnaFlux/PD testing. I will discuss options with an engineer next week.
http://metl.com/services/

SO ONCE AGAIN, if you have a segment of pattern welded barrel, I would like to start with EDX for composition analysis, and would very much like to compare low grade Belgian Twist, mid-grade Damascus (the Remington A grade), and a high grade (?Parker Bern4, D4 or D6) barrel.

There appears to be some sort of 'Curse of the Mummy' associated with these efforts, as calamities seem to befall whoever wants to do the testing, but I've never been accused of good sense :p

Please e-mail me at revdoc2@cox.net if you'd like to send a chunk of barrel and thanks!

[Dave Suponski]

Dr.Drew, Not to worry. The curse has been broken. I have recieved the results of Parker Bros. fluid steel barrels samples. They include Trojan, Vulcan,Titanic and Parker Steel. Stay tuned for an article in a future issue of Parker Pages. Very interesting results and that is all i'm going to say....for now.

[Drew Hause]

The actual analytical process? Which one is Dave? :rotf:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1373/6511424/17126410/408682425.jpg

[scott kittredge]

Dr.Drew, Not to worry. The curse has been broken. I have recieved the results of Parker Bros. fluid steel barrels samples. They include Trojan, Vulcan,Titanic and Parker Steel. Stay tuned for an article in a future issue of Parker Pages. Very interesting results and that is all i'm going to say....for now.

come on, sing!! :corn:

[Dave Suponski]

Nope....:whistle:

[wayne goerres]

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Rick Losey]

for those who have not been following Drew's very interesting set of discussions on double gun relating to a recent barrel failure (and thanks Drew for all the effort there)

i found today's comments by Drew on page 9 of the part 2 (now up to 3 parts) to be very interesting.

it is the 6th post on page 9

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=356377&page=9

[charlie cleveland]

from what i read on this report seems damascus is as stout or may be stouter than vulcan steel..i am looking forward to you fellows findings...charlie

[Richard B. Hoover]

Drew,

I am delighted to see you are finally getting this important work done. Sorry I was not able to help years ago, but the equipment was always unavailable when I was in the country and tried to get time.

Yours,

Richard

[Dave Suponski]

Richard, Dr. Drew is doing important work with damascus barrels. I have finally been able to procur Parker Bros. fluid steel barrel sample from some very generous PGCA members and the testing has been completed. The results will be published in an upcoming issue of Parker Pages along with possibly a companion article in the Double Gun Journal. Great to hear from you here! Best as always,Dave....

[Drew Hause]

Dave: will your evaluations include tensile strength testing? Composition analysis?
Please include a summary here on the Forum after the articles are published so your findings will be available to internet searchers.

[Dave Suponski]

Drew, My main thrust of the study is barrel composition. This has been a nagging question for me for years. Did Parker Bros. actually use different steel's in their barrel tubes or was it just a marketing ploy?

[Eldon Goddard]

Drew, If I could get started on my work it should give us ultimate tensile strength, Elastic modulus, and yield strength. I could give more details on the test that I am planning if you want ill email you. Do not want to get any ones hopes up though as I do not think this will happen anytime soon. You do not go to school for 8 years without having a lot of debts but it is on the top of my list of projects. I believe it will be at least a couple thousand dollars of my own money and that is with a lot of generous people donating me test equipment.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Richard, Dr. Drew is doing important work with damascus barrels. I have finally been able to procur Parker Bros. fluid steel barrel sample from some very generous PGCA members and the testing has been completed. The results will be published in an upcoming issue of Parker Pages along with possibly a companion article in the Double Gun Journal. Great to hear from you here! Best as always,Dave....

Thanks, Dave.

I have just bought a new 11-gauge Parker. It has Stub twist Damascus Barrels and I wanted to chat about the Stub Twist from a metallurgy point of view. I am wondering if the continual pounding on stone of the horseshoe nails and the Carriage Spring steel used in Stub Twist made the barrels stronger than Plain Twist. I hope Drew had some Stub Twist barrels in his study. also does anyone know the lowest and highest serial number for Aston Twist Parker barrels?

Yours,

Richard

[Drew Hause]

This might help Richard

Greener on Stub Twist in The Gun, or a Treatise on the Various Descriptions of Small Fire-Arms , 1835
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIEY4qL6_z0C
Stub-Twist Iron - Made from a 1:1 ratio of horse-nail stubs (iron) mixed with chopped coach spring steel, fused ("puddled") into a "bloom of iron", then hammer forged or rolled into a rod NOT twisted, which was then wrapped around a mandrel and hammer welded.

Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering
D. Appleton and Company 1873
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ
Gun Barrels
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA936&dq

It need hardly be remarked, that the advantage to be derived from the use of horse-shoe nails does not arise from any virtue in the horse's hoof, as some have imagined, but simply because good iron is, or ought to be, originally employed for the purpose, otherwise the nails will not drive into the hoof; and the iron, being worked much more, is freed from its impurities, which can only be effected by repeated workings.
For the finest description of barrels, a certain proportion of scrap steel, such as broken coach-springs, is cut into pieces and mixed with the iron by the operation called puddling, by which the steel loses a considerable portion of its carbon, and is converted into mild steel, uniting readily with the iron, and greatly increasing the variegation and beauty of the twist.

Several authors commented that horse-shoe stubs became increasingly difficult to obtain by the mid-1800s leading to more Plain Twist/Wire Twist/ Skelp (all the same stuff) and Laminated Steel barrels

More information here
http://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/document/d/1BdbWHfJmr2EyvzcPybid7pwlEliH6m9pr1LxMESM3W0/edit

[Drew Hause]

The Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle: Including Game and Wildfowl Guns, Sporting and Match Rifles, and Revolvers
John Henry Walsh (Editor of The Field) 1882
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ
“CONSTRUCTION OF THE GUN”
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLwUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA83,M1
THE BARRELS
Whatever may be the kind of gun about to be made, the first thing done is to forge the tube or tubes containing the charge. Formerly they were all made of plain iron, but for the last hundred years the barrels of all best guns have been constructed either of strips or twisted iron coiled spirally round a mandril, and welded together by heat, or of steel. At present the selection is from three kinds, viz., first, Damascus; second, laminated steel; and third, plain steel.
The chief difficulty in the present day is to obtain iron of sufficiently good quality to mix with the steel, whether for Damascus or laminated barrels. Formerly horseshoe stub nails were alone thought good enough; but of late years these have fallen off in quality, and are also insufficient for the supply of the increased demand for shot guns since the passing of the present game law. These stubs, generally mixed together with other "scraps," were welded together and forged into bars; but in the present day new iron is alone used, selecting the best quality in the market, and refining it by melting and puddling, after which it is submitted to the tilt hammer, by which its fibres are condensed and drawn out.

[Erick Dorr]

Richard, I have questions regarding "Aston Twist Parker barrels." I am not familiar "Aston Twist" How are such Parker barrels marked on the top rib and on the barrel flats if they are marked? Is this twist distinctive in appearance from other twist barrels? Do the surviving Parker records distinctly reference "Aston Twist" and have any letters documented same?
Thank-you for any information you can provide.
Erick

[Drew Hause]

An update
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=357105&page=8

[Eldon Goddard]

The results seem to me to be the same that Zircon posted and I discussed with him. Drew glad to see some one putting in the hard work.

[Drew Hause]

Eldon: One important difference is that Bell's blown up barrels were subjected to sequentially greater pressures until failure, and DID show low cycle fatigue. The blow out being investigated now was a single over-pressure event, and low cycle fatigue was NOT seen. This is important in that it has been claimed that all Damascus eventually fails from internal rusting and weld failure (NOT seen) and low cycle fatigue.

[Eldon Goddard]

Yes that is true. I was thinking about the failure at weld lines. But I should have read more closely before saying that.

[Drew Hause]

Some here have no doubt been following the thread on DoubleGun, but here is the short version of the Metallographic Analysis from METL, and my conclusions:

I believe the burst was caused by an obstruction, likely the shot wad from the previous shell, lodged in and just past the forcing cone, caused by a light powder drop in reloading and incomplete ignition from the very low temperature. There may have been a pre-existing bulge also.

1. Did the barrel fail related to low cycle fatigue? NO

The fracture surface exhibited a mixture of ductile overload (plastic deformation with both tensile overload and shear) and transgranular cleavage indicating a ductal failure mode with rapid failure. The cleavage failure appeared to form preferentially in the iron component. No evidence of fatigue failure was observed; there were no striations on the fracture surface.

2. Did the barrel fracture at a ribband edge weld, between iron and steel rod welds, or within a rod? NO

The fracture did not appear to trace along the ribband (spiral) welds. Some cracking was seen along the individual bands within the crolle pattern, but this was not always the case.

3. Did the barrel burst related to interlaminar rust, inclusions, voids, or embrittlement? NO

No evidence of embrittlement was observed. There were a large number of inclusions but there was no apparent fracture jumping from one inclusion to another. The composition of the inclusions was predominantly silicon, phosphorus, and sulfur ie. slag.
No voids or interlaminar rust were observed.

While the microstructure was banded, and the bands had different grain size, inclusion content, and inclusion form (globular in the iron and linear in the steel)... “the overall material appeared to be a single piece of metal...(without)...microstructural defects.”

Chemical composition was similar to AISI 1005 low alloy steel. The low range of tensile strength is 40,000 psi, but may be heat treated to much higher numbers.


METL now has 17 barrel segments (14 pattern welded and 3 fluid steel) for tensile strength testing, and the Hunter Arms Armor steel section will also have composition analysis so we'll KNOW what at least one c. 1900 tube was made of, and can compare it to the barrels in Dave's study.

[Dave Suponski]

Thank You Drew,Very interesting reading. My article was sent off to Dean today for publishing in the next Parker Pages.

[Brian Dudley]

This goes along with the topic of this thread as well as another article in the Parker Pages a few issues ago about barrel steels in Parker barrels.

I just came into this set of 2 frame 12g barrels that are NOS, unchambered and 32" in length. No serial number length. They have bottom ribs, loop, spacers and keels in place, but no top rib installed yet. The barrel flat has the blank circle on it as discussed in that PP article. Letter was stamped in on e the grade of gun was determined.

34457

These barrels are going to go on a check-hook lifter frame I have to upgrade into an A or AA grade.

[Drew Hause]

Dean was kind enough to send me the Summer Parker Pages with Dave's Composition Analysis study. It is probably important to date the barrels as composition very likely changed following the advancements during and after WWI. It can be said with some degree of confidence that at least turn-of-the-century Hunter Arms rough forged fluid steel tubes were from a different Belgian source.

Any misunderstanding as to the Belgian source of pre-WWI tubes should be resolved by the following:
Hearings, Vol. 14, United States 60th Congress 2nd Session, November, 1908.
We further request that shotguns barrels in single tubes forged rough bored…be continued on the free list as at present, because their manufacture or production can not be economically undertaken in this country.
Hunters Arms co., Fulton, N.Y., Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca N.Y., Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn., Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N.Y., J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass., N.R. Davis & Son, Assonet, Mass., Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N.Y.

A single 1898 L.C. Smith Armour Steel tube was evaluated by optical emission spectroscopy (OES): Carbon content 0.47 weight percent is comparable to AISI 1045 Plain Carbon Steel, but with slightly higher sulfur (.075) and phosphorus (.112) content similar to AISI 1211 rephosphorized and resulfurized steel.

For comparison, a Russian source reported Krupp Fluss Stahl as having:
0.45% Carbon
Up to 0.035% Phosphorus
Up to 0.035% Sulphur

Published tensile strength for 1045 is 80,000 – 90,000 psi.
Published tensile strength for 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel is 64,000 psi.
Measured tensile strength of this Armour sample was 101,000 psi.
Anxious to see Eldon's tensile strength results of the samples in the future.

I'm still hoping to evaluate samples of the other Hunter Arms named steels, and also the Armory Steel used by Meriden Fire Arms and Crescent, and will report back.

[Steve McCarty]

I have only shot my GH damascus gun a few times and with RST shells. Since it is F&F I have not found too many reasons to shoot it. I shoot a Parker SBT at trap, it has a Titanic barrel. My other damascus gun is a 1900 L.C. Smith O grade. It's bored IC and Mod. I've shot it at skeet with RST shells and regular Win, and RIO trap loads.

My two damascus guns have very nice barrels. The bore of the Elsie is a bit rough, and the Parker GH bore is like new. I think it has been honed.

Think about it. How many damascus guns have you heard about letting go lately? How about none. We do, from time to time hear about shotgun barrels exploding, but it is usually modern liquid steel barrels who blew do to an obstruction.

Moral of the story? I'm going to shoot my Parker and Elsie damascus barreled guns with confidence. I don't think I'll put Mag or high base shells in them. I have other old guns that'll handle higher power loads. A Fox Sterlingworth for one...Also an ancient Browing Auto 5.

[Drew Hause]

Still hoping to accumulate more pre-WWI fluid steel samples for tensile strength testing and composition analysis.

More information:

The Sampling and Chemical Analysis of Iron and Steel, 1915
By Oswald Bauer, Eugen Deiss, William Thomas Hall
http://books.google.com/books?id=03w6AAAAMAAJ&dq
p. 96, 103 Basic Bessemer steel
Carbon 0.07 - 0.09%
Manganese 0.40 – 0.48%
Phosphorus 0.05 – 0.08%
Sulfur 0.05 - .07%

Remington “Decarbonized Steel” and Parker “Plain Steel” were Bessemer process steel, as was Winchester Standard Ordnance “Rolled Steel” and Marlin “Special Rolled Steel”. A 1925 Union Hardware & Metal Co., Los Angeles listing for the Crescent Empire No. 60 states “Decarbonized Steel” barrels. Crescent barrels were labeled "Armory Steel".

Walt Snyder graciously shared a 1919 Ithaca Gun Co. letter from A.P. Curtis, General Manager requested tensile strength testing on a section “cut from a barrel made in Belgium” to be performed by E.J. Stormer of Racine, Wisconsin. The letter did not indicate if the barrels were “Smokeless Powder Steel” used on the Field grade, also commonly found with the ‘LLH’ mark of Laurent Lochet-Habran, “Fluid Steel” or “Nitro Steel” used on the No. 1 and No. 1 1/2, Cockerill Steel used on the No. 1 Special, or “Best Fluid Steel” and Krupp on higher grades.
Tensile strength was reported to be “about 70,000” psi.
Carbon .32%
Manganese .78%
Phosphorus .018%
Sulphur .033%
No chromium nor nickel

Winchester Nickel Steel from Bethlehem Steel Co. Jan. 1900
http://books.google.com/books?id=YzhUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA181&lpg
Carbon .50%
Phosphorous .026%
Manganese .77%
Sulphur .037%
Nickel 4.0%
Tensile Strength 106,900 psi

Nickel Steel in Halcomb Steel Co. “Catalogue and Hints on Steel”, 1913
Carbon .20% = tensile strength 82,000 psi
.30% = tensile strength 93,500 psi
.40% = tensile strength 94,000 psi
Manganese .50-.80%
Phosphorous and Sulfur – not over .04%
Nickel 3.25 – 3.75%

Modern AISI 4140 Chrome Moly Steel
Carbon .38 - .43%
Phosphorous .035%
Manganese .75 – 1.0%
Sulphur .04%
Chromium .80 – 1.10%
Molybdenum .15 - .25%

Modern AISI 1018
Carbon .14 - .20%
Phosphorous Below .04%
Manganese .60 – .90%
Sulphur Below .05%

DAVE: with your permission I could add your 4 barrel results to the thread

[Dave Suponski]

Go right ahead Doc.

[Drew Hause]

Thank you Dave.


Sample of Parker barrels analyzed by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) and published in the Summer 2014 Parker Pages by Dave Suponski

Titanic Steel (likely pre-WWI)
Carbon .32%
Manganese .70%
Phosphorus .033%
Sulphur .077%
Nickel .078%
Chromium .031%
Molybdenum .003%

Trojan Steel (likely pre-WWI)
Carbon .35%
Manganese .84%
Phosphorus .03%
Sulphur .025%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .02%
Molybdenum .004%

Vulcan Steel
Carbon .27%
Manganese .68%
Phosphorus .062%
Sulphur .052%
Nickel .01%
Chromium .008%
Molybdenum .002%

Parker Steel (1926)
Carbon .09%
Manganese .83%
Phosphorus .094%
Sulphur .074%
Nickel .007%
Chromium .014%
Molybdenum .003%

[Drew Hause]

Tried to post a side by side comparison of all the steel samples for which I have results, but the format doesn't work. I have it as a Word Doc and would be happy to send by an e-mail attachment if someone would like it
drewhausemd@yahoo.com

1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel Brand "D"
0.5% Carbon
3.26% Chromium
0.16% Manganese
1.26% Nickel
0.04% Phosphorus
0.11% Silicon
0.03% Sulphur

Krupp Fluss Stahl :
0.45% Carbon
0.035% (up to) Phosphorus
0.70% Manganese
0.25% Silicon
0.035% (up to) Sulphur

Krupp Special (Spezial-Gewehr-Lauf-Stahl) patented 1896:
0.61% Carbon
0.04% Phosphorous
0.65% Manganese
0.04% Sulphur

[Bruce Day]

Thank you Dave.


Sample of Parker barrels analyzed by Optical Emission Spectroscopy (OES) and published in the Summer 2014 Parker Pages by Dave Suponski

Titanic Steel (likely pre-WWI)
Carbon .32%
Manganese .70%
Phosphorus .033%
Sulphur .077%
Nickel .078%
Chromium .031%
Molybdenum .003%

Trojan Steel (likely pre-WWI)
Carbon .35%
Manganese .84%
Phosphorus .03%
Sulphur .025%
Nickel .04%
Chromium .02%
Molybdenum .004%

Vulcan Steel
Carbon .27%
Manganese .68%
Phosphorus .062%
Sulphur .052%
Nickel .01%
Chromium .008%
Molybdenum .002%

Parker Steel (1926)
Carbon .09%
Manganese .83%
Phosphorus .094%
Sulphur .074%
Nickel .007%
Chromium .014%
Molybdenum .003%


So while there are the same components to all the Parker fluid steel barrels, they differ in amounts, they likely differ in heat treat values, and I have seen differences in grain structure which results in finishing differences. These steels were sourced from different suppliers.

We have posters who contend that all Parker fluid steels were the same and differ in name only, as a marketing ploy. I'm missing the reasoning.

[Drew Hause]

Certainly the higher concentration of Nickel and Chromium in the Titanic Steel are significant, and add to the manufacturing cost.

The very low carbon in the Parker Steel sample suggests it may be Bessemer process "Decarbonized Steel" or Parker "Plain Steel". A tensile strength test therof would be quite interesting.