Can't read the adobe thing to research a 16 PH

[Francis Morin]

I just acquired a 16 PH with 26 inch Twist barrels in VG condition- SN is 133556. When I tried to enter this data I get a pop-up blocker, so I don't know if this gun will be "lettered" or not- WK stamps all numbers match, barrels are uncut, no dents and bores shiny with no fouling- 3 lb. 8 oz. stamped weight with WK in oval- forearm iron only has sn- the outer latch is engraved PAT'D MAR. 26, 1878- water table right barrel side- PAT'D JAN 18 AUG 18 1887 May 7 Oct 8 1889 PAT'D AUG 15 1905- letter grade stamp is P (no number stamp - PH guns were grade No. 1, right?? then sn 133556- last three digits on bottom of trigger plate as seen from the lug opening, also on back edge of barrel lug, and it has the 12.5% pinned wear plate- 14.25 LOP to older spurred DHBP with engraved screw heads, pg with original cap and screw-- any info from the Brethern here would be appreciated- Thanks- FM:cool:

[Dave Suponski]

Francis,Gun number 133556 is not in the"Book" Sorry....:nono:

[Tim Sheldon]

Run, how did your pup hold point on a damascus 16ga? Last I knew you were a tried and true 12 gauge guy that didn't want anything to do with those, I think you called them lawyer loving barrels.

Did you bump your head? :)

Tim

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;11047]Francis,Gun number 133556 is not in the"Book" Sorry....:nono:[My favorite AL team has always been the Yankees- and old Casey "Der Perfesser" Stengel once said "Well, you can always look it up in the book somewhere"_ Not talking about Parkers I guess- any way to find out what the factory specs were when this PH was finished (1906? maybe) it has all the black and grey Twist/Damascus swirl pattern in the barrel tubes, beautiful flame walnut and the stock, grip and forearm checkering intact- may have had an over coat of finish- gold shield with no initials or nail heads evident- sweet little 16- my first--well, since my old 1897 Winnie back in HS- 16 gauge as I recall-:bigbye:

[Dave Suponski]

Well kid I think we can officially say that "You have been bitten"...:rolleyes:A damascus gun? And a sub gauge at that! What the hell is this world coming too.....Next thing ya know you will be anouncing that you are looking for a 20 gauge damascus gun to go with the twist gun...:rotf: And the slow spiral begins....

On a serious note....Order a letter if you want the original specs.

[Robin Lewis]

I put your ser# in the Research Letter page and it said:

The PGCA Serial Number Database indicates
that there are surviving Parker Factory records for your gun

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Robin Lewis;11051]I put your ser# in the Research Letter page and it said:

[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Sylfaen][SIZE=3]The PGCA Serial Number Database indicates
[B]that there are surviving Parker Factory records for your gun[/- Thanks Robin- I think I discovered the "gremlin" If I access the Forum in reply to my e-mails through the PGCA- I get the "pop-up blocker" on the other areas of the entire website- If I go to the top of the htt/www. thingy printout and enter the PGCA forums- then the pop-ups don't pop-up so often--
I will also try to get digital computered fotos of this, as I went to your first rate Grades listings and I didn't see a Grade 1 (PH) with the Twist Damascus tubes with the sworls and black and grey pattern as on this gun- may also try a montage with some pheasant tail feathers and my gunning bag and see if it garners any votes for the Parker of the Month- down the road-

I shoot my shotguns way far better than I do fotos or punch in data on this Dell (E inverted 90% off top dead center- why?) keyboard gizmo--:duck:

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Tim Sheldon;11048]Run, how did your pup hold point on a damascus 16ga? Last I knew you were a tried and true 12 gauge guy that didn't want anything to do with those, I think you called them lawyer loving barrels.

Did you bump your head? :)

Tim[- As a matter of fact Tim, I did- last week taking my Grandgal (age 4) Sophia Anastasia- down the old snow crusted hill on a 80 year old toboggan- we hit a "speed bump" and went airborne- it cracked the toboggan a bit, I was wearing my insulated Carhartt's bib pants and heavy coat with hood, plus a wool watch cap- I pulled her into my bulk to cushion her, and ended up with a small goose egg on the "olde dome"- she was unhurt, but of course, a little shaken up at first- later, she wanted to do it again- but as Clint Eastwood once said "Man oughta know his limitations"--

My lab Khartoum is a flusher- great retriever on ducks and geese, but at age three, likes to chase the "Ditch Parrots" a bit- but I hunted last Sat. at our Club on the after lunch pick-up with two Yellow Labs- pointing variety- wow, nice close working, solid on retrive, great noses and bird sense. Khartoum is a one man dog- and I am that one man- if I were to hunt him with another Lab he would sulk and shut down- hope he'll grow outta that some day-soon

I may have called the Damascus/Twist tubes "lawyer traps" after my Mike McIntosh 101 reading, but having attended a few Clays shoots with the "brethern" and learned from them a bit of the ins and outs of that, I went for the PH- what a sweetheart- perfect balance, for a lower grade Parker for that era (1906?) what a nice piece of well flamed walnut and the fit of the stock shield and the black DHBP-- like a Irish redhead with green eyes in Tommy Doyle's near closing time- I let my heart over-run my normal reticence to invest in anything but either a 12 or a std (NOT 3.5") 10 bore-:cool::rolleyes:

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Dave Suponski;11050]Well kid I think we can officially say that "You have been bitten"...:rolleyes:A damascus gun? And a sub gauge at that! What the hell is this world coming too.....Next thing ya know you will be anouncing that you are looking for a 20 gauge damascus gun to go with the twist gun...:rotf: And the slow spiral begins....

On a serious note....Order a letter if you want the original specs. My next "step into the abyss" would be a 20 Hammer parker with 28 or 30" Bernard barrels and the serpentine or "fish-tailed" top lever and the stock shield behind it at the top tang area- and a Skeleton Steel BP-Hey, a guiy can dream, can't he--??:bigbye:

[Tim Sheldon]

Francis, welcome to the dark side! Enjoy that little bugger.

Tim

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Tim Sheldon;11069]Francis, welcome to the dark side! Enjoy that little bugger.

Tim[- looks like I'll have to order some RST 2.5" lite loads for it-Most likely will have Brad B. check it over first- no dents or dings or pits in the barrels, gun is on face- wonder about when Parker dropped the PH (PHE) Grade, and if what I read about that grade is true-that more P grades had Twist/damascus barrels than Parker Steel barrels?:cool:

[Kurt Densmore]

Congrats on a nice little 16......I am assuming it is an 0 frame in the 6lb range.... Bring it to the Lapeer shoot this spring so a few of us can see it. I will probably shoot a couple of hammer guns and if I get around to loading up some 16ga black powder I may even make a go of the Black Powder portion of the shoot. If you run across a similar GH give me a shout.

Oh.....you have to turn off your pop up blocker to use the database search.

BTW I was the guy with the big lifter at Bachelder's a few weeks ago. I can't remember if I introduced myself.
Kurt

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Kurt Densmore;11073]Congrats on a nice little 16......I am assuming it is an 0 frame in the 6lb range.... Bring it to the Lapeer shoot this spring so a few of us can see it. I will probably shoot a couple of hammer guns and if I get around to loading up some 16ga black powder I may even make a go of the Black Powder portion of the shoot. If you run across a similar GH give me a shout.

Oh.....you have to turn off your pop up blocker to use the database search.

BTW I was the guy with the big lifter at Bachelder's a few weeks ago. I can't remember if I introduced myself.
Kurt- No problem Kurt- great place to chat and "tire kick" and I was pretty sure that was you- Nice 10 bore too- I was at Brad's again today, getting my son-in-laws .270 BA Browning in for a stock repair by Brad- it split slightly at the grip when in the deer stand and apparently slipped. Brad has done similar repairs on .300 WB magnums and they have held, so the milder recoil of the .270 Win. should not be a problem--

FYI-and that of anyone else, I almost bought a 16 Trojan that is Brad's -not a client's consigned gun, but a store inventory gun they bought recently- 28" barrels, two triggers, mfg. 1929 and is the second version w/o the small doll's head extension- clean, never refinished- barrels uncut, ditto the stock, no marred screws, original black buttplate- No 1 frame of course- about 6 lbs. 8 oz. and choked mod. & full I believe.

I know we can't sell our Parkers here, but as I see other members mentioning Parkers offered on various auction sites on the forum, and Brad does sometimes list such guns as he has for sale, well anyway, I was very impressed with that 16 Trojan- almost bought it, but we went on a "recon" in GR and I stumbled into the PH 16- right place, right time, and thanks to the knowledge by osmossis I have gained about Twist/Damascus Parkers from the members here, I had that "go for it" feeling!

However, as I am still a "newbie", if I have inadvertenly broken the "NO guns for sale on the PGCA forum" site and this comment has to be pulled, I will understand. Apparently the NBD of the 16- if you add that of the 12 and the 20 bores together and divide that by two, leans a bit closer to the 20 than the 12- that PH with 26" barrels on the size O frame is sweet indeed-

Now if I were only 35 years younger (and a few lbs. lighter too) and had my old grouse haunts and my Setter- Molly Malone McGuire=-- and that PH- open bored and with light 7/8 oz. of No. 8's chilled- a nice dream for a Winter's night with a fire in the fireplace, a glass of good bourbon and branch and a Bogart movie on the Turner Network--life can be good!!:rolleyes:

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, Volume 1 of The Parker Story has a "Grades" section that gives the best extrapolated (I love that word) estimate of Parkers produced by grade, gauge, steel type, barrel length, you name it. It is the most fun section of the entire two volumes. Mr. Cote has some slightly imperfect sets of TPS for around $200, a bargain for sure. (Yup, just checked. Dan is selling the two volumes for $195, a hundred bucks under retail. Just call his 800 number.)

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Bill Murphy;11091]Francis, Volume 1 of The Parker Story has a "Grades" section that gives the best extrapolated (I love that word) estimate of Parkers produced by grade, gauge, steel type, barrel length, you name it. It is the most fun section of the entire two volumes. Mr. Cote has some slightly imperfect sets of TPS for around $200, a bargain for sure. (Yup, just checked. Dan is selling the two volumes for $195, a hundred bucks under retail. Just call his 800 number.)[- II just sent in the form and the check for $40.00 for a letter on this PH 16 bore. I don't know Mr. Cote- is he a dealer in books like Judith Bowman or Carol Gunnerman? When you say "slightly imperfect" for the aprox. $100 difference, what does that mean roughly?

I am also wondering if I should submit this PH by serial number to our Curator on the PGCA Pages- Josh Lowenstein- as it was made aprox 1906, and the last patent date on the water table is 1905- If that is the correct time frame for the 12.5% tool steel wear plate introduction- perhaps this may be one of the first PH grades (whether Twist or parker steel) to have that added improvement??

[John Dallas]

Dan Cote is the owner/editor of the Double Gun Journal

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=John Dallas;11102]Dan Cote is the owner/editor of the Double Gun Journal[- thanks for the clarification John- do you have either a phone number or a e-mail address for Mr. Cote? By the way, as you are a fly fisherman (I used to be- big-time) do you tie your own fly patterns? If so, and I still get Craig Matthews' Blue Ribbon Flies catalog- current one had an archival reprint from jack Gartside on all the various feather and plumage from same--

Last sat I got the "money bird" at our club Tower/Euro shoot- a honey buff rooster- head shot so both the flesh (I love pheasant on the table- best game bird goingIMO) and the plumage were "intact"- as compared to a few other of the 135 birds released that got "hammered a bit hard"- I carefully skinned it out, also kept both wings, the entire tail feather assembly and even the head with the white collar and the red eye patches- now it is dusted down with Borax, but once it is cured- if you would like some of this for tying, advise and I will see that you receive some later-:bigbye:

[John Dallas]

Double gun Journal - http://www.doublegunshop.com/doublegunjournal.htm.

Gartside passsed away about two-three months ago.

Thanks for the offer of the feathers, - yes I tie all my own ammo, but I have more pheasant than I can use at the present time.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

I find it odd that over on DoubleGunShop our buddy Francis has bad mouthed a guys price on a Smith 16 gauge for about a week and called it "the bastard gauge" but on here he's bought one. You are a strange one ol' boy......

DLH

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Destry L. Hoffard;11125]I find it odd that over on DoubleGunShop our buddy Francis has bad mouthed a guys price on a Smith 16 gauge for about a week and called it "the bastard gauge" but on here he's bought one. You are a strange one ol' boy......

DLH[ With all due respect for the "Gentleman's Code" and our PGCA unwritten rule that repletes the 11th. Commandment "Thou shalt not speak ill of any brother PGCA member"-- let me say this Destry- You are comparing, in my opinion, elephants to eggplants here:

What is written on the PGCA Forum stays on the PGCA Forum- it has absolutely no bearing on any other website. We have links to the LC Smith and the AH Fox collectors websites through our PGCA site, but not to any of the auction/sale gun sites or Mr. Weber's DoubleGunShop site-

Why is this so? I do not know, as I am only one member here of nearly 1000, and certainly not a policy maker- But I will venture it is to avoid any ill-feeling about gun sales or, in the case you mentioned, a offering of a used Smith for sale. That is why I support 110% the PGCA BOD firm policy of NOT allowing that here, to avoid the potential for ill-feelings that can be engendered when someone tries the "barter/offer-counter/offer" technique.

Obviously, not everyone on the DoubleGunShop site agrees with that. That is their right, but let us be fair minded here: Do you always pay the asking price, whether at a gun show or elsewhere, for a used gun, whether a Parker or a Iver Johnson Champion, or do you sometimes make a counter offer.

I was looking to find the gentleman's "bottom line price" as I have a friend looking for a 16 or 20 Smith. Apparently I made a mistake in asking that sort of question on that other forum, one I will most assuredly NOT make again.

You are, without a doubt, one of the better wingshots I have shot with, albiet on both live pigeons and clays, not divers from a layout boat in a 35 knot wind--and you have first-class gun handling manners, as I would hope view my gun handling- But we are not friends or buddies, and I politely suggest for the good of this Forum we refrain from any further discussions, for the good of the PGCA.

[Destry L. Hoffard]

And yet again, methinks you protest too much.....

DLH

[Don Kaas]

Destry-Misquotes of Christ's Sermon on the Mount, Thomas Jefferson (a "Frog statesman") and (my personal favorite) bestowing a peerage on disgraced Irish nationalist Charles Parnell. It goes on and on. Some people use the Internet in a rather pathetic attempt to gain a strange kind of attention that they apparently desire but can not get in real life...People actually do fail open book tests..."F"

[Francis Morin]

[QUOTE=Don Kaas;11136]Destry-Misquotes of Christ's Sermon on the Mount, Thomas Jefferson (a "Frog statesman") and (my personal favorite) bestowing a peerage on disgraced Irish nationalist Charles Parnell. It goes on and on. Some people use the Internet in a rather pathetic attempt to gain a strange kind of attention that they apparently desire but can not get in real life...People actually do fail open book tests..."F"[- Thank you Mr. Kaas, I yield to your greater education indeed, as I barely graduated from High School, but fortunately inherited mechanical aptitude that helped me along in life, and not just in field-stripping M2-.50 MG or a Parker Trojan shotgun.

I am sure it was Robespierre who said "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to freely say it!" and for that famous utterance he died on the French guillotine aprox. 1794. He was the Frog stateman to whom I made reference on another website/forum other than here. Were I to have referred to Thomas Jefferson, I believe it would have been more accurate to refer to him as the WASP statesman, as were almost all of our great Founding fathers.

I won't discuss my reverence for Lord Parnell, that his how we view him, if you chose to view him otherwise and "de-peerage" him, that is your free choice, and there is no sense debating that.

I hope you and your friend Destry have good weather and a fine pigeon shoot this coming week-end. The late Nash Buckingham once shot at your club with the late Eltinge Warner I believe. I would have loved to have been there and see those "sky carp" being blown to feathery bits floating down the river with the solid hits from his famous "Bo-Whoop" Fox double. Stay well!!

[Bill Murphy]

And another of our generation joins the expanding group of influential citizens who chooses to use the acronym WASP in a derogatory manner. For the umteenth time, I apologize for my obvious WASPness.