Sherman Bell 10ga Reloading recipes in PDF format

[Pete Lester]

Attached is a PDF copy of the Sherman Bell 10ga reloading recipes that came to me as an Excel file. I converted the file to PDF for those who can't open an Excel file.

[Don Kaas]

Thank you Pete for posting this. I guess the original compiler didn't like Federal or Winchester hulls!...of which I have about a thousand of...

[E Robert Fabian]

I think maybe we could make Pete's post a sticky or at least the PDF file.

[Robert Rambler]

Don, Scroll or click down there's a total of 3 pages, includes Win. & Fed. hulls.

[Don Kaas]

Thanks...I'm an idiot..

[Pete Lester]

TTT.

[Mike Stahle]

This is great info. Is there one like this for 12 ga. ??

[Harry Collins]

Mike

The best low pressure manual for a 12 gauge is the IMR Powder manual. www.imrpowder.com there are many low pressure loads with 7625, PB, 4756 & 800X.

Harry

[Mike Stahle]

Thanks Harry,

I need to get up to speed on using smokeless.
I have an old hand roll crimper on the way and want to
try my hand at making some paper roll crimp shells.

[Harry Collins]

Mike,

It is work though very rewarding to have short rolled crimp shells. I have the old tools for 10 and 12 gauge. I keep hulls from .410 to 10 gauge with me so if I see an antique shop and find these old tools I will know what gauge I'm dealing with. There was a 16 gauge roll crimper on ebay a few months ago that I was out bid on. I have been finding these tools around here for about $10 to $15. Just not a 16 gauge or smaller.

Harry

[Mike Stahle]

What should I be looking for when it comes to
purchasing these old roll hand crimper's?
Is there one brand over another that is more sought after?
The one's that have the brass knob and rod as apart of the unit,
is that used for de-capping?

Thanks for any info. you can pass this way.

Mike :-))

[Harry Collins]

Mike,

If you find one buy it. I am not sophisticated enough to know the difference.

Harry

[Mark Landskov]

Pete, when you received Sherman's load data in Excel, were there any footnotes in regards to his use of asterisks, italics and boldface? I have the 2 back issues of the DGJ with his articles, but cannot find anything that would clue me in on his asterisks, etc.

[Mark Landskov]

Let's see if we can revive this thread! Has anyone tried Mr. Bell's loads? He really was adamant about pointing out the differences between the various hulls. Remington has a handful, as does Winchester. Interior construction of these different shells played a big part in ultimate load performance. I just bought a Baker hammer gun and am looking forward to putting my old 10 gauge loading tools to good use. Cheers!

[Harry Collins]

Mark,

I load the Federal hull cut down to 2 7/8" with SP 10 wad with Circle Fly 16 gauge over powder cards and cushion wads, WW 209 primers and IMR 7625 for 1 1/8 oz loads and IMR 4756 for 1 1/4 oz loads. I chose the Federal hull because I could find them. I am conscious of the paper base wad and check my barrels after each shot.

Harry

[Robert Rambler]

I use the same loads Harry mentioned. Shot them both days at Hausmann's in my EH. They recoil like a 12 ga,crush clays like an 8ga. At the "Tower" station they were good enough to break 6 high targets in a row, and could reach across the pond to catch the run away right to left.:)

[charlie cleveland]

nice gun but the crimps are really good on those shell espically the green roll crimp very nice........ charlie

[Mark Ouellette]

Mark,

I have notes pages in pdf format but they are too large to load. PM me with your email and I'll send them to you.

Mark

[Mark Landskov]

Harry, have you had problems with basewads actually coming loose from the hull? I would imagine that black powder is rough on the shells, but not smokeless. One of the hard basewads would make a dangerous obstruction.

[Harry Collins]

Mark,

I have never had a base wad detach. I'm just aware that one might. As far as the astricks and bold type in the PDF, it is my recollection that those were the loads mentioned in Sherman Bell's articles.

Harry

[charlie cleveland]

those base wads will come loose and lodge in the barrel...ive had several come loose espically in the 8 ga and 10 ga ...and these were from differant brands of shells and i was shooting smokless powder...best to lokk down the bore after each shot.... charlie

[Mark Landskov]

That is good advice, Charlie. I always look for daylight before I stick a shell in any of my guns. Thanks for pitching in with info, everybody. The Baker hasn't arrived yet and I am anxious to try loading some shells for it. It will be my first venture into shotshell loading. Cheers!

[charlie cleveland]

you will like reloading...its like looking at old guns it gets into the blood stream... charlie

[Harry Collins]

Mark,

Just a heads up to wiegh the powder charge before you fill the other hopper with shot. I have not found a bushing yet that throws the charge writen in the manuals. It's a lot easier to chanbe bushings without having to deal with the shot.

Harry

[Mark Landskov]

Harry, my outfit is not very sophisticated! I found a near-mint Lee hand tool for the 2-7/8" shell and will be using my new Hornady Lock and Load powder dispenser. The Hornady measure is a Godsend for all of my rifle loading. I have dippers for shot, also. Finally, I have a repaired 'roller' that does a swell job on paper and plastic hulls, should I decide to use a rolled crimp. It delivers a nice rounded roll-over. I have discovered with the pre-determined charge rotors for my RCBS Little Dandy that they fall short of their assigned charges of Unique by almost 1/2 grain. I did a lot of averaging and made notes about each rotor. I suppose volume charging is fine with less-than-maximum charges.

[Paul Harm]

Federal shells have a fiber base wad - these are the ones that can come loose and lodge in your barrel. Rem and Win don't have the fiber base wad [ to the best of my knowledge ] . There is no problem with them.
PSB - Precision Reloading's buffer material
BP - Ballistic Products buffer material
FBS - felt Blue Streak wad
NC - nitro card wad
MR - Mylat wrapper
x10x - over powder wad from Ballistic Products

notes on loads #18,68,and 69 - wad combo has a 10ga 1/4" wad and a 12ga 1/4" wad
#37 - 16 or 20ga card may be used ILO 24ga wad
hope this helps - Paul

[Paul Harm]

This is only what I do - any of these loads with plastic wads can be used with paper wads and I believe the pressures would be lower and safe. I go up 10% with the powder charge when substituting fiber wads for plastic. Use your own judgment. Paul

[Jerry Harlow]

I want to load some 1 3/8 oz loads for a 12 gauge that I will also use in a 10 gauge with gaugemates (so I only have to load up one gauge that can be used in both).

But I want a heavier load with low pressure, much as the 1 3/8 oz and 1 1/2 oz loads Bell has for 10 gauge that are in the 8000 psi or less range.

Thanks.

[Pete Lester]

I want to load some 1 3/8 oz loads for a 12 gauge that I will also use in a 10 gauge with gaugemates (so I only have to load up one gauge that can be used in both).

But I want a heavier load with low pressure, much as the 1 3/8 oz and 1 1/2 oz loads Bell has for 10 gauge that are in the 8000 psi or less range.

Thanks.

There is only one powder I know of that will deliver such results, Hodgdon Longshot. ex. below.

12ga, Federal Gold Medal Hull, Lead Shot 1 3/8 oz. Longshot 27.3gr Rem. 209P Primer, Rem. R12H Wad 7,700 PSI, 1185fps

[Paul Harm]

Harry, don't forget the 700X in 7/8oz loads. Don't like 4756 in the winter - punk loads for me. paul

[charlie cleveland]

i really dont have enough cold weather to judge what powder is good and not in cold weather so fellows what powder is the best for these low preesure loads in 10 ga... charlie

[Mark Landskov]

I use Clays for my one ounce loads. The coldest for me would be 24 degrees or so. Is that cold enough to affect certain types of powder? My hands won't tolerate anything beyond that temperature, so it may be a moot point for me. Cheers!

[Paul Harm]

The 700X works in Michigan winters - at times below zero. Paul

[John Campbell]

Jent:
"Verrry Interrresting" on the loose wads.... If you'd be so kind, what type of load do you use with this case, and about hot many reloads do you get before a wad is likely to come loose?

I assume you are firing these cartridges in a Parker double, and not a semi-auto or pump.

I use Federal plastic cases myself and have not noticed this problem.

Best, Kensal

[Bill Murphy]

The wad is never "likely" to come loose. It will come loose when you least expect it. It isn't something that happens often. Most hulls will never lose a base wad before being unloadable. Look down that barrel.

[Robert Rambler]

Jent, This is what I use on those bothersome Remington 10ga hulls with loose primers. After using it the first time on new hulls, primers still hold tight after several reloads. I use Win 209 primers. HTH, Robert.
Here is one place that sells them.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Primer-Pocket-Conditioner/productinfo/2301816/

[Paul Harm]

I've never had the problem with primers in the Remington hull - but that said, I live a couple of miles from Williams - have to ask about the tool next time I stop in. Didn't know they made one and I'm in there about twice a month and learn about it here. Paul

[John Campbell]

Jent, Mark, et al:
While I am not denying that base wads from Federal 10-bore cases could come loose, I am a bit baffled as to how they could migrate halfway down the barrel. Please understand that I am NOT a physicist nor an explosives engineer, but these questions persist in my mind:

1) When gunpowder ignites it creates a gas pressure that is equal in all directions. This is physics.

2) As the wad column and shot move forward, it allows the building gas pressure to move this ejecta down the barrel and out the muzzle.

3) As the ejecta travels within the barrel, there is STILL gas pressure pushing backward against the base wad/cartridge head. When the shot and wads leave the muzzle, this pressure drops to zero.

4) In this whole process, I cannot think of any force induced by firing the cartridge that would allow the basewad to move FORWARD and down the barrel.

In posing these thoughts, I'm just trying to understand why this phenomenon apparently happens. NOT that it doesn't happen. I know that Tom Armbrust posts here occasionally, so he may have an expert's explanation as to why this apparent redefinition of physics takes place. Or point out what force moves the base wad forward.

Best. Kensal

[Bill Murphy]

"It was a dark and stormy night...."

[David Holes]

I am guessing that the wad and shot create a vacuum when exiting barrel. This would pull the base wad forward. Dave

[John Campbell]

Holeshot:
Think of it... wad and shot are being propelled by positive gas pressure. When they exit the muzzle, there is no pressure. then the atmosphere wants to "neutralize" the pressure condition inside the barrel by rushing inward... could there ever be a vacuum between a pressure condition and a "neutral" condition?

Just thinking out loud. Possibly wrongly.

Best, Kensal

[John Dallas]

I think Jent has it right. Gas gets behind the base wad by going past the primer, As the shot charge goes down the barrel, the pressure drops, but there is still enough pressure trapped behind the base wad to move it into the barrel

[Mark Ouellette]

Jent's theory is as good as any and better than most!

Thanks Jent!

[charlie cleveland]

very interesting... hope we get to the bottom of this.... charlie

[Pete Lester]

Notes to go along with Sherman Bell loads spreadsheet.

[John Campbell]

Gentlemen:
As part of this thread, some posters made a rather strong point made about the base wads of Federal 10 Ga. plastic hulls coming loose upon firing and lodging halfway down the barrel -- obviously creating an obstruction.

These are the exact hulls I use in my old W & C Scott, so I decided to go beyond anecdotal evidence and pose the question directly to Federal. They have responded thus:


"From time to time we hear about the base wads of shotshells being "sucked out" of a hull and traveling down the barrel to obstruct the bore. In the past years we have shot millions of test shotshells in all gauges here at Federal Cartridge. We have never been able to duplicate or confirm that the base wad of a shotshell has become out to be an obstruction. While we may agree that it "could" happen the likelihood is so small that we believe it is not very probable. The only way that we believe that the base wad can get pushed into a barrel is for the primer o somehow get beneath the paper base wad, which would be extremely unlikely. We would also expect that in this unlikely event there would be an off sound and an incomplete ignition of the shotshell. We hope this information has been helpful.

Thanks
Federal"

This may, or may not, convince certain posters on this site. But it tends to put my mind at ease.

Best, Kensal

[John Mazza]

Jent: I agree with you. Federal isn't reloading the sin out if their shells to see how long they last... They only want to test the safety & performance of their product (brand new) - that's the only thing they will "warrant."

My bottom line summation is this: ALWAYS look down your barrels ! Blow out the smoke & be sure all's clear. (Heck, I even check my bores periodically while hunting - just to be sure I didn't jam snow, etc. in the muzzle.)

One can't be too safe...

Have a good weekend to everyone !

[Pete Lester]

I read Federal's response above, they did not say it could not happen, they said the likelyhood is so small making it improbable. Rare events do happen, black swans. I have no reason to doubt it happened to Jent. Perhaps the chance of this happening is along the lines of being struck by blue sky lightning, it happens to people. I think a good point has been made, it is a good idea to make a habit of checking your barrels between shots which is simple to do on a break action gun. Hard to do when speed is important, shooting crows for instance, but always a good idea.

Anybody remember the old Peters Blue Magic's in 12ga? After several reloads they would routinely break off above the brass head and the rest of the hull would get launched.

[charlie cleveland]

the base wads will come loose even in 8 ga winshester hulls after several reloadings.... charlie

[John Campbell]

Gentlemen:
Please consider this:
Any company who offers primed hulls and primers for sale to reloaders must accept liability for the safe use (repeated is implied) of those components. (and I know all about the disclaimer on the packaging) To assume that Federal only fired new ammunition in its tests fails to detect base wad dislodgment gives this fine company no credit for even basic legal intelligence.

Perhaps I should have included the text of my question to Federal so that their answer might be more fully understood. So here it is:


"Federal:
There is a rather anxious discussion on the Parker Collector's Forum about the base wads of reloaded Federal 10 Ga. hulls coming loose upon firing and traveling about halfway down the barrel of a double barrel shotgun to lodge and obstruct the bore.

At least two people say this happens with "target" loads.

I load your cases with VERY light 1 1/8 oz. target loads myself ( 21 grs of Clay Dot, BP Deci-Max wad and Win 209 primer) and have not had this problem. However, I am now concerned.

but I still cannot understand what kind of force would propel a base wad out of the case and down the barrel when the entire barrel has positive pressure until the shot and wads exit the muzzle.

Do you know of this problem with 10 Ga. base wads coming loose?

Do you know how it may happen?

One poster on the Parker Forum explained it this way:

"I have been told that this happens due to a poor gas seal in the primer pocket. The explanation went something like this, the shell is fired, the psi begins to build, the gas seal on the primer is not good, gas leaks by the primer, psi keeps building, higher and higher pressure is building down by the primer pocket BELOW the base wad, higher and higher and higher pressure builds, finally the primer pocket seals as the shell swells up and gets tight in the chamber and against the breech, high pressure is still everywhere in the barrel because the shot/wad has not flown out the muzzle yet and that high pressure is still down by the primer, which finally stopped leaking. Now the shot/wad flies out of the muzzle and the pressure in the barrel drops rapidly BUT there is still a little high pressure gas trapped below the base wad by the primer and the pressure wants to get out and get equalized so it pushes the base wad forward. It sounded like a good explanation to me."

I'd sure like to hear from the Federal experts on this because I rely on your 10 Ga. hulls for my shooting."

Under this circumstance, I don't think they misunderstood the issue.

While I do not doubt that some base wads may have come loose, the circumstances under which they did cannot scientifically be determined. Thus, they must remain suspect.

Best, Kensal