Hammer Guns

[Bruce Day]

xxxx

[Robin Lewis]

Bruce,

Are these your's? Nice display! Tell me about the 'C' grade(s). What ga., barrel info.... etc, I'm very much interested in learning more. I think C grade hammer guns are far and few between, I never see them.

Thanks
robin

[Dean Romig]

Bruce, please tell us about that Bernard gun.

[Larry Frey]

Bruce,

Are these your's? Nice display! Tell me about the 'C' grade(s). What ga., barrel info.... etc, I'm very much interested in learning more. I think C grade hammer guns are far and few between, I never see them.

Thanks
robin

Robin,
If you want to look at C grade hammer guns I think Puglisi has three or four of them on his website.

[Bruce Day]

I do not own any hammer guns, not yet anyway. These are owned by a friend who declines to post on the forum.

The C Bernard hammer is a particularly fine piece, 12ga, 30". There are some but not many out there and many are in 10ga. All original. True, Jack Puglisi has a couple available. I looked for one for close to a year, this one is the best one I know of, although a friend in SoCal who has come back to hunt with us has an absolutely outstanding 12ga C in four blade damascus that we found for him several years ago. He has carried it pheasant hunting in SoDak with us, a bit heavy for sure, but a wonderful gun.

[E Robert Fabian]

Bruce, could you tell me the grade of the gun in the fifth photo down from top? It has some interesting engraving, the circle of arrows around the pin.

[Bruce Day]

I believe that to be the $200 grade, as lifters were dollar graded. TPS p. 235. In letter grade equivalents, it would be a B grade. But somebody who really knows their lifters( not me) may be able to tell better.

$200 for a shotgun in the 1870's? When a person could buy a Winchester or Colt shotgun for what, $25? Must have been some sportsman. LtCol Custer went on a little jaunt to Montana in 1876, so it puts the date in context. Most of his troop used those clunky single shot trap door Springfields and a few used the brass framed Winchesters. This Parker is still a modern configuration, usable sporting arm and if a person has not manipulated the lifter mechanism, he is in for a treat. Too bad Custer did not see fit to restrict his visit to fly fishing on the nearby Big Horn River, as many sportsmen do now.

The ring of arrows is interesting, kind of like "punch here".

[Robin Lewis]

Bruce,

From my observations, I would have guessed that gun to be a C grade based on the look of the bolsters. On a $200 grade the "tear drop" (for lack of a better description) would have been a full length and gone almost to the barrels. 'C' grades were the transition grade for the "tear drop" because the 'D' didn't have it and the 'C' had a short one like the one in that picture and the 'B' and up had full length "tear drops".

Based on that alone I would guess the one above it is also a 'C'?

Robin

[Larry Frey]

Robin,
I think I must disagree with you regarding the long tear drops. From what I've learned from some of our more experienced members the longer tear drops as shown in the third photo were on the very early $250.00 guns. I could be wrong as I am no expert just relaying what I have been told. A few years ago I believe it was Chris Lien who posted a paper which had drawings of the bolster engravings of the various grades but I think they represented the later guns. I still have that drawing at home somewhere and will try to find and post it later.

[Bruce Day]

I've been told that its often difficult to tell between some of the dollar grades and a letter is usually very helpful, provided the price before discounts can be determined. I don't know that much about the dollar grades.

[Robin Lewis]

Larry,

I guess I wasn't explicit in my writing. My point was that from what I had seen the 'C' had the short tear drops and lower grades didn't have them at all. Grades higher than 'C' had the full tear drops. I look at $250 grade guns as the highest of graded guns which have the full tear drop. I don't know the $$$$ grade of the gun shown but I would have equated it to a 'C' based on the tear drops. What I don't know is what dollar value a 'C' would be; maybe $175?

When it comes to dollar grades I don't think we have a real solid recognition method. I have seen guns call $250 grade guns that have light engraving and wood that isn't exceptional. When I look at dollar lifters and they don't have tear drops I assume they are lower than $200 dollar grade, but that is just my thinking and I am probably wrong?

Maybe owners of dollar grade guns could post pictures and ID's to help understand the designation; do the guns have order records with the price listed too? I think the dollar range guns run from $50 - $300?

[E Robert Fabian]

I was hoping to get owners of Hammer guns to post some pictures under engraving with dollar grade or letter grade to better understand the different grades. I find them very interesting and see one in my future.

[Dean Romig]

Larry & Robin, how the dollar grade correlates with the later number (or letter) grades I am not especially sharp on - especially as Bruce mentions "before discounts" which were common - but as Robin points out, the grade 3 or D-grade had no 'teardrop', the grade 5 or B grade had a 3/4 length teardrop, the grade 6 or A grade had the full-length teardrop and the grade 4 or C grade had the shortest teardrop but, unlike the grade 3 (D), the C at least had the beginning of a teardrop.

[Larry Frey]

Robin,
I agree the dollar grades can be very confusing. I think the early (1870's) guns before the letter grading had much less engraving and the bolsters were somewhat less ornate. My 1878 under lifter 3251 has been called a $250.00 gun by some of our members who know far more than I yet it has much less engraving than some lower grade guns from just a few years later. I was told that there is not enough information to do a letter on these early guns which is too bad as that would end any speculation.

[Robin Lewis]

Here is a lifter 4558 found in stock book 1, that I believe to be a $250 grade. I'm not sure but I think it is. I have a letter on it and Ron Kirby couldn't grade it but said he was sure it was either a $250 or $200 grade based on the stock book notation of "extra bead".

It has a 6 stamp on the barrel flats but that it early for a grade stamp. Some think it indicates the Damascus is 6 blade but I posted it to our resident damascus expert and was told it wasn't 6 blade. So, I don't know what the 6 is?http://parkerguns.org/forums/C:%5CUsers%5Crobin%5CPictures%5CGuns%5C$250%5CPark er250-4%20001.jpg

[Robin Lewis]

Here is another dollar grade, 3306 found in stock book 1. Because of the light engraving I do not believe this to be a $250 grade but it does have the full tear drop (extra bead) so I guess its a $200 grade?

[Robin Lewis]

Those are all the pictures I have of dollar grade Parkers. I hope others will post some dollar grade pictures to add to this collection please?

[Larry Frey]

Ok I'm not sure how much this adds to the conversation but this is a copy of the drawing that was in a post 3/15/06 on the old site. I believe it was posted by Chris Lien and I think I recall him saying it came from Oscar Gaddy but I could be wrong. What I do remember is that these sketches were compiled from later hammer guns. I believe they are from after Parker went to the letter grading system.

[Dave Suponski]

Larry,That is a great sketch.Thanks for posting it!

Should we move some of these great pictures to the engraving catagory?

[E Robert Fabian]

I hope so Dave

Robin and Larry great photos. These guns I believe have allot more to offer in the engraving dept. as far as variation

[calvin humburg]

Gents,
I know what I would spend my money on if I was tiger woods. Man thoes are some sexy lifters..................ch MERRY CHRISTMAS 1st epistle john 1/ 7-10

[Bruce Day]

OK, OK, a few more. See the wood photo? Its a $250 dollar grade.

The hammer guns include a 16 lifter and the 20 top lever.

These were displayed at the last Pheasant Fest and will likely be shown again in Feb at Des Moines if people want to see them. The rack of guns is from the last PF.

[Austin W Hogan]

The 0 to 6 number grading system that is stamped on most exposed hammer frames was formalized sometime after s/n 10000. The engraving and checking patterns of those grades remained in flux until hammerless production began.
TSP initiated the term "Dollar Grade" to describe grades of guns prior to the first Parker catalogs. These "Dollar Grades" are based on price lists issued in the 1870's. The $250 grade was the highest on most of these lists, and a $60 or $80 grade usually lowest, but surcharges were added for pistol gips and ten gauge guns. The lists began with two damascus barreled guns at $ 250 and 200, and twist or gun iron grades at less than $100. A middle $135 damascus grade was added along way. There was at least on "reduced price list" that had the $200 grade as the highest grade.
More to follow

Best, Austin

[Bruce Day]

16ga. Note the downwardly angled thumb groove on the original stock.

[Bruce Day]

20ga

[Robin Lewis]

Here is a graded lifter gun, a 12 ga. 'C'

[Austin W Hogan]

The $135 grade had a three point bow tie pattern of fore end checking and a little engraving on the locks; it is relatively easy to follow the $135 grade evolution to the grade 2 and finally G. I suggested this as an interesting collecting niche in a DGJ article.
Larry's sketches show that frame sculpture around the breech defines the highest grades. The complex pattern he shows, with engraving in the recesses and on the high points should represent the highest grade. It appears though that engravers and price list publishers were not syncronized, and the most engraving may have appearred on $200 grades at times.
Larry also shows frame sculpture with no internal rib and no recess engraving. A photo of a 1000 range gun with this sculpture is attached. These guns also had the dog's head silhouette engraved on the frame that continued on 3 grade guns through the 15000 plus serial range We associate all this with later 3 grade guns; but there is no intermediate grade in the price lists of the time.
The guns above the $135 grade carried a multi diamond fore end checking pattern as shown. This pattern was initially necessitated by the cross slide attachement hardware, but continued through hammerless introduction.
High grade hammer, lock and frame sculpture and engraving continued to evolve throughout exposed hammer production. My own opinion is that this reached its pinnacle with the guns delivered to St Louis shown in the hammer article in Parker Pages.
When did the grade three evolve? It certainly existed but does not appear to have been cataloged. This again raises the question of collecting philosophy; should the archive regulate collectability or should it be the quality of the gun?

Merry Christmas;

Austin

[Robin Lewis]

Here is another graded lifter, a 12 ga 'G'

[Dave Fuller]

The guys who don't read the hammergun threads REALLY missed out on this one! What beautiful guns and interesting reading. Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas to you all.

[Dean Romig]

In my opinion Austin, a gun's collectibility should stand on the merit of it's own quality and condition but certainly grade should dictate catagory by some degree.

And thank you for that data. Dean

[Jeff Kuss]

Here are a couple of my favorite lifters. The top one is a 12 ga. and the bottom is a 2 frame 10. They are 3 serial numbers apart.

[Richard Flanders]

Great stuff. I love hammer guns. The artistry on them is incredible. Thanks for the great pics everyone and keep them coming. It's a good education for all of us that is much appreciated. Here's my contribution. My 1886 10ga. I'll try to add a shot of the floorplate engraving later.

[E Robert Fabian]

Great looking 10, what grade is it Rich?

[Richard Flanders]

There's a 3 on the rear lug, which I think is the grade #.

[Jack Cronkhite]

and then there's this 1886 10 ga hammer gun :(

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/28884/2334_%285%29.JPG

[Travis Newman]

Jeff what is the serials of the D grade that has the rabbit on the side. I have 16429 that is engraved like the bottom one.

[Jeff Kuss]

So much for my memory, they are 5 numbers off. The top is 16032 and the bottom is 16027.

[Jeff Kuss]

Richard,
The 3 on the back lug would be the frame size. It appears to me to have G engraving. The locks look like my 10 ga G.

[Robin Lewis]

This is a 12ga top action 'P' grade #52875.

[Dean Romig]

Rich, I may be wrong but I think the 3 on the barrel lug is the frame size (but that can best be determined by measuring the distance between the firing pins) and, judging by the engraving and the checkering of the forend I would say that is a Grade 2 or G grade.
It is a beautiful Parker in any case and in great condition. Dean

[Russ Jackson]

I posted pics. of these two Hammer Guns in the Engraving thread ,but I thought I would add them here also in case someone would be interested and miss the other thread ,First guns is Serial #16150, Under lever , I believe to be a D Grade,10 Ga.,30 " Barrels on a # 3 Frame.

[Russ Jackson]

The second Gun is ,Serial #47462 ,A Top lever 10 ,Ga. on a # 3 Frame ,w 32" barrels. Very heavy barrels ,6lb. unstruck weight .I believe this gun to be a D Grade also .

[Robin Lewis]

Russ,

On #16150, is that a fox on the right side?

[Russ Jackson]

Robin; Yes ,It is a Fox and he has a big bushy tail !

[Robin Lewis]

Russ,

I don't think I have seen that before, it's nice. I wonder if someone asked for that or the engraver was just looking for a change of pace? Do you have a letter on the gun?

[Russ Jackson]

Robin; Thank you ,I purchased this gun about 6 months or so ago from one of our own PGCA members, Angel Cruz ,when he advertised it ,it really caught my eye also ,Angel took much better pics. than I did ,the gun is in very, very good condition ,my low price camera doesn't do it justice ,I do not have a letter for the gun and don't know if the engraving was ordered special or not ,but looking at Jeff Kuss's gun and the engraving of the rabbits on page 4 of this thread ,I wish they would have put the running rabbit on my gun just ahead of the Fox !

[Mark Conrad]

Tit3 Hammer

[Mark Conrad]

Tit5 Hammer

[Larry Frey]

Mark thats a beauty! Is that the 16 gage you had at the southern a couple of years ago?

[Mark Conrad]

Larry, that was a 20 not a 16. Here are all 3 with the 20 in the middle. The 20 was a 16 and it has 30" Vulcan barrels on it now. So I guess it is a Vul3 Hammer.

[Russ Jackson]

Mark; All three are absolutely beautiful guns !Thank you for posting ! The wood on the 20 Gauge is incredible !.

[Larry Frey]

Hey Mark, now I know why I can't find a fluid steel barreled hammer gun, it's because you have them all!:banghead:

[Kirk Potter]

I realize this is an 8 year old thread, but damn their are some drool worthy hammer gun pictures.

[Dean Romig]

Mark, please tell us about the top gun in your picture?






.

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Kirk you are right, hammer guns are the best! when I get back from this trip I will post some, Gary